Dark eldar homebrew ( or Balanced 40k and you)

Thanks for the reply Ryu.

Yeah, wyche suit is awesome, that's why I asked. I was hoping that it didn't just replace the kabalite armour. For the combat drugs, and contraband, do you need to purchase combat drugs to unlock contraband, or can u just buy contraband?

I'm excited to try the rules out, and just play an assault army again. I only get to play like once a month because of kids and life, so when I do play, I appreciate it being fun. And that's what these new rules bring; at least in my opinion. I'm kinda like Justin from the last pod cast. Having multiple kids has really put a time restraints on when I can play, which is my favorite part of the hobby. Thanks again

Quote :

Comparing Trueborn the Fire Dragons in the Anti-Material role, Fire Dragons are more efficient and durable...which they should be, Fire Dragons are kinda the aspect of the Melta-Gun...that's their one job, let Fire Dragons keep their hat. (Comparing a Generalist unit with a Specialist unit...)

Which is part of the problem.
Fire Dragons are more efficient (+1 vehicle damage, BS5, Meltabombs, Fusion guns) and durabe (3+ armor). And are way CHEAPER despite all these advantages.
Even the freaking exach adds +1 BS/WS/I/A, a free reroll and an additional wound for the same points as we get +1Ld and +1A

The Shredder wrote:

Ryu Takeda wrote:

Thanks for pointing out the typo...

As for the points cost...well...to compare them to fire warriors, Trueborn are +2 WS, +1 BS, +1A and +2 Ld...a comparable gun (not quite the power of a pulse weapon for MEQ or lower, but poison is awesome), and Trueborn have Wraith-plate standard...giving them to same save, all for the bargain bin price of being 2 pts more expensive per model.  they might need to go up in points slightly if you want to compare them to Tau Fire Warriors xD (not to mention Trueborn have weapons options).

That's really not a good comparison.

Firstly, the Tau codex is a 6th edition one - so I'm not sure you should be comparing them to the newer books - especially when all the 7th edition books from Necrons onward received massive buffs.

Second, Fire Warriors are troops, not elites.

Although, if we are doing comparisons with Tau, can we compare our 18" S6 melta to their 18" S8 melta?

The Fire Warrior Comparison was just in response to The Strange Dark One's Post comparing them, so...I did

As for Comparing the Tau Fusion Blaster to the Heat Lance.
A heat lance is a 10 point upgrade, 18" S6 AP1 Lance, Melta
Fusion Blaster is a 15 point option (20 effective in the case of stealth suits), 18" S8 AP1 Melta

Nothing really seems broken here

The Shredder wrote:

Ryu Takeda wrote:

Comparing Trueborn the Fire Dragons in the Anti-Material role, Fire Dragons are more efficient and durable...which they should be, Fire Dragons are kinda the aspect of the Melta-Gun...that's their one job, let Fire Dragons keep their hat.  (Comparing a Generalist unit with a Specialist unit...)

But that's the thing - what else do Trueborn really do? It's not like they bring any unique weapons. Really, just about any weapon they bring can be done better by another unit. Ravagers are better Dark Lance platforms, Venoms are better for Splinter Cannons etc. Making a unit pay extra for roles it sucks at anyway seems a little counter-intuitive.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

Comparing Trueborn the Fire Dragons in the Anti-Material role, Fire Dragons are more efficient and durable...which they should be, Fire Dragons are kinda the aspect of the Melta-Gun...that's their one job, let Fire Dragons keep their hat. (Comparing a Generalist unit with a Specialist unit...)

Which is part of the problem.
Fire Dragons are more efficient (+1 vehicle damage, BS5, Meltabombs, Fusion guns) and durabe (3+ armor). And are way CHEAPER despite all these advantages.
Even the freaking exach adds +1 BS/WS/I/A, a free reroll and an additional wound for the same points as we get +1Ld and +1A

Also Point taken, problem then lies I believe with the weapons cost, not with the unit (in the case of Anti-material in particular)...Will update Blasters/Blast Pistols to be 10 point options on most applicable units (Stay tuned for full changelog), that brings them closer together.

