Age of Sigmar

Demantiae wrote:

The majority of players who don't really care is probably quite high and likely in the majority, but... there are probably more players who've been made angry by the changes.

That makes no sense. Which one is the majority then?

Demantiae wrote:

...the fact is that choice means complexity and choice means players are invested in their choices...

Is that a fact?

I've been playing Warhamer for a very long time, and I don't remember anyone ever making customising 'choices' for role-playing reasons. Every time they would just 'choose' the most powerful and/or game-breaking and/or points-effective combo, and they were so 'invested' in them that as soon as they discovered a better one they would drop their 'choice' at the drop of a hat.

Demantiae wrote:

Players have to agree on limiting themselves...

Horrors!

Demantiae wrote:

...there's grounds to argue that their ruleset is sexist.

Ha! Okay, stop right there.

Raging Heroes re-imagines Dark Eldar wyches as eye-candy. Complaints? No, they're extremely popular. Infinity poses most female soldiers as if they were playboy bunnies, including nuns. Does that bother anyone? Nope. Reaper makes thousands of role-playing miniatures, and yet it's almost impossible to find one wearing clothes. Mass protests? Not really. Brother Vinni... I don't even want to think about.

But Games Workshop makes a dumb joke about whose beard is longest, and suddenly everyone's a radical feminist? Let's just say that I have doubts. It's not a tool to be used whenever you feel like having a go at someone.

Barking Agatha wrote:

I've been playing Warhamer for a very long time, and I don't remember anyone ever making customising 'choices' for role-playing reasons. Every time they would just 'choose' the most powerful and/or game-breaking and/or points-effective combo, and they were so 'invested' in them that as soon as they discovered a better one they would drop their 'choice' at the drop of a hat.

Think of how many people on this site have converted Haemonculi to have hex rifles.

Barking Agatha wrote:

Raging Heroes re-imagines Dark Eldar wyches as eye-candy. Complaints? No, they're extremely popular. Infinity poses most female soldiers as if they were playboy bunnies, including nuns. Does that bother anyone? Nope. Reaper makes thousands of role-playing miniatures, and yet it's almost impossible to find one wearing clothes. Mass protests? Not really. Brother Vinni... I don't even want to think about.

If you check a few of the threads on here about Raging Heroes' latest cheesecakefest kickstarter, you'll find posts from me saying how much I dislike them. I actively worry that Raging Heroes are one of the reasons why so few women participate in this hobby. (I also dislike Reaper. I'm not that familiar with the Infinity line, so no opinion there. But I would also like to not think about Brother Vinni.)

I disagree strongly about Raging Heroes or cheesecake models in general being the reason why women don't play much toy soldiers games. I'd say the main reason is that they simply don't want to play toy soldiers games as much as men, that's all. This kind of "women aren't into X so much because Y" where "Y" is an insert of "things that make me uncomfortable" and tangentially, maybe, perhaps might annoy women is ridiculous and has really gone crazy these past years. There are female gamers who love to play sexy babes in video games, there are female gamers who don't. Same as with male gamers.

All of Raging Heroes miniatures are painted by a woman - do you really think she'd paint those miniatures if she'd find them so horribly offensive as you think? The truth is far more simple, most women just don't care about toy soldiers, and the ones that do? Well, they have the same varied preferences on what they find tasteful and what they don't as we, and I'd rather have every single individual figure out for themselves what they like and what they don't, than try to implement some sort of thoughtpolice that will make sure that only things that cannot possibly offend anyone and are universally appealing are made.

Sorry for going offtopic.

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

I disagree strongly about Raging Heroes or cheesecake models in general being the reason why women don't play much toy soldiers games. I'd say the main reason is that they simply don't want to play toy soldiers games as much as men, that's all. This kind of "women aren't into X so much because Y" where "Y" is an insert of "things that make me uncomfortable" and tangentially, maybe, perhaps might annoy women is ridiculous and has really gone crazy these past years. There are female gamers who love to play sexy babes in video games, there are female gamers who don't. Same as with male gamers.

All of Raging Heroes miniatures are painted by a woman - do you really think she'd paint those miniatures if she'd find them so horribly offensive as you think? The truth is far more simple, most women just don't care about toy soldiers, and the ones that do? Well, they have the same varied preferences on what they find tasteful and what they don't as we, and I'd rather have every single individual figure out for themselves what they like and what they don't, than try to implement some sort of thoughtpolice that will make sure that only things that cannot possibly offend anyone and are universally appealing are made.

