D vs Nightmare Doll

The nightmare Doll negates the first unsaved wound with Instant Death allocated to the bearer. Because the multiplier for D happens after the save is failed, by order of operations, this would seem to negate the allocated wound before multiplication for the D rule. Does this make the Nightmare Doll an effective defence against D?

Furthermore, this would seem to work on the '6' roll too. RAW this would give the DE the only real defence against D.

Except...the rules DON'T say that the table roll occurs after armour saves are made.

It says:
"To resolve a Destroyer weapon's attack, roll To it as you would for a standard attack. If the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration."

So the roll on the Destroyer table comes in place of the To Wound roll, which is BEFORE the armour save would be made.
The Deathblow result wounda automatically, and then multiplies it to d6+6 wounds.

So as I read it, the Nightmare Doll would only negate the FIRST of these Destroyer wounds, but not the rest.

Well typically the D table is rolled after the hit. Then the resulting D 'wounds' are allocated the same as regular shooting, then the number of wounds is rolled, assuming the save fails or a '6' is rolled, which would normally just remove a model. If this were not the case then wounds spill from the pool onto other models.

So if you assume that the first of these D wounds is saved and not the rest, it would seem to contradict the way allocation works in general and specifically how D interacts with wound allocation in 7th.

The seqauence of events I see are this:

Roll to hit.
Roll to wound. THis roll succeeds automatically.
The wounds are then exploded to d6+6 wounds.
THEN the wounds are applied to the target, and they can attempt whatever defence they have.

So by the time a model has the ability to defend against the hits, they have d6+6 wounds to deal with.

The roll to wound does not succeed automatically: a 1 fails to wound. The other rolls still follow the normal rules for allocation, meaning the multiplier is applied after the wound is allocated, but before the number of wounds for the type of hit is determined, whether it is a deathblow etc., otherwise wounds would spill over from the pool.

Sulmo wrote:

The roll to wound does not succeed automatically: a 1 fails to wound.

No, the D rules say:

Quote :

The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1

Same wording for Deathblows.

So the D roll of one fails automatically to hurt, not the wound roll. This means that wounds from D weapons are allocated and then the effect is rolled and then the save, if possible, is rolled?

Because I always assumed that the D-roll came before allocation. In either case, though this does not change the fact that original 'wound' had to be allocated and so the wound could be saved by the Doll's effect before the D multiplier. Reading it the other way renders the meaning of 'first wound' in the Doll's description as meaningless in the case of a D weapon, but I would argue it is not meaningless here because D still follows the rules for allocation per se and the original wound had to come from somewhere; hence the 'first wound' being saved.

I have always seen D played as 'D roll in place of to wound' then allocate. If this was not the case, then a model could have a D wound allocated back to it, from the pool, assuming the first wound does not kill it outright. This breaks the way allocation works in bothhth and shooting. The D description specifically states that excess woulds not carry over from the pool: they are wasted.

To illustrate:

A unit of Wraiths scores 3 hits on a Dark Artisan with their WraithCannon. The rolls are made: a 1, a 3 and a 6. Now the wounds are allocated. The haemonculus leading the unit LOS's the 3 and takes the 6. The Doll breaks negating the Deathblow. The 3 is taken by a Talos who has a cover save, assuming the cover fails he then takes between 1 and 3 wounds. The 1 result (in the case of the 3 D 'hits' above) is the same as having not wounded. Is this correct way of reading D?

I'm still confused. The a Nightmare Doll negates unsaved wounds, not hits. So doesn't the Deathblow still have d6+5 Wounds to allocate to the Haemmy after the Doll breaks?

No - You still only take 1 wound from a D weapon - its only when you come to applying the wound you are told to use a D3 or D6+6 instead of 1.

The nightmare doll will work on D IMO regardless of 2-6 results as the unsaved wound is negated by the doll before the wound is applied and then multiplied

No, you only take one hit, which inflicts dx+x. Am I missing an FAQ?

It still looks to me like you take one hit which deals d6+6 wounds, which are then allocated. The Doll stops one of them, but not the rest.

