Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges

One thing that i have issues with using ravagers...they compete with my talos and cronos in my heavy support slots...id run 2 but i only have 1 slot available usually.

Thor665 wrote:

Outside of super heavies, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where haywire weaponry is superior to lances.

If you want to cause a glance to anything above AV 10? I like both but there's no argument a haywire blaster is more reliable at actually causing damage.

And that was my answer. Both.

Although, I think I might try three voidravens and full squads of reaver jetbikes with heatlances.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

If you want to cause a glance to anything above AV 10? I like both but there's no argument a haywire blaster is more reliable at actually causing damage.

Well, first off, the lance is actually pretty excellent at gakking up AV 11 also, doing so on a 3+ which is only moderately inferior to a haywire blaster and has a 50% chance to cause a pen, which is pretty solid with an AP 2 weapon and certainly competitive with the 66.67% glance the haywire is offering against AV 11.

Against AV 12+ all the haywire offers is an additional 33% chance to do a glance, while offering 16.67% of a chance less to cause a pen. Pens are sort of pretty cool.

Just to do a quick compare - 5 Scourges vs. 1 Ravager, which is a roughly equivalent cost (120 v. 125).

If I fire them upon a Chimera, let us say.

The Haywires will hit with 2.67 causing 2.22 glances/pens with 0% chance to kill the Chimera.
The Ravager will hit with 2 causing 1 glance/pen with an 11% chance of destroying the Chimera outright with the pen/glance.

Which causes "more damage" really?
One will cause more reliable hull strippage.
One will have a greater chance to obliterate the vehicle as a threat outright.

So, with Scourges I am obligated to buy 2 squads to kill 1 Chimera on average.
With Ravagers I am obligated to buy 3 to be certain of death, on average, but with an individual 11% chance with each one that I wipe the Chimera giving me some action advantage. Also, the Ravagers are more likely to force the Chimera, or any other vehicle, to end up in a situation where they are snap-firing, which again gives me action advantage (functionally they have a 22% chance per hit to force snapfire or destruction of the vehicle - comparatively the haywire blaster has an 11% chance to force snapfire if it hits). To my mind, I'm losing out on glances, but am doubling my chances to disable the vehicle to the point it cannot harm me - and that is far more important to me than a better chance to cause glances. My opponent could toss a glance or two on every vehicle in my army, and if I'm still allowed to fire with everything he hasn't accomplished spit. Snapfire and destruction count for a lot more to my mind when commenting on 'more damage'.

I consider the lances to cause more damage and the haywires to cause more hull point stripping.

Thor665 wrote:

The Haywires will hit with 2.67 causing 2.22 glances/pens with 0% chance to kill the Chimera.
The Ravager will hit with 2 causing 1 glance/pen with an 11% chance of destroying the Chimera outright with the pen/glance.

Don't four haywire blasters have a higher percent of stripping 3 hull points than 11%? Thus destroying it outright? Could be wrong, too drunk to do the math at the moment. How I typically spend my evenings.

And in any situation where a vehicle has one hull point, when is a dark lance better?

Again I like both. Lances are not as reliable.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

The Haywires will hit with 2.67 causing 2.22 glances/pens with 0% chance to kill the Chimera.
The Ravager will hit with 2 causing 1 glance/pen with an 11% chance of destroying the Chimera outright with the pen/glance.

Don't four haywire blasters have a higher percent of stripping 3 hull points than 11%? Thus destroying it outright? Could be wrong, too drunk to do the math at the moment. How I typically spend my evenings.

If my math is right, they have a ~74% chance of stripping 3 HPs.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

And in any situation where a vehicle has one hull point, when is a dark lance better?

Well, you could argue that it might be worth shooting a single raider Dark Lance at said vehicle first - since then you won't be wasting multiple haywire shots to strip a single HP.

At the risk of being naive, why is this presented as an either/or choice? We can have up to six FA slots along with our three HS slots. Why not take both? Ravagers and Scourges are our two most reliable AT platforms and given that AT can be a struggle for DE as an army, it seems like taking a mix of Haywire and Dark Lances fills this need perfectly.

sweetbacon wrote:

At the risk of being naive, why is this presented as an either/or choice?  We can have up to six FA slots along with our three HS slots.  Why not take both?   Ravagers and Scourges are our two most reliable AT platforms and given that AT can be a struggle for DE as an army, it seems like taking a mix of Haywire and Dark Lances fills this need perfectly.  