The Shredder wrote:

Ryu Takeda wrote:

While I wouldn't be opposed to Trueborn having access to Special Wargear on all models...I'm not sure about Heavy weapons (Dark Lances are a hell of a drug) available on all of them, nor am I sure eliminating heavy weapons options would be the best thing for the unit...I'll consult the rest of the team and see what they think, but that's just my initial reaction.

I'm not sure about eliminating heavy weapon options - mainly because I just don't see the point (Warriors can take them after all). As above, I don't think Trueborn are remotely worth it for their heavy weapons, but on the other hand I don't really see the point in removing them either.

Ryu Takeda wrote:

As for the Heatlance being added to their option list...Maybe? not particularly game breaking...but the weapon itself might need to be looked at in relation to the blaster to ensure that (if they are to be the same point cost) on is not objectively better than the other.

The problem there is that Blasters and Dark Lances have been made worse each edition. Hull Points made one-shot weapons a lot less useful, compared to mid-strength, multiple-shot weapons - and 7th edition went a step further and halved the chance for AP2 to explode a vehicle. Basically, there's a reason people want more access to Haywire/melta - lances just aren't good weapons.


Actually, going back to the heavy weapon thing for a moment, one thing I thought recently is that the PfP table seems in dire need of Relentless. Mainly because they seem to want our shooty units to jump into melee late-game, but then it seems silly that we have to sacrifice their shooting to do so. But then, I think PfP needs a complete change anyway. I just thought I'd mention it.

Relentless is the whole reason we did the changes to Scourges, to make them actual heavy weapons squad.  Please note: I'm not against Relentless on PfP table, especially for something like a Kabalite Table, just don't want to step on the toes of too many units that have already been assigned that as a role

Nariaklizhar wrote:

Thanks for the reply Ryu.
Yeah, wyche suit is awesome, that's why I asked. I was hoping that it didn't just replace the kabalite armour. For the combat drugs, and contraband, do you need to purchase combat drugs to unlock contraband, or can u just buy contraband?

You DO NOT need to purchase combat drugs on the Archon to purchase the contraband upgrade, but note that the Archon model will not gain the benefits of the drugs they provide to their Wych Cult Based Units.

Also, I look forward to seeing how those of you who help us test these rules out further do with them in your local gaming group

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

Comparing Trueborn the Fire Dragons in the Anti-Material role, Fire Dragons are more efficient and durable...which they should be, Fire Dragons are kinda the aspect of the Melta-Gun...that's their one job, let Fire Dragons keep their hat. (Comparing a Generalist unit with a Specialist unit...)

Which is part of the problem.
Fire Dragons are more efficient (+1 vehicle damage, BS5, Meltabombs, Fusion guns) and durabe (3+ armor). And are way CHEAPER despite all these advantages.
Even the freaking exach adds +1 BS/WS/I/A, a free reroll and an additional wound for the same points as we get +1Ld and +1A

The other aspect of course is that, despite what many people will tell you, Fire Dragons aren't even specialised.

Their obvious target is vehicles, but they're also great against MCs, TEQ, MEQ etc.

Really, unless you're against some sort of Green Tide army, there's going to be a good target for a squad of 5+ meltaguns.

Also, unlike Trueborn, they come with melta bombs as standard. Did you somehow fail to kill a vehicle with 5 meltagun shots? Not to worry - just charge it and get 5 more melta attacks to finish the job.

The Shredder wrote:

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Quote :

Comparing Trueborn the Fire Dragons in the Anti-Material role, Fire Dragons are more efficient and durable...which they should be, Fire Dragons are kinda the aspect of the Melta-Gun...that's their one job, let Fire Dragons keep their hat. (Comparing a Generalist unit with a Specialist unit...)

Which is part of the problem.
Fire Dragons are more efficient (+1 vehicle damage, BS5, Meltabombs, Fusion guns) and durabe (3+ armor). And are way CHEAPER despite all these advantages.
Even the freaking exach adds +1 BS/WS/I/A, a free reroll and an additional wound for the same points as we get +1Ld and +1A

The other aspect of course is that, despite what many people will tell you, Fire Dragons aren't even specialised.

Their obvious target is vehicles, but they're also great against MCs, TEQ, MEQ etc.

Really, unless you're against some sort of Green Tide army, there's going to be a good target for a squad of 5+ meltaguns.

