The "Feel" of Dark Eldar

Jimsolo wrote:

Lol, alternatively, in the whirlwind race to give everyone a hardcover codex, as well as remove any IP not protected by the presence of an extant model kit, the DE got a 'placeholder' codex which will eventually be replaced by something approaching legitimate.  Not top tier, mind you, because that would be Cthulu-walks-among-us insane.

GW got a placeholder CEO, so that makes some sense.

Everything I wrote is true, more or less. Mark Wells really did step down, for whatever reason, and Tom Kirby came out of semi-retirement to take over until they could find someone else.

Kirby really is kind of... odd. Not your typical corporate type, or your typical anything, really. There was that interview with him in the Telegraph (yeah, I know), where he was talking about IP licensing and he mentioned 'Warhammer Quest for the IOS (Apple Stuff)'.

Well yeah, IOS is Apple stuff, but you probably knew that. Children in isolated tribes in the Amazon rainforest know that. But Kirby felt that he had to explain it to the interviewer in case she didn't know, and he isn't too sure himself beyond 'Apple stuff'. Where in the UK does he live, Brigadoon?

Then he says that he likes to manage GW the way Thomas Edison managed his workshop, because Edison is such an excellent model. a) No, he was not, he was a patent-jumping bastard who stole most of his ideas from Nikola Tesla and others and actually employed thugs to break into their workshops and beat them up, plus he never really understood or cared about the science involved, and b) have you noticed it's not actually 1893?

And then there's that letter to his stockholders in which he says that GW must recruit its employees not for their skills, but for their attitude, and then rants about how that is what is wrong with the world today, everyone focusing on these 'skills' and 'what you can actually do' instead of how cheerful and positive and eager you are. In other words, he would rather be treated by Patch Adams than Dr. House.

And the stockholders go along with it. Why? There are three investment funds who are GW's major stockholders. One is the UK representative of Fu Manchu, another one is the Agatha Christie Old Biddy Fund, and the other one is Dracula.

There are dozens of others. So, yeah, an unusual individual, Tom Kirby.

There's no denying that Kirby is a strange fish. This is a genuine extract from his Chairman's report last year:

Quote :

Games Workshop has had a really good year. If your measure of 'good' is the current financial year's numbers, you may not agree.

He also somehow managed to spend £4m on a website.

I'm amazed the shareholders didn't bin him years ago!

FuelDrop wrote:

Maybe... maybe they could even ignore cover? (Shock, gasp, horror, cries of "You've gone too far, you madman!" ect.)

Ignore cover!?!! On dark elder!?!! He's a witch!!! BURN HIM!!!!!!!

@Barking Agatha. Your probably spot on!

HOW DO YOU WANT TO FEEL WHEN YOU’RE PLAYING DARK ELDAR

Personally I want to feel flexible, I want to feel as if I can strike at any time in any place I want to, I want to feel the anticipation of setting up a trap (the worry, the doubt, is this going to work? is this going to blow up in my face?), then the excitement of springing the trap and finally the contentment of realising it all went to plan (rather than the deflated feeling of it all going horribly wrong).

I want to feel as if I have the advantage of time and space (movement = space + time) but know if I miss calculate it’s all going to go horribly wrong. I don’t want to be forgiven for making mistakes I want to be punished for every mistake.

HOW DO YOU WANT YOUR OPPONENT TO FEEL WHEN FACING THE DARK ELDAR

This is the easy one, I want them to not be sure what I’m planning, I want them to second or even third guess themselves, I want them to have a continuous underlying senses of dread, of not knowing where I’m going to strike, which part of their lines I’m going to cripple in one turn. I want them to always think: Is this a trap?

Do we accomplish this?

Some times, it was easier with the 5th ed codex, I really miss the old night shields, I feel as if to play DE well you have to go MSU but at anything over 1250pts the table becomes too thick with models (or at least it should do if there’s enough LOS blocking scenery and loads of terrain. Personally I cannot see DE attacking a fortified position in the open, it’s just not their way)

What would help?

The ability to enter ongoing reserves either via webway portal (which does make sense) or moving off the board edges (in a transport) and then out flanking or something next turn. The ability to restrict the opponents movement, such as temporary immobilising transports or just vehicles in general (maybe some sort of upgraded haywire effect). Which again makes sense as all we are interested in is capturing slaves, so you would imagine we have ways to disable transports at least

Hope this helps

Count Adhemar wrote:

There's no denying that Kirby is a strange fish. This is a genuine extract from his Chairman's report last year:

Quote :

Games Workshop has had a really good year. If your measure of 'good' is the current financial year's numbers, you may not agree.

He also somehow managed to spend £4m on a website.  

I'm amazed the shareholders didn't bin him years ago!

Isn't he still the largest shareholder himself?

In the codex, every raid is carefully planned before execution. Often, arcons use special unusual phenomenon to strike, like solar flare, or a crashing ship.

We could have a list of "dirty tricks" we have access and choose 1 secretly, after deployment. When we want to use it, we reveal it.

It may be something like

"the ammo of the anti-air defence systems were trapped. DCA don't fire for a turn.Your flyers arrive that turn"
"sismic activity generated, every troops fall to ground for a turn"

der-al wrote:

HOW DO YOU WANT TO FEEL WHEN YOU’RE PLAYING DARK ELDAR

Personally I want to feel flexible, I want to feel as if I can strike at any time in any place I want to, I want to feel the anticipation of setting up a trap (the worry, the doubt, is this going to work? is this going to blow up in my face?), then the excitement of springing the trap and finally the contentment of realising it all went to plan (rather than the deflated feeling of it all going horribly wrong).

I don't know if you'll be happy to hear this, but to most game developers, that sense of risk equates to low percentages. Like, 5+ or so. Hopefully we'll be able to come up with something less about dice percentages and more about, as you put it, positioning.