Sorry for going offtopic.

I have to agree with this, especially this part: "I'd rather have every single individual figure out for themselves what they like and what they don't, than try to implement some sort of thoughtpolice that will make sure that only things that cannot possibly offend anyone and are universally appealing are made." No matter what you do someone will be offended by something, it is an impossible task to please everyone because we are individuals from with different cultures backgrounds and experiences that shape the way we view the world.

I also have to wonder what is so offensive about Raging Heroes anyway, is it that models have exposed breasts? Morathi has exposed breasts as well as 6th edition Daemonettes, did those models make you uncomfortable when placed on the table? Should I feel uncomfortable by bare chested Marauders with their idealized muscular figures and no shirt on?

Okay, I'm getting way off topic and going to far for this forum so I'll stop myself on that note.

Calyptra wrote:

If you check a few of the threads on here about Raging Heroes' latest cheesecakefest kickstarter, you'll find posts from me saying how much I dislike them. I actively worry that Raging Heroes are one of the reasons why so few women participate in this hobby. (I also dislike Reaper. I'm not that familiar with the Infinity line, so no opinion there. But I would also like to not think about Brother Vinni.)

Not really the point, but it does restore faith in the human race, doesn't it?

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

All of Raging Heroes miniatures are painted by a woman - do you really think she'd paint those miniatures if she'd find them so horribly offensive as you think?

CurstAlchemist wrote:

I also have to wonder what is so offensive about Raging Heroes anyway, is it that models have exposed breasts?

I think you both have the wrong idea. It isn't the sexy -- who doesn't like sexy? It's the lack of seriousness compared to their male counterparts. Lelith Hesperax is barely dressed, but she *looks* like serious business, like someone you really don't want to mess with (not that the rules live up to it, but that's another gripe). Dark Elf Witch Elves are in bikinis, but they *look* like psychos coming to rip you up.

The Raging Heroes alternate versions are *beautifully* sculpted... but they are posed as if they were supermodels in a heavy metal video from the 80s, instead of badasses. As for Infinity, look at this:

Spoiler:

It's not the sexy, it's the contrast. The guy on the right looks like a real soldier on the job. Does the girl on the left look like a real soldier on the job?

Some of the newer ranges being worked on aren't so bad or am I still missing something (which is very likely given who I am)?

Spoiler:

No, those are pretty good, sorceress excepted. Just imagine you're a twelve-year old girl choosing a character. 'I wanna be the smart-looking commando girl!' 'I wanna be the scary-badass beastmaster!' 'I wanna be the one who forgot her clothes!'

The point was though, that most of the guys going, 'AoS is sexist, because beards!' never cared about any of this stuff before, and now suddenly they do? Are they going to start applying their newly found feminism everywhere, or is this a one-time thing?

Barking Agatha wrote:

No, those are pretty good, sorceress excepted.

What would be wrong with the sorceress if she was wearing more clothing? You said: "It's not the sexy, it's the contrast. The guy on the right looks like a real soldier on the job. Does the girl on the left look like a real soldier on the job?" If the sorceress had more cloths would her expression and pose still not make her look like someone going about her job?

To be clear, I didn't say I was absolutely certain that Raging Heroes (and other, similar miniatures lines) are driving women from gaming stores. I said it was something that I worry about.

In all likelihood, for some women gamers it doesn't matter at all, and for others, it is a single contributing factor to a larger problem.

Just because something doesn't (or does) bother a single, anecdotal woman, does not mean that it isn't (or is) a problem for all women everywhere. They, like any other arbitrary classification of people, are not a hive mind with a single unified opinion.

But given the number of women involved who play wargames compared to the number of women who play, say, Magic: the Gathering, I think it's pretty clear that we have a serious gender issues problem.

And that problem isn't boobs. I am totally in favor of boobs. I am also in favor of sexy. What I am not in favor of is stupid. Warriors in high heels is stupid. Warriors in pinup poses is stupid. Warriors in chainmail bikinis or boobplate armor is stupid. Topless warrior maidens with boobs so big they'd give themselves a concussion if they tried to run (in their high heels) is STUPID.

There's a lot of absurd, escapist, wish fulfillment fantasy in what we do, and I don't think that's a bad thing. When we conceive or play games with ridiculously over the top badasses, it's in part because we think it might be fun to be a ridiculously over the top badass. There's a lot of ludicrous design elements (giant shoulder plates that would prevent you from turning your head or raising your arms) that we let slide because they don't interfere with us putting ourselves in that models-eye-view. I can write background and stories in my head about my vampire lord or my Haemonculus and put myself in their shoes (not that my Haemonculus wears shoes) without any problems. But the cheesecake designs aren't meant for us to want to be, they're meant for us to want to look at.