Also, unlike Trueborn, they come with melta bombs as standard. Did you somehow fail to kill a vehicle with 5 meltagun shots? Not to worry - just charge it and get 5 more melta attacks to finish the job.

Fire Dragons are a specialized unit...they are a specialized anti-material unit...Luckily for their controlling player, infantry models happen to be made out of material as well xD

On the subject of the Anti-Vehicle Melee, I didn't want to increase the per model cost of Trueborn any more than it already was, so that's why they have Haywires as an option rather than integrated into their profile (Since Haywire is a bit awesome)

I think it's fair to say fire dragons are broken, especially with that aspect host detachment. Almost every eldar player will include at least one unit of them in their army. And if they don't they are getting their antitank from other similarly broken units. I don't want our trueborn be like fire dragons, but trueborn are considerably worse that fire dragons in the current GW Dark Eldar codex. So far, I like the minor changes you have made, I just think they need a bit more help. I'm gonna get a game in with them the way you currently have them set up, but I have a feeling they are still gonna be over priced for what they do. They need to have a nitch, a specific thing they are good at, not average at everything. Let's face it, we all use them in groups of 4 with blasters.

@Nariaklizhar: Just because we tend to use them as a Fire Dragon Lite doesn't mean that they should be relegated to that. Make Shredders more useful by say, giving them pinning and I would deploy 5 of them with 4 shredders alongside some Wyches. No overwatch for the Wych charge.

CurstAlchemist wrote:

@Nariaklizhar: Just because we tend to use them as a Fire Dragon Lite doesn't mean that they should be relegated to that. Make Shredders more useful by say, giving them pinning and I would deploy 5 of them with 4 shredders alongside some Wyches. No overwatch for the Wych charge.

On a 12" weapon? Even if you give it pinning, rending and ID I would not use it over a blaster.

So is the fluff behind the wychsuit that it is less restrickting, therefore able to move better, prevnting getting hit? Looking at the wychesuit again, I'm having a hard time justifying that it adds to the kabalite armor. So you can theoretically take a skyboard and get the benefits of a wychsuit, but add some wraith armour. So you are adding armour to the wychsuit but are still mobile enough to receive that minus one to bs and ws?

Nariaklizhar wrote:

So is the fluff behind the wychsuit that it is less restrickting, therefore able to move better, prevnting getting hit? Looking at the wychesuit again, I'm having a hard time justifying that it adds to the kabalite armor. So you can theoretically take a skyboard and get the benefits of a wychsuit, but add some wraith armour. So you are adding armour to the wychsuit but are still mobile enough to receive that minus one to bs and ws?

This is one of the Fluff-Crunch disconnects that I feel needed to exist.  We didn't want to have there be a disadvantage to joining an archon to a group of Reavers/Hellions.  At the same time, we didn't want to have you be able to just join an IC to a squad of say Grotesques (or worse yet, Eldar Wraithguard/Warlock-Seer Council) and have the entire squad gain the benefit by just having 1 Wychsuit equipped IC in with them (Hence a squad equipped entirely with Wychsuits).  This results in a kinda weird disconnect, you can go with the Wychsuit's ability while on the Archon more represents the general evasiveness of the platform they're on (Skyboard or Reaver Jetbike which are the only way for the Archon to get a wychsuit anyway) while providing the same evasive benefit to the Wyches and Bloodbrides that they desperately needed, while the Wyches, Bloodbrides, and Succubus still have their own Dodge abilities as well.

It could be represented by a special rule rather than wargear, but the wargear was what we felt was the simplest option at the time

As a question, couldn't you just say the wychsuit replaces the Archon's kabalite armour?

Speaking personally, I don't think I'd miss that 5+ armour save.