Having both is probably a good idea, but it's still useful to know which (if either) is best.

Also, not everyone will be using the special DE FoC.

Personally, I think the bonuses are garbage compared to Objective Secured.

50% of games (night fight) giving a couple of models a 5+ save, compared to Obj Secured is truly terrible. The only reason to take the Realspace Raider detachment is if you need more than 3 FA slots. I don't ever see that need, but then I don't use Jetbikes.

I feel this is a lot like the Venom vs. Raider question. They provide different things and shouldn't really be compared (in a vacuum).

Haywire Blasters offer reliability with very little variance in expected result, with minor versatility for AI. Dark Lances, on the other hand, offer more potential damage, greater versatility, but fluctuate wildly in results.

The potential to explode a vehicle or ID a character is great, but I find reliability to be equally nice in a game so full of chance.

Hellstrom wrote:

50% of games (night fight) giving a couple of models a 5+ save, compared to Obj Secured is truly terrible.

Yeah. Maybe if it made it Night Fight automatically and gave us Shrouded. But, 5+ or 6+ cover... what's the point?

My Venoms get a 5++ save as standard - which can't be affected by Ignores Cover. My other vehicles can get equal or better cover by hiding behind cover on the first turn. And, if one of my vehicles is in that much danger, I'll just jink anyway for a better save.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Don't four haywire blasters have a higher percent of stripping 3 hull points than 11%? Thus destroying it outright?

Yes, but you're mixing your math there by taking a probability and then comparing it to an average and calling the probability 'better'. They are two different types of numbers.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

And in any situation where a vehicle has one hull point, when is a dark lance better?

Besides the already mentioned 'waste of shots' one - I would also add 'distance to target' wherein if the enemy is 24.1" away from your shooting unit a lance is superior to a haywire weapon.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Again I like both. Lances are not as reliable.

I agree with this - I like both too. I also think the haywire gun is more reliable at doing what it does. I do think Ravagers are superior to haywire Scourges in TAC lists, however, and build accordingly.

Hellstrom wrote:

50% of games (night fight) giving a couple of models a 5+ save, compared to Obj Secured is truly terrible.  The only reason to take the Realspace Raider detachment is if you need more than 3 FA slots.  I don't ever see that need, but then I don't use Jetbikes.

I use it frequently. The extra FA slots buy gunboats for my Eldar allies.

Since my Allied Jetbikes already have Obj Sec, I don't think I miss out on much by not having it on my warriors.

Quote :

I agree with this - I like both too. I also think the haywire gun is more reliable at doing what it does. I do think Ravagers are superior to haywire Scourges in TAC lists, however, and build accordingly.

That probably depends on the list honestly...whrn running talos and cronos builds...there isnt much room for ravagers which is my problem these days. Ultimately for me its a matter of where I have room to squeeze in dedicated units...not ideal but i love my grots and talos.

Why would you not run Talos/Cronos builds out of the Coven book, specifically the formations?

sweetbacon wrote:

At the risk of being naive, why is this presented as an either/or choice?  We can have up to six FA slots along with our three HS slots.  Why not take both?   Ravagers and Scourges are our two most reliable AT platforms and given that AT can be a struggle for DE as an army, it seems like taking a mix of Haywire and Dark Lances fills this need perfectly.  

I actually kind of agree with this, unlike the Venom and Raider thread you don't have to pick one over the other, that's why an overwhelming consensus is to take both, while the other poll is pretty split. At the end of the day if you're just relying on Ravagers for your AT, you'll be sad, that said if you're just relying on your scourges for AT you will also be sad. A much more interesting debate would be something like: Scourges vs Razorwings which I would also pick both, but at least when you're looking at your list you have to make a decision of which to take over the other. Both fill voids in the army and unfortunately they take up the same FOC slot. If for some reason Scourges were elite this would indeed be a perfect world.

Don't forget the Reaper. If forge world is allowed

Thor665 wrote:

Why would you not run Talos/Cronos builds out of the Coven book, specifically the formations?

If you are limited to 2 detachments (tourny standard) its a matter of choosing which to take...i take grotesquerie personally and a cad. If you dont have this limitation then more power to you! I tried the haemie/talos/cronos squad once and felt it lacked since it was a weird mixed bag of units in one squad...its not bad just takes getting used to. The only other talos formation is the 5x one which is awesome but requires that points investment. I think those 5 with triple ravager and troops would be brutal.