And, as with the Bechdel Test, the trouble isn't with any specific model, the problem is one of percentages. (Whether or not a specific movie passes the Bechdel Test is totally irrelevant. The problem is that only about half of movies pass what is an extremely low bar.) On an individual level, I can appreciate the campy, cheesy, high heels, pinup aesthetic. But when that aesthetic is one of the most common, possibly even normalized, representations of women in miniatures gaming, that's a problem.

So, apart from feeling like Raging Heroes is insulting my intelligence, I think the real problem isn't that we have high-heel-wearing elven tit ninjas, it's the ratio of those representations compared to other fantasy representations of women.

Also: "Lust Elves."

I agree, the high heel thing is over done in to many things. I actually laugh when I see them in scenes that would make it near impossible to walk/run in them if it wasn't a movie set. I have never really been a fan of the Chainmaile bikini either, actually I have always like women being portrayed in realistic armor. With that said however, I think the prominence of boob of extreme size has a lot to do with, one they want it to be obvious it is a woman (realistically speaking, if the lore didn't say that all Space Marines are male, how would we know that it wasn't a female under that helmet and armor) and two the scale. Anyway, thanks for elaborating Calyptra.

You do realize that "Lust Elves" are meant to be a stand-in for Slaaneshi daemons, right? Hence all the nakedness and sensual posing?

Calyptra wrote:

To be clear, I didn't say I was absolutely certain that Raging Heroes (and other, similar miniatures lines) are driving women from gaming stores. I said it was something that I worry about.

In all likelihood, for some women gamers it doesn't matter at all, and for others, it is a single contributing factor to a larger problem.

Just because something doesn't (or does) bother a single, anecdotal woman, does not mean that it isn't (or is) a problem for all women everywhere. They, like any other arbitrary classification of people, are not a hive mind with a single unified opinion.

But given the number of women involved who play wargames compared to the number of women who play, say, Magic: the Gathering, I think it's pretty clear that we have a serious gender issues problem.

This is ridiculous. It is a statistical error to compare wargames with TCGs. I have a feeling that Magic alone is much more popular than 40k, hell, perhaps all miniatures games taken together simply due to its low barrier of entry of buying a simple pack of cards. Yes, no wonder more women play card games - more people play card games in general. It's the same as comparing the amount of women playing Hearthstone and Starcraft - it's not just the fact that it's a video game that makes up the statistic, it's also the type and complexity of the game. The comparison makes for some nice trivia but has little actual value.

Also, your line of thinking is absurd. I live in Riga, a city built in Jugendstil. When I walk through the historical centre, I see naked ladies everywhere. Busts, sculptures, ornaments, depictions of beautiful women of that time's standard of beauty. Does this make Riga unwelcome to women? Does this make Riga sexist? These decorations, after all, were made with the explicit intent of being looked at. And it's not just Riga! Imagine this, Lviv in Ukraine has tons of Jugendstil buildings too! More naked women, it's in their museums, in their opera, everywhere!

Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds?

Here's the thing. What you feel offends you right now is cultural. Raging Heroes is a french company, and I have a good feeling the french have completely different idea of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate from an american, and not just in art. You may feel offended at what they make, it's none of my business. But your offense is based on very subjective criteria, or "stupid" (a flawed criteria at that), as you called it. It is fully within your rights to feel offended at something. But it is also in your power to not be offended. Being offended is a choice, and its ease or difficulty is based on your background. Personally, I find it very simple when I see miniatures I don't like - I just stop looking at them. It's not in my taste, it's in someone else's, no big deal about that.

You can choose to be offended at cheesecake models. You could also choose to play (and talk about) Age of Sigmar.

Calyptra wrote:

I actively worry that Raging Heroes are one of the reasons why so few women participate in this hobby.