We could...but...at least I don't see much of a problem with a T5 Eldar Jetbike Model with a 3+ Armor Save that imposes a -1 To Hit on enemies for 170 points before any special weapons and/or invulnerable saves are added...Grimm agrees with you that he wouldn't miss the 5+ armor save (especially since the Skyboard and Jetbike provide you saves)...so the question is, do you find the potential defense of stacking the effect of a wychsuit (Does not necessarily need to be through the wargear itself) with a 3+ armor to be overwhelmingly powerful or out for fluff?

the problem with replacing the Kabalite armour is the wording for the other armor upgrades:"replace Kabalite armor with one of the following..." so if you take a skyboard and now have a wychesuit,  and wanted to take these armor upgrades (wraith-plate for example) you can't now. which I'm actually ok with because we still have the clonefiled and shadow field.

another thing i noticed is that you do not allow the archon to take both contraband and warlord lab cunning. what is the reasoning for that?

Ah, fair enough.

One other thing - I never thought I'd say this, but are you perhaps making the Archon Ancient a bit too strong? if he's going to have Eternal Warrior, then perhaps he should be T3 and 3 wounds? I'm just wondering if he should really be as tough as a Chapter Master (who probably shouldn't have 4 wounds t begin with...).

Could maybe add IWND if you want to represent durability in a different way.

Also, have you any idea yet what the Archon Ancient is likely to cost? I ask on account of being nosey.

Nariaklizhar wrote:

another thing i noticed is that you do not allow the archon to take both contraband and warlord lab cunning. what is the reasoning for that?

Its to put a point tax on Passive Global-level force-multipliers.

The Shredder wrote:

Ah, fair enough.

One other thing - I never thought I'd say this, but are you perhaps making the Archon Ancient a bit too strong? if he's going to have Eternal Warrior, then perhaps he should be T3 and 3 wounds? I'm just wondering if he should really be as tough as a Chapter Master (who probably shouldn't have 4 wounds t begin with...).

Could maybe add IWND if you want to represent durability in a different way.

Also, have you any idea yet what the Archon Ancient is likely to cost? I ask on account of being nosey.

I like the T3, 3 Wound IWND with Eternal Warrior Idea...but that is still a squishy pseudo-LoW...will have to re-evaluate points cost to implement it

Currently the Ancient Archon is a 45 point upgrade to the Archon, which may seem expensive, but with a general increase to stats across the board, not to mention the Eternal Warrior and being able to select a Warlord Trait (And even get 2 if you want to pay points cost for Labyrinthine Cunning)...I'll theory-craft some more possible statlines, T3 IWNT Eternal Warrior W3 I could see being as low as 35 points, but I'm not sure yet

i think the Ancient Archon is properly priced and has the appropriate stats. I added up the point cost to what i think would be a fun, excellent close combat HQ and it was over 200pts, which is crazy expensive. you can give the Ancient a venom blade and a few other cheaper wargear options, keep him at around 175pts, and i think he is reasonable. For him to be toughness 3 , or even strength 3 too would put him below wracks and wyches. He is supposed to be the flipping man, and if guys want to fork over 200pts to get him that way, why not.

Im still confused about hair trigger. If it is how I am interpretating it, it may be broken. You said, "3. The purpose of having the Hair Trigger special rule is to grant easy access to poison attacks in Close Combat" so does that mean all my wyches, at 10 pts each can wound anything at 4+? And at 15pts a pop can wound anything on 2+? Firstly, wracks already have poison in close combat. That's kinda their thing. Secondly, for that kind of ability, it should be a point increase. Nothing big, but like 2pts a model. What do u think?

Nariaklizhar wrote:

i think the Ancient Archon is properly priced and has the appropriate stats. I added up the point cost to what i think would be a fun, excellent close combat HQ and it was over 200pts, which is crazy expensive. you can give the Ancient a venom blade and a few other cheaper wargear options, keep him at around 175pts, and i think he is reasonable. For him to be toughness 3 , or even strength 3 too would put him below wracks and wyches. He is supposed to be the flipping man, and if guys want to fork over 200pts to get him that way, why not.

I can maybe accept T4, but 4 wounds just seems wrong to me.

Do you really see nothing silly about an Archon having more wounds than a Talos?

The Shredder wrote:

Nariaklizhar wrote:

i think the Ancient Archon is properly priced and has the appropriate stats. I added up the point cost to what i think would be a fun, excellent close combat HQ and it was over 200pts, which is crazy expensive. you can give the Ancient a venom blade and a few other cheaper wargear options, keep him at around 175pts, and i think he is reasonable. For him to be toughness 3 , or even strength 3 too would put him below wracks and wyches. He is supposed to be the flipping man, and if guys want to fork over 200pts to get him that way, why not.