Dark Artisan is the mixed one. I would flat out call that formation 'good' especially with the Haem as your warlord.

2 detachments still gives you a lot of leeway, even for bringing Talos and Ravagers in the same list. Which will, yes, be expensive, but if you're building a list with Talosi as an investment the only way to make it viable is to bite the bullet and spend the points - you've already made the value call of 'not MSU' at that stage.

I'm not sure I really see much value in Grotesquerie + Talos/Cronos though. Just drop the Grotesquerie for more Talos/Cronos in that case - you're still trying to spam multi wound, high toughness critters, what does it matter which you choose? Functionally the Talos is probably the better choice if that's your baliwick - I think Grotesquerie actually favors MSU, myself, and wouldn't combo it with Talos.

I think they serve different rolls ai in grots and multiroll area of denial in the talos) personally and offer a solid1, 2 punch. Im having fun with it so far but i havent faced much mech...ultimately grots and talos can assault vehicles and do decent at it.

Despite my prejudices in units though i agree you can focus one and still use ravagers. I may one day drop the cronos and add a 3rd talos to the squad and take 2 ravagers...though iys tempting to go dissies haha.

I voted for Scourges.

But then, I own two units of them and only one Ravager so that's only logical. I don't have much luck with my Ravager as he's usually jinking. People really hate Ravagers. Perhaps it's due to the old Ravager spam that people used to bring? I don't know. I just have better luck with my birdboys (and birdgirls).

Personally I see Scourges and Ravagers as too very very different units, hence its very difficult to measure one against the other in terms of effectiveness they are both called upon to accomplish tasks in entirely different ways. Whether by deepstrike or a crafty, terrain hugging jaunt across the board Scourges are called upon to get into enemy territory and hunt a tough unit down. The Ravager on the other hand is always prowling on the edge of things wiping out any unit it can, but rarely taking big risks to do so... even in multiples.

I think work really well together... Its not an either or situation for me. Two Ravagers and a squad of Scourges (perhaps with deepstriking true born to back em up) is ideal to me. I wouldn't put all my eggs in either basket.

I prefer the ravager seeing how it is more versatile and tends to be more survivable. Scourges are pretty much always wiped out after shooting their first shot, great for spreading terror, but no so reliable.

Elzadar wrote:

I prefer the ravager seeing how it is more versatile and tends to be more survivable. Scourges are pretty much always wiped out after shooting their first shot, great for spreading terror, but no so reliable.

Two weapon choices aren't what I would call "versatile", especially when compared to a squad with seven (or at least four viable ones).

Anyway, your problem might be that you are playing your Scourges wrong. They are too expensive to be used for suicide attacks. Instead of deepstriking them next to their target and hoping they get just one good salvo off, you should rather move them into cover first and shoot from there. And their wings should be used not to get them towards, but away from the enemy.
Don't look at Scourges as a jump pack unit that can take heavy weapons, but as a heavy weapon unit that happens to have jump packs.

Rokuro wrote:

Elzadar wrote:

I prefer the ravager seeing how it is more versatile and tends to be more survivable. Scourges are pretty much always wiped out after shooting their first shot, great for spreading terror, but no so reliable.

Two weapon choices aren't what I would call "versatile", especially when compared to a squad with seven (or at least four viable ones).

I suspect he meant versatile in that Dark Lances are effective against a variety of units, whilst Haywire Blasters are garbage against non-vehicles.

Rokuro wrote:

Instead of deepstriking them next to their target and hoping they get just one good salvo off, you should rather move them into cover first and shoot from there.

Can they choose not to jump, to avoid dangerous terrain tests?

Though, I suspect cover won't help much - even in ruins they're 5 T3 models with 4+ saves.

Rokuro wrote:

Instead of deepstriking them next to their target and hoping they get just one good salvo off, you should rather move them into cover first and shoot from there.

Can they choose not to jump, to avoid dangerous terrain tests?

Though, I suspect cover won't help much - even in ruins they're 5 T3 models with 4+ saves.[/quote]

Of course. Every jump infantry model can chose not to jump.

That 4+ armor save will be ignored by many weapons. Having a 4+ cover save is better than having to relying on their 6+ invul save in that situation.