That's nonsense for a few reasons. I'm sure there are some SJW's and radfems who will hate of RH, but they hate on basically everything. As a girl wargamer, I love Raging Heroes because they are all about bad ass female models. A bunch of my geeky girlfriends are excited about Raging Heroes and are considering actually getting into 40k because they finally have some attractive options. They're pretty cheesecake, but that kind of sexy is empowering for many women, including myself. Being a sexy bad ass is empowering. Being a sexy trophy or objective marker is not. See the difference? Sexy isn't always a bad thing. For one, it means they are actually feminine looking, unlike many miniature companies whose female models are all really ugly and/or are just objectified trophies. Which brings me to the second reason why your concerns are nonsense. Consider that most miniature companies have historically had fewer female models than male ones, and the ones who exist are generally pretty fugly looking butterfaces. Other then Dark Eldar, GW has basically one choice for armies with bad ass girls, and while the artwork for the Sisters of Battle are awesome, the minis are all pretty ugly. Thirdly, Raging Heroes is a very new company and the lack of girl wargamers is a longstanding phenomenon. It's just not possible for RH to be the reason for the lack of girls in the hobby.

There are few girls in the hobby because most armies are entirely or mostly male models, most miniature sculptors suck at sculpting women, and because many male gamers have questionable hygiene. Raging Heroes is fixing two of those things. XD

CurstAlchemist wrote:

What would be wrong with the sorceress if she was wearing more clothing? You said: "It's not the sexy, it's the contrast. The guy on the right looks like a real soldier on the job. Does the girl on the left look like a real soldier on the job?" If the sorceress had more cloths would her expression and pose still not make her look like someone going about her job?

Not unless her job is 'temptress' or 'femme fatale'

She is very pretty, but she is a pin-up. If that's what she's supposed to be, then okay: paint her up nicely and put her on the shelf next to Naughty Nurse and Milly the Milkmaid. But if she's supposed to be a part of the same army where badass knights ride velociraptors, then no, because why do the guys get to be badass while the girls do sexy poses?

Very nice sculpt, though. She looks like a Conan girl, i.e., like a Bond girl, but for Conan. A Frazetta poster girl on a low-carb diet and jazzercising. You know what she looks like? The cover for a pulp fantasy novel from the 1930s, inside of which she is the evil queen that seduces the barbarian hero and tries to corrupt him, but fails of course, so that he pushes her away with a horrified grunt, which causes her to be dragged to the abyss by her daemonic master, making the entire mountain shake as it is torn apart, giving him just enough time to rescue the voluptuous but innocent tavern wench about to be sacrificed and ride away somewhere that he can have it off with her as well.

Yep, that's definitely what she looks like.

And that's all fine, if you're into that sort of thing. Just keep it where it belongs!

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

This is ridiculous. It is a statistical error to compare wargames with TCGs. I have a feeling that Magic alone is much more popular than 40k, hell, perhaps all miniatures games taken together simply due to its low barrier of entry of buying a simple pack of cards. Yes, no wonder more women play card games - more people play card games in general. It's the same as comparing the amount of women playing Hearthstone and Starcraft - it's not just the fact that it's a video game that makes up the statistic, it's also the type and complexity of the game. The comparison makes for some nice trivia but has little actual value.

I was referring to percentage, not quantity.

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

Also, your line of thinking is absurd. I live in Riga, a city built in Jugendstil. When I walk through the historical centre, I see naked ladies everywhere. Busts, sculptures, ornaments, depictions of beautiful women of that time's standard of beauty. Does this make Riga unwelcome to women? Does this make Riga sexist? These decorations, after all, were made with the explicit intent of being looked at. And it's not just Riga! Imagine this, Lviv in Ukraine has tons of Jugendstil buildings too! More naked women, it's in their museums, in their opera, everywhere!

Two of my ex-girlfriends are strippers (and I have nothing but respect for them and what they do).

I go to Burning Man.

Also:

Calyptra wrote:

I am totally in favor of boobs. I am also in favor of sexy.

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

Here's the thing. What you feel offends you right now is cultural. Raging Heroes is a french company, and I have a good feeling the french have completely different idea of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate from an american, and not just in art. You may feel offended at what they make, it's none of my business. But your offense is based on very subjective criteria, or "stupid" (a flawed criteria at that), as you called it. It is fully within your rights to feel offended at something.

I never said I was offended. I said that I was worried; I'm also annoyed, but I'm certainly not offended. I went to art school; this is not a thing I am likely to be offended by.

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

But it is also in your power to not be offended. Being offended is a choice, and its ease or difficulty is based on your background. Personally, I find it very simple when I see miniatures I don't like - I just stop looking at them. It's not in my taste, it's in someone else's, no big deal about that.

That's interesting. So when people are confronted by hate groups declaring loudly that are sub-human and deserve to be killed, they can just choose to not be offended? Or if I were to (and I never would) say very unkind things about your mother or other close family members, you could just choose to not be offended?

Honestly, you seem a bit offended at my criticism of these models, given your response's enthusiasm.