I can maybe accept T4, but 4 wounds just seems wrong to me.

Do you really see nothing silly about an Archon having more wounds than a Talos?

To me, that means the Talos has too few wounds, not the Archon too many.

Fair point actually.

I think the Ancient Archon sounds very reasonable and I don't really see how IWND on an Archon would make sense. On an Ancient Haemonculus, maybe.

Only thing I could imagine is that rather than getting high on Souls with the Soul-Trap he will use the energy in a way to heal physical wounds. But I don't know what to think of that since they not supposed to be a front-line warrior but instead be the cunning mastermind with epic wargear to demonstrate his status and self protection.


However, I still don't really see a use for a Haemonculus...
Sure, you get some useful abilities for 50 pts, but seeing all the interesting possibilities with an Archon, I don't think I'd ever take one.

I guess they can have their use, but wouldn't it be interesting and fitting if at least the Ancient Haemonculus had the Biomancy Psychic power?

Naturally, this wouldn't be powers generated from the warp but rather a relfection of an Haemonculus' access to all kind of flesh altering wargear and bio weapons.
It makes sense considering that Haemonculi have countless kinds of bio-weapons and horrdenous apparatus in general.

And I can't imagine that any Haemonculus of status would go out on a Raid without sufficient means to properly to spread terror and cause destruction (I also think that the Dark Gate could make a fine str D weapon).


I just think that there is much more to the Haemonculi than what they can do right now and its a same that nobody does them justice.
And in the end it wouldn't even necessarily need to be a psychic power and could also just be cheap and limitless access to wargear which has the same/similar effect.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I think the Ancient Archon sounds very reasonable and I don't really see how IWND on an Archon would make sense.

I thought their soul-drinking (or whatever you call it) made them heal faster, but perhaps I'm misremembering.

I'm certainly not an expert in DE lore.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Only thing I could imagine is that rather than getting high on Souls with the Soul-Trap he will use the energy in a way to heal physical wounds. But I don't know what to think of that since they not supposed to be a front-line warrior but instead be the cunning mastermind with epic wargear to demonstrate his status and self protection.

Well, front-line is a matter for debate. I think anything on the table is, for all intents and purposes, on the front line.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

However, I still don't really see a use for a Haemonculus...
Sure, you get some useful abilities for 50 pts, but seeing all the interesting possibilities with an Archon, I don't think I'd ever take one.

I guess they can have their use, but wouldn't it be interesting and fitting if at least the Ancient Haemonculus had the Biomancy Psychic power?

Naturally, this wouldn't be powers generated from the warp but rather a relfection of an Haemonculus' access to all kind of flesh altering wargear and bio weapons.
It makes sense considering that Haemonculi have countless kinds of bio-weapons and horrdenous apparatus in general.

And I can't imagine that any Haemonculus of status would go out on a Raid without sufficient means to properly to spread terror and cause destruction (I also think that the Dark Gate could make a fine str D weapon).


I just think that there is much more to the Haemonculi than what they can do right now and its a same that nobody does them justice.
And in the end it wouldn't even necessarily need to be a psychic power and could also just be cheap and limitless access to wargear which has the same/similar effect.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think DE should get psychic powers.

But, here's a different suggestion - what if Haemonculi could choose to forgo shooting and instead restore a wound to themselves or another model in their squad?

Regardless, I think another issue is that the Ancients are paying for combat abilities that they can't make use of because their melee weapons are all pretty awful. I think they should either be a little cheaper (40 for Haemonculi, 60 for Ancients) or else have access to some more 'solid' weapons - like Power Axes.

One other thing to consider is a way to give Haemonculi a bit of extra protection - something like Clone Field or an invulnerable save.

The wound healing thing would have to be something to investigate...it would fit the flavor of the DE a lot, but that's a force multiplier issue, so would be inherintly difficult to calculate the value of it xD.

As for the Power Axe, I thought they had Power Weapon listed in their profile?

Eternal Warrior for the Ancient is something I'm looking at (since getting One shot by broadsides is pretty powerful).