In terms of allocation the 'first' of the d6+6 wounds is meaningless, because I believe it means the original wound as the first wound, not the first of the d6+6 cause none of the d6+6 are the 'first' wound so to speak. The multiplier is applied after the save is failed, after the type of hit is determined and allocated. Otherwise, what I was saying before, is that you end up breaking the general rules for allocation just for the Nightmare Doll to work that way. Whereas, if you treat the original wound as the first, the rules for allocation work just fine.

To be clear.... D weapons work as follows...

Roll to hit as per usual
Roll on the D chart as many times as hits you have (blasts/templates will get more than 1 hit typically)
Break up the results into the 3 pools - 1's (discarded), 2-5 inflicting an automatic wound (D3 wounds) and 6's inflicting an automatic wound (D6+6 wounds)
Allocate the pools in the order chosen by the firer to the closest model using the normal rules.
Take saves (if possible) and apply the results of the wound (ie D3 or D6+6) then move tot he next pool.

So a wraith knight can only ever kill 2 models in any turn with its wraith cannons as it only ever can inflict 2 wounds (the things you allocate). Its just that when you resolve it after making the single save (if possible) from each hit you apply a different effect (D3 or D6+6).

The nightmare doll steps in before it multiplies out as it stops a single unsaved wound - which is what you have.

You never allocate the D3 or D6+6 as these are never created in the wound pool to allocate and save against.

Thank you for this succinct reply. So in summary:

A WraithKnight shoots my Haemo and Grotesques. He rolls 2 hits. The resultant D rolls are a 2 and a 6. This means one of those wounds is a deathblow type, the other is a D3 wound type. The Haemo is closest. The eldar player makes me take the deathblow first and the D3 wound type second. The Haemo takes the deathblow and the doll breaks. He the look out sirs the D3 wound type and rolls a 2, making it, giving the D3 wound type to a Grotesque. The unit is in a ruin giving the Grotesques a 4+ save. If he fails it he dies as the wound counts as being s10. Was this the correct way to resolve the attack?

Correct!

Thanks, this came up in a game recently and I was surprised no-one had asked it already.

Sorry but I really do disagree with that interpretation of how it works.
YOu roll to hit with the D wqeapon, then instead of rolling to wound you roll on a chart to tell what happens. This tells you how many wounds are caused, and then you can start defending against them.
Sure, the possible d3 or d6+6 can only ever affect one model, but that doesn't change the number of wounds you have to defend against.

So if you roll 2 on a D3 you have to make 2 saves for example?

So if I need to look out sir, how many look out sirs do i need to make: D3 or D6+6?

Sulmo wrote:

So if you roll 2 on a D3 you have to make 2 saves for example?

No, you save against hits, not wounds.

Quote :

So if I need to look out sir, how many look out sirs do i need to make: D3 or D6+6?

Now THAT seems to be a grey area in the rules. The Nightmare Doll still only prevents one wound, the rest will kill the haemmy as normal.

I'm pretty sure wounds are allocated and then saves are made, so saves are made against wounds, not hits. The D roll is in place of the to wound roll. The Dolls effect would happen after the allocation in this case. To me the wording of the Doll is similar to the way that D interacts with Look Out Sir. It would seem that a successful Look Out Sir roll bypasses all d3/d6+6 not one.

Sulmo wrote:

I'm pretty sure wounds are allocated and then saves are made, so saves are made against wounds, not hits. The D roll is in place of the to wound roll. The Dolls effect would happen after the allocation in this case. To me the wording of the Doll is similar to the way that D interacts with Look Out Sir. It would seem that a successful Look Out Sir roll bypasses all d3/d6+6 not one.    

You're totally right on the first part. (I blame my toddler-addled brain for the error.)

I don't see why the Doll would negate the whole thing, though. You take multiple wounds, and the doll only negates one. I agree the doll would negate the first, I just don't see any language in the rules to suggest the doll would negate the rest.

You only take and allocate 1 wound - generated by the D table which specifically says it wounds automatically. This is what you save against.

When it comes time to apply the wound it multiplies out. You only ever take 1 wound - it's affect though is more when you apply it

If anyone had a problem with it I'd happily roll for it (4+ it works, 1-3 it doesn't) in a game.