Siticus the Ancient wrote:

You could also choose to play (and talk about) Age of Sigmar.

I don't know about playing it, but I'd love to go back to talking about it, if a few people are done yelling at me for not liking Raging Heroes.

Vael Galizur wrote:

As a girl wargamer, I love Raging Heroes because they are all about bad ass female models. A bunch of my geeky girlfriends are excited about Raging Heroes and are considering actually getting into 40k because they finally have some attractive options.

I genuinely think that's awesome. And I'm glad that you like the models, even if I don't.

Vael Galizur wrote:

They're pretty cheesecake, but that kind of sexy is empowering for many women, including myself. Being a sexy bad ass is empowering. Being a sexy trophy or objective marker is not. See the difference? Sexy isn't always a bad thing.

Calyptra wrote:

I am also in favor of sexy. What I am not in favor of is stupid.

Vael Galizur wrote:

For one, it means they are actually feminine looking, unlike many miniature companies whose female models are all really ugly and/or are just objectified trophies. Which brings me to the second reason why your concerns are nonsense. Consider that most miniature companies have historically had fewer female models than male ones, and the ones who exist are generally pretty fugly looking butterfaces.

Obviously, when assembling an army of warriors to crush your enemies beneath your booted heel, the prettiness of their faces is a prime concern. But kidding aside, I take your point. The Witch Elves before the last ones were terrible.

Vael Galizur wrote:

Other then Dark Eldar, GW has basically one choice for armies with bad ass girls, and while the artwork for the Sisters of Battle are awesome, the minis are all pretty ugly. Thirdly, Raging Heroes is a very new company and the lack of girl wargamers is a longstanding phenomenon. It's just not possible for RH to be the reason for the lack of girls in the hobby.

Calyptra wrote:

To be clear, I didn't say I was absolutely certain that Raging Heroes (and other, similar miniatures lines) are driving women from gaming stores. I said it was something that I worry about.

In all likelihood, for some women gamers it doesn't matter at all, and for others, it is a single contributing factor to a larger problem.

Vael Galizur wrote:

There are few girls in the hobby because most armies are entirely or mostly male models, most miniature sculptors suck at sculpting women, and because many male gamers have questionable hygiene. Raging Heroes is fixing two of those things. XD

I remain unconvinced, but I really, really hope that you're right.

And because I really didn't mean to get this thread so off topic, for anybody who bothered to read to the bottom of this thing, I have something to say about Age of Sigmar and beards!

I think the beard rules are annoying, but not sexist, because fake beards are a thing. A while back I got booked to perform at a beard competition, which was a lot of fun. There was a fake beard category, and the ladybeards were definitely my favorite. (They were way better than the fake beards we wore for our show.)

Trust me that girls like Raging Heroes, or at least 100% of the ones I've talked to about it. I know plenty of girls who love miniatures and strategy games but who don't get into 40k simply because they don't want an army of burly dudes, they don't really like the Sisters of Battle aesthetic (or at least not enough to buy in), and because I already play Dark Eldar. LOL

I mean think about it. GW is the biggest wargaming company and they have over seven different all male armies, 3 somewhat coed armies, and one female army who has really old models and a really limited aesthetic. Of all the armies, I'd say they have amongst the least amount of variety in their units. They all look near identical, right down to the haircut. Girls don't play 40k as much because GW doesn't really market to us at all and never has, not because a tiny French startup company have just now started to make some sexy bad ass girl miniatures.

And as for the poses, they're really not that ridiculous, certainly no more so that the posing for every other female mini by every other company. They're dynamic and cool poses, in my opinion.

Regarding high heels, you'd be surprised what we can do in them, and elves are magically agile and could fight a battle standing on their tip toes like ballerinas if they wanted. LOL Seriously though, high heels were originally for men, and specifically, those who were riding into battle. Then they became a status symbol, then women started wearing them as well, and then they fell out of fashion for men, but both genders decided that they make women's legs look nice, so we still wear them sometimes. lol Wearing them to war (especially a pretend war with space elves) isn't that absurd. It's near universal to depict female figures wearing heels in miniatures or otherwise, so I really don't understand why Raging Heroes is getting such flak for them. If you ask me, they're the ones making the coolest frak heels ever. Who doesn't want super bad ass shape shifting razor sharp bladed heels of death? I know I do!