Still looking into the Hair Trigger rule for the Succubus/Wych/Bloodbride, want Wyches to be useful in CC, but don't want to step on the Wracks toes too much

Ryu Takeda wrote:

The wound healing thing would have to be something to investigate...it would fit the flavor of the DE a lot, but that's a force multiplier issue, so would be inherintly difficult to calculate the value of it xD.

Fair enough.

Ryu Takeda wrote:

As for the Power Axe, I thought they had Power Weapon listed in their profile?

Good point, I either misread or was thinking of the current DE book.

Ryu Takeda wrote:

Eternal Warrior for the Ancient is something I'm looking at (since getting One shot by broadsides is pretty powerful).

I find 'death of a thousand stings' to be just as much of an issue, tbh. When your only save is a 5++ (from FNP), it's pretty easy to just fail 3 and suddenly your character is gone.

Not that I'd object to EW, mind.

Ryu Takeda wrote:

Still looking into the Hair Trigger rule for the Succubus/Wych/Bloodbride, want Wyches to be useful in CC, but don't want to step on the Wracks toes too much

Honestly, I'd suggest removing/replacing that rule. I can see what you're going for, but I don't think it'll help them. What you need to remember is that Venoms can already pump a ton of poison shots into an enemy from 36" away, and warriors can pour out 20 TL poison shots from 12" away. So, having to get into combat to get 10 poison shots/attacks doesn't really seem like a good investment.

That's how I look at it, anyway. If I'm missing something, please correct me.

The Shredder wrote:

I thought their soul-drinking (or whatever you call it) made them heal faster, but perhaps I'm misremembering. ...

Well, in a way they do. After all Haemonculi need an aweful amount of pain to recreate a body in one of his tubes. However, I always thought that this has more to do with their natural regeneration abilities being boosted considerably.

In the books I always had the impression that pain is mostly associated with cheating time and becoming younger (therefore, having better regenerative abilities).

The Shredder wrote:

Well, front-line is a matter for debate. I think anything on the table is, for all intents and purposes, on the front line.

I guess you are rigt ^^. But part of my reasoning was also what Ryu said already.

The Shredder wrote:

But, here's a different suggestion - what if Haemonculi could choose to forgo shooting and instead restore a wound to themselves or another model in their squad?

Yes, I've been thinking about that too.
In the books it was nicely depicted that a Wrack could use his syringes and "medical equippment" to heal heavy wounds in seconds. But obviously they can't resurrect the dead on the fly and neither could a Haemonculus do (however, he might be able with weird wargear).

Restoring wounds would only ever be useful on Grotesques. So, considering covenite healing abilities I think it would make more sense if a Haemonculus would increase the FNP rule by one, similar to the Cronos.

The Shredder wrote:

I know what you're saying, but I don't think DE should get psychic powers.

That's why I said that it could be just wargear as well that gives us such options.
It could be worded like this: "Every Ancient Haemonculus may take 6 items from the Ancient Paraphernalia list", an item may be chosen multiple times and each item can only be used once for X pts.

I was just recently reading though the Biomancy powers and could only think why our Haemonculi don't have something like that.

Enfeeble, Life-Leech, Endurance, Haemorrhage, Iron Arm and even Smite sound like things you would expect every Haemonculus is capable of in one way or another.

Now, it wouldn't need to be only those powers and restoring a wound in a unit (or simply preventing taking an unsaved wound) could be in the Ancient Paraphernalia list. Maybe something like a sacrificial Nightmare doll, or an emergancy infusion of concentrated pain/soul energy.

The Shredder wrote:

Regardless, I think another issue is that the Ancients are paying for combat abilities that they can't make use of because their melee weapons are all pretty awful. I think they should either be a little cheaper (40 for Haemonculi, 60 for Ancients) or else have access to some more 'solid' weapons - like Power Axes.

One other thing to consider is a way to give Haemonculi a bit of extra protection - something like Clone Field or an invulnerable save.

I agree, but I think they are far too interesting to give them crude weapons like Power Axes. Heck, why shouldn't have access to Ichor Injectors? After all Archons have access to Huskblades as well.
Or a S5 liquifier.


I don't think they can work as pure melee character for low cost. We already have countless melee HQs and I'd rather like to see an HQ that has other ways to aid our dark forces.