Dark Lance Ravagers vs Haywire Scourges

Expletive Deleted wrote:

a whole four more people prefer ravagers to scourges, and that might just be four old farts who've been using them since their inception.

Nah, Thor just voted half a dozen times.

Rokuro wrote:

Anyway, your problem might be that you are playing your Scourges wrong. They are too expensive to be used for suicide attacks. Instead of deepstriking them next to their target and hoping they get just one good salvo off, you should rather move them into cover first and shoot from there. And their wings should be used not to get them towards, but away from the enemy.
Don't look at Scourges as a jump pack unit that can take heavy weapons, but as a heavy weapon unit that happens to have jump packs.

This sounds pretty intriguing, however the problem I have with this is with range. Scourges only have 24" range on their blasters, unlike other heavy weapon units which usually have 36-72" range. Therefore you need to move the scourges forward turn 1 in order to get into range, in which you use them as a jump pack unit. If you then don't have the right cover, then they will be shot to bits afterwards.

Erebus wrote:

Expletive Deleted wrote:

a whole four more people prefer ravagers to scourges, and that might just be four old farts who've been using them since their inception.

Nah, Thor just voted half a dozen times.

Cant remember if this has been said but there is some strength in the Haywire scourge over the ravager if shots have been fired. Bare with me. Not that scourges are more durable, but if say you have your 4+ save followed by fnp, you might end up with a couple left which can still dish out some damage. Say you are forced into jinking with a ravager (hit by melta, laacannon whatever) if you survive you will only be snapshooting. Perhaps a small nugget and situation dependent. I would still say both is a good balance overall though if you are up against a lot of heavy tanks in your groups.

I like the 1-2 punch and flexibility afforded by using both Ravagers and Scourges.  Ravagers are our best turn one AT due to their 42 inch threat range.  Depending on the board set up, Ravagers may be the only thing able to reach out and touch opposing armor on the first turn.  Plus, if I get a shaken/stunned result, I have the option to shoot my other Ravagers and/or Scourges at another target.  That's where the real value of the Ravager is, in my opinion.

If I absolutely need a high threat vehicle removed like a Land Raider filled with killy things, a Las Predator, Knight, Wave Serpent, Siccaron(sp?), then I'm pumping 8-12 HWB shots into it to wreck it.  However if I'm facing something like a Rhino/Razor Rush or lots of AV 11-12 vehicles that all present the same level of threat, then Ravagers are useful if I can shake/stun/immobilize a few of them to reduce their capability next turn and buy me some time to take out the opposing army one piece at a time.

Elzadar wrote:

Rokuro wrote:

Anyway, your problem might be that you are playing your Scourges wrong. They are too expensive to be used for suicide attacks. Instead of deepstriking them next to their target and hoping they get just one good salvo off, you should rather move them into cover first and shoot from there. And their wings should be used not to get them towards, but away from the enemy.
Don't look at Scourges as a jump pack unit that can take heavy weapons, but as a heavy weapon unit that happens to have jump packs.

This sounds pretty intriguing, however the problem I have with this is with range. Scourges only have 24" range on their blasters, unlike other heavy weapon units which usually have 36-72" range. Therefore you need to move the scourges forward turn 1 in order to get into range, in which you use them as a jump pack unit. If you then don't have the right cover, then they will be shot to bits afterwards.

You deepstrike them. So you threaten basically the whole table. They also cant be shot (unless auspexesque equipment) before they tickle the tank to death.
After they did their job its your job to present better targets then scourges for your enemy to shoot at (4+/6++ is still pretty good for DE standards).
I do like my blasterborn and an occasional single ravager more than the haywire scourges, but against some armies I do want them. Thats basically because if they blow up one tank they paied for themselves and each additional model is just a bonus.
Till now its at least one leman russ per game (in 3 of these games the Warlord) .

Yeah I think deepstriking them is the way to go. Especially if they have buddies. I deepstruck mine and they killed three tanks along side my deepstriking wraithguard (who only killed a contemptor in comparison) and they actually went completely ignored till the game ended on turn 6. I actually like the idea of them deepstriking with venom mounted blaster-born as buddies and perhaps a WWP Archon and Grots. I think DE can completley overwhelm you with deepstriking which is pretty new to the army. Besides it'll take huge pressure off your raiders, ravagers and even regular taloi/cronos shambling up the board.

My AT would consist of this

2x Lance Ravagers
2x Reavers w/ Heat Lances and Caltrops
1x Scourges w/ HWB
1x Blasterborn

or

3x Lance Ravagers
1x Reavers w/ Heat Lances and Caltrops
1x Scourges w/ HWB
1x Blasterborn

It definitely seems to me that people prefer Dark Lances over Haywire blasters in a TAC setting, as they can be used to troubleshoot heavy infantry/MC's when there are no vehicles available. In the last game I played, they brought footslogging infantry and no vehicles. I used my Dark Lances to pick off infantry and take potshots at their Warlord, forcing him to LoS! the inevitable wounds to his mates, slowly thinning out his Warlord's squad until we could drown him with volume of Splinter fire.

I'm rather new to tabletop, but I'm assuming people generally don't run Dark Lance Scourge because of the Heavy factor, correct? Otherwise they would seem like a happy medium.

SweaterKittens wrote:

I'm rather new to tabletop, but I'm assuming people generally don't run Dark Lance Scourge because of the Heavy factor, correct? Otherwise they would seem like a happy medium.

Well, that and the cost.

A minimum squad of scourges with 4 Dark Lances is 160pts.

So, if you consider that you're paying 40pts per Dark Lance, a Ravager is basically paying 5pts for the ability to move and fire, whilst ignoring S4 (or lower) weapons. It just seems like a much more efficient way to get Dark Lances.