But back to AoS, I agree that the beard rule isn't sexist, it's just a goofy joke that doesn't actually demean or harm women in any way. None of those rules actually matter; several of them are completely impossible, like if you talk to the miniature, you get a reroll, and if he talks back, you get another reroll. The rerolls are meaningless and they really don't provide that much of an advantage. I really hate it when people get mad about jokes that aren't demeaning or insulting to anyone, but merely contain some element of specificity about a group or gender. Every joke about one of the sexes isn't automatically sexIST.

I haven't actually heard anyone seriously complaining that the rule is sexist, I've just seen people talking about it. But if there are people who are seriously upset, then they are frak ridiculous and need to have some sense of propriety about social issues. Some jokes are misogynistic and shouldn't be excused just because "they're only jokes". A joke about the player having a long beard while commanding long bearded dwarves is not misogynistic. Even from just a lore perspective, don't female dwarves have beards too, so the rules should obviously not be intended to exclude girls. Sure, most human girls don't have beards, but you think a rule system that tells you to prance around like you're riding a pony should draw the line at fake beards? Come on. lol

Now, realistically, if a girl were playing with an army of long beards while wearing a fake beard (if a girl actually has an army of long beards, then she is probably also a Hobbit cosplayer with a whole array of fake beards. Yes, they exist and there are tons of them XD), and she's playing against a male opponent who had a shorter beard than her fake one, and he refused to allow her to get the reroll, then THAT would be sexist.

Vael Galizur wrote:

Trust me that girls like Raging Heroes.

Okay, since you're apparently the final authority on the matter. Even if that were true though, it doesn't change whether they're sexist or not, and I have to wonder whether you and your friends are mums and exactly what message you want to teach your daughters. Some of the Raging Heroes miniatures are great, but would you really give that Sorceress to your fourteen-year old and say, 'Look, honey, this is you!'?

Vael Galizur wrote:

I mean think about it. GW is the biggest wargaming company and they have over seven different all male armies, 3 somewhat coed armies, and one female army who has really old models and a really limited aesthetic.

Games Workshop has been pretty good at portraying female miniatures compared to most other companies, although largely by avoiding the issue. Off the top of my head, I can only remember two missteps. One is the Last Chancers:

Spoiler:

They're a ragtag bunch of hard-bitten misfits and combat specialists on a suicide mission, and they are each the best at what they do, so of course the single woman on the team is wearing a bikini top and a mini-skirt, because... I guess she was sent to the Penal Legions for her crimes against fashion?

However, it's largely overshadowed by the ridiculous portrayal of the native american member of the team. GW was lucky that the Internet wasn't really around yet.

And the other misstep from GW that I remember is this abomination:

Spoiler:

On the other hand, look at Infinity's nuns. Keep in mind, these are actually supposed to be Catholic nuns in the near future:

Spoiler:

I gotta say, I've never been mooned by a nun. This is not, in my experience, normal nun behaviour, and I went to catholic school. Compare them to Games Workshop's:

Spoiler:

Now those are nuns, just as I remember!

Vael Galizur wrote:

And as for the poses, they're really not that ridiculous, certainly no more so that the posing for every other female mini by every other company.

That's kind of the point.

Vael Galizur wrote:

Regarding high heels, you'd be surprised what we can do in them

You'll be surprised how much you don't eff up your ankles if you put on a sensible pair of trainers instead, and they make all kinds of cool ones now for everyday use.

Vael Galizur wrote:

I really don't understand why Raging Heroes is getting such flak for them.

They aren't! Raging Heroes is only one example of a trend that generally affects all of fantasy and gaming. In fact, they're near the bottom of the list. Corvus Belli is much, much worse. Games Workshop is better, but they've had their moments.

Vael Galizur wrote:

I haven't actually heard anyone seriously complaining that the rule is sexist.

I haven't taken anyone seriously who does. The point is that quite a few guys are so overwhelmed by unreasoning nerdrage that they will bring up anything bad they can think of about Age of Sigmar, no matter how ridiculous, including that it's 'sexist', even though they are exactly the type of person who has never cared before about what is 'sexist' and what isn't, which makes their sudden interest in it insincere. Have I been too subtle about this?

Barking Agatha wrote:

Okay, since you're apparently the final authority on the matter. Even if that were true though, it doesn't change whether they're sexist or not, and I have to wonder whether you and your friends are mums and exactly what message you want to teach your daughters. Some of the Raging Heroes miniatures are great, but would you really give that Sorceress to your fourteen-year old and say, 'Look, honey, this is you!'?

As a girl who likes them and who knows other girls who like them as well, I'd say that makes me "an" authority, but I never claimed to speak for all women. I was talking to Calyptra about my experience, not trying to speak for you. Sorry if that wasn't clear, I think I neglected to hit quote on that last post.

But explain to me how they are sexist. Sexism is the belief that women are inferior to men. How do these figures discriminate against women? Sexy =/= Sexist

I don't have any kids, and neither do any of my friends, but I never said I thought they were appropriate for children. Adult art is also not automatically sexist. Personally, I don't really like the way our western culture makes women's bodies out to be something shameful, but I realize that's up to each parent to decide what's appropriate for their kids. That said, I am not a big fan of the miniatures with fully exposed breasts. Not because I think it's inappropriate, I think it's dumb that people view women's nipples as somehow naughtier than men's, but just because I know I wouldn't want to run into battle with my tits flopping all over the place. Superhuman agility would keep me from twisting my ankle in crazy heels, but unless you keep them tucked away, boobs will do whatever the hell they want. XD

Barking Agatha wrote:

They aren't! Raging Heroes is only one example of a trend that generally affects all of fantasy and gaming. In fact, they're near the bottom of the list. Corvus Belli is much, much worse. Games Workshop is better, but they've had their moments.

All of my comments were in response to a post that was just complaining about Raging Heroes and in reference to other gripes about them I'd seen on the forum, none of which mentioned any other companies.

Also, Calyptra, I wasn't yelling at you for not liking RH, I was just trying to assuage your fears that they were somehow driving away girls from the hobby, and inform you that the opposite is happening, at least where I live. ^^

Just to clarify on a previous post, when I said high heals I meant spiked heels. Spiked heals focus the energy to a point and will dig into softer ground that a wider heel won't, making them very impractical to wear when trekking through some environments. The high heels similar to the way men used to wear are not as tall and wider making them practical and not the ones I was attempting to make reference.

Just for the hell of it I will also mention that I have worn plenty of heeled boots as I used to ride horses in my youth, and climbed rocks and hills in them. They are slippery but I never found them to much of a hinderance while playing in the country side.

Vael Galizur wrote:

But explain to me how they are sexist.

1. We fantasise about being heroic
2. According to Raging Heroes, a female hero looks like this:

Spoiler:

3. You may disagree, but my idea of a female hero fantasy is something more like this:

Spoiler:

One is strong, skilled, brave, steadfast, and will take no crap from anyone. The other one doesn't really display any of these characteristics, she's just pretty and flaunting it. Not that there's anything wrong with 'if you sexy then flaunt it'. But is it heroic?

The equivalent male miniature goes for heroic. The female miniature goes for pretty. Hence, sexism.

Vael Galizur wrote:

I don't have any kids, and neither do any of my friends, but I never said I thought they were appropriate for children. Adult art is also not automatically sexist.

Are they supposed to be adult art? As I said above, if Shyverya the Sorceress is supposed to be in the same class as Barbie the Barmaid and Milly the Milkmaid, then fine. Those girls aren't supposed to be heroic anyway. It would be nice to have miniatures of Fabio the Fireman and Bruno the Bad Boy to balance things out, but that's beside the point.

However, Shyverya seems to want to be in my Dark Elf army, who are supposed to be hard-edged badasses, and that just won't do. Dark Elves are supposed to be heroic (in a villainous way). If Raging Heroes are going to have a section of 'Naughty Girl Miniatures', let them separate them from their Sci-Fi and Fantasy heroes.

Vael Galizur wrote:

All of my comments were in response to a post...

I know. Piling up on a guy for being a decent fella, for shame! If I'm absolutely honest, I like Raging Heroes miniatures too, even the sexy ones. But we are weird. The sexism that runs through fantasy gaming absolutely IS a major reason (though perhaps not the only one) that more girls aren't into it.

Delete, I'm just contributing to keeping this thread off topic so I removed my post.

Honestly, I think this conversation is *way* more interesting than Age of Sigmar.

Vael Galizur wrote:

Trust me that girls like Raging Heroes, or at least 100% of the ones I've talked to about it. I know plenty of girls who love miniatures and strategy games but who don't get into 40k simply because they don't want an army of burly dudes, they don't really like the Sisters of Battle aesthetic (or at least not enough to buy in), and because I already play Dark Eldar. LOL

Obviously you're not the voice of girl wargamers everywhere, any more than I am the voice of boy wargamers. I know (primarily via internet) that some women want their armies to also be women, because women. The women I've actually played wargames with haven't felt this way; it's a small sample size, and many of them played Warmachine, but if anything, Orks seem to have been most popular among them.

Vael Galizur wrote:

Regarding high heels, you'd be surprised what we can do in them, and elves are magically agile and could fight a battle standing on their tip toes like ballerinas if they wanted.

I don't think I would be, actually. I have a pair myself for when I need to do drag. I can do a lot of things in my stilettos, but anything approaching gladiatorial combat isn't on that list. Likewise for my female-bodied partner.

And that's the trouble here. Heels make you look good at the expense of functionality. I have no problems with the idea of the sexy death machine, but if that sexy death machine is wearing heels, then there's clearly way more sexy than death machine.

The women I perform with are able to look sexy without having to compromise what they're physically capable of. These are not exclusive states.

Because I'm a male-bodied performer, there's a lot of crap that I don't have to deal with that my female-bodied peers do. My partner once commented that the people at a gig cared more about what she was wearing than what she was doing. I'm *still* pissed about that, because she's one of the most skilled, talented people I've ever had the privilege of knowing, let alone working with, and that experience is ongoing, not just for her, but for every other woman in the Boston Circus Guild as well. (I know, because we talk.) I can do a thing, and people will (hopefully) be impressed by it. She can do the same thing, and some of those same people won't care, because they're much more concerned about her butt. (And her butt is great, but you can appreciate both.)

It's the same thing with these models. If the warriors they represent showed up in high heels, then how they look is more important than what they're there to do, to the extent that they are compromising what they are able to do. Fighting is less important than how shapely their legs are.

Again, I think there's a place for absurd, sexy, pin-up pose models. I just wish that they were more the exception and less the rule.

Obligatory Age of Sigmar comment: though I think the beard rule is dumb but harmless, I understand there are other rules calling for people to do things like dance. I haven't seen the actual rules, so I don't know anything about this for certain, but I imagine being pretty unamused if I were physically disabled and my miniatures game told me to dance.

Actually, I'd be pretty unamused by it as an able-bodied person, too. I am not your monkey, Age of Sigmar!

An evil Sorceress is not supposed to be a hero, even if the name of the company is Raging Heroes, but even so, why couldn't a hero look like either of those two. Being a hero is about what you do, not what you look like. Either way, how "heroic" a character looks has nothing to do with it being sexist or not.

Barking Agatha wrote:

Piling up on a guy for being a decent fella, for shame!

>_< As I said, I wasn't yelling at him, I was trying to reassure him that his fears were needless. lol

Barking Agatha wrote:

If I'm absolutely honest, I like Raging Heroes miniatures too, even the sexy ones.

Then why in hells blazes are you giving me such a hard time for defending them!? LOLOLOL Jeeesus. Talk about arguing for the sake of arguing. XD

Barking Agatha wrote:

The sexism that runs through fantasy gaming absolutely IS a major reason (though perhaps not the only one) that more girls aren't into it.

Totally agree! Though I still submit that Raging Heroes is not a part of that problem.

Calyptra wrote:

I know (primarily via internet) that some women want their armies to also be women, because women. The women I've actually played wargames with haven't felt this way; it's a small sample size, and many of them played Warmachine, but if anything, Orks seem to have been most popular among them.

The problem with that assessment is that you're talking about the girls you've played wargames with. We're talking about girls who don't play and why not. Of course most of the girls who play don't care about having a female army, because they don't have much choice. When you want to understand why there aren't more girls playing, you need to consider what they're interested in that the game doesn't offer. And what 40k is missing is a variety of well sculpted female miniatures, a market that Raging Heroes is filling with wild success.

Vael Galizur wrote:

why couldn't a hero look like either of those two. Being a hero is about what you do, not what you look like.

Unfortunately, miniature models are unlikely to do anything, what with being inanimate bits of metal or plastic, so we can only judge what their creators meant them to be based on what they look like. In her case, would you even know that she was supposed to be a sorceress if it didn't say so on the package? And this is supposed to be one of the 'toughest' girls in the galaxy? 'cause I'm pretty sure I could take her.

Vael Galizur wrote:

>_< As I said, I wasn't yelling at him, I was trying to reassure him that his fears were needless.

Then all is right with the world, and peace may be restored.

Barking Agatha wrote:

In her case, would you even know that she was supposed to be a sorceress if it didn't say so on the package?

Every Dark Elf sorceress mini I've ever seen has the following features: pointy ears, magic staff, fancy hat, and little to no clothing. She has all of those things. She looks pretty much just like GW's Dark Elf sorceresses, only better sculpted with more details and less butterface. lol