For example, a similar way of creating risk is to give a very key model in your strategy a very critical role. The risk comes when that role can, for example, only be executed in a limited range. Let's say it's a weapon with a 6" range. The model, therefore, has very little in the line of saves. Either you make that roll (the likelihood of succeeding that roll isn't even actually relevant. It could be a 2+) or that model's death (and the plan's failure) is guaranteed.

der-al wrote:

I want to feel as if I have the advantage of time and space (movement = space + time) but know if I miss calculate it’s all going to go horribly wrong. I don’t want to be forgiven for making mistakes I want to be punished for every mistake.

Not to worry. Our terrible saves are more than enough punishment for miscalculations.

der-al wrote:

This is the easy one, I want them to not be sure what I’m planning, I want them to second or even third guess themselves, I want them to have a continuous underlying senses of dread, of not knowing where I’m going to strike, which part of their lines I’m going to cripple in one turn. I want them to always think: Is this a trap?

Unfortunately a relatively passing familiarity with an enemy's codex wrecks any big surprises. Not sure how to accomplish this one. I'll think about it.

der-al wrote:

I really miss the old night shields

You know why they were so great? They were an unusual way to increase our effective range without something as dull as more movement speed.

der-al wrote:

The ability to enter ongoing reserves either via webway portal (which does make sense) or moving off the board edges (in a transport) and then out flanking or something next turn. The ability to restrict the opponents movement, such as temporary immobilising transports or just vehicles in general (maybe some sort of upgraded haywire effect). Which again makes sense as all we are interested in is capturing slaves, so you would imagine we have ways to disable transports at least.

Those are all really good suggestions. I like 'em.

dumpeal wrote:

In the codex, every raid is carefully planned before execution. Often, arcons use special unusual phenomenon to strike, like solar flare, or a crashing ship.

We could have a list of "dirty tricks" we have access and choose 1 secretly, after deployment. When we want to use it, we reveal it.

It may be something like

"the ammo of the anti-air defence systems were trapped. DCA don't fire for a turn.Your flyers arrive that turn"
"sismic activity generated, every troops fall to ground for a turn"

Oh man, I love it. It's perfect for Vect. It's got that "CREEEEEEEEEEEED" feeling but without resulting in deep-striking land raiders or some other nonsense. Let me know if you think of any more!

"Solar flare. For 2 turns, weapons' assisted aiming systems are disabled. No ignore-cover shot"

"rerouted asteroid. At the beginning of the game, you put 6 tokens with a number on the battlefield. Write secretly a number. At tour 4, the asteroid hit, with 3D6 deviation. Small blast distance is D strenght, large blast is S8 PA2, and apocalyptic blast is S4 PA4 (to allow marine save, not being too greedy).

"Here, a gift! WWP a void mine where you want. You still have to pay for the WWP." (This one is strong, but, fluffylly talking, nothing disallow someone to webway portal a bomb).

"Decoy. Place 3 illusions copy of a transport (with his occupants). When they receive a unsaved wound, it vanish"

"Eclipse. At turn 3, the game turn automaticly nightfight."

"Raider goes BOOM! Trap 1 of your raider with a void mine. When the raider is destroyed, the mine explode"

I like the concept of the raider with the explosive, it is fits with the boat theme of the faction and is basically a fire-ship.

Quote :

@der-al wrote:
I really miss the old night shields

You know why they were so great? They were an unusual way to increase our effective range without something as dull as more movement speed.

I liked them because they made the table larger for our opponents, essentially giving  us more room in which to maneuver

CurstAlchemist wrote:

I like the concept of the raider with the explosive, it is fits with the boat theme of the faction and is basically a fire-ship.

It's a fire-ship, but for it to work, you need to have troops in it, or else, it become obvious it will explode, and they won't try to destroy it. Meaning you have to sacrifice some of your troops.

That's mean, too, that our ennemy won't assault our raiders with costy units, for the fear of losing them in an explosion.

I like the idea of 'stratagems', as I think they used to be called in Apoc/Cities of death etc, and as suggested above. Making them purchasable (for points, not $$!) would be neat, too. It would be nice if there were more ways to represent an Archon's cunning.

Webway portal void mine makes me chuckle evilly to myself, but some buffs and debuffs would be very cool.

As to what I think Dark Eldar should be: they should be fast. They should be able to reposition effortlessly, enabling cunning Archons to completely shift the axis of their attacks, and gang up on enemy in one place while leaving the others clutching at smoke. Our opponents should never be certain from which direction they will take the next hit.

The worst thing about the change from 5ed to 7ed is that we have become comparatively slower. Eldar have Battle Focus, Marine bikes are a massive thing instead of a niche thing, fliers are everywhere, etc. Reavers do damage in the assault phase which means bladevanes effective range halved at best.

How to turn it around? In my view a range of measures.

1 - loosen embark/disembark rules for DE so they are always getting on and off.
-- 12" move, still embark/disembark
-- embark / disembark at any point in a vehicle's movement
-- enable embarkation as part of run or consolidate move
-- embark and disembark (or vice versa) in the same turn (say within 3" instead of 6")
-- flat out after embarking onto a vehicle whether it has yet moved or not

2 - villainous version of Battle Focus, run then charge or something like that, or can run onto a transport after firing or heck just run d6 + 3

3 - weapons that limit opposition movement, say tanglefoot missiles that cause pinning and dangerous terrain but only hit at S4 or so

4 - flyer transport option (even if it is a webway bomb option for a voidraven)

5 - old school webway portals, except with moving into one deployed portal then out the other!

OK I'd better go take my meds now but there's some ideas for you

Probably a little late to the party and I didn't read every post so if someone already posted this just +1 me.  Basically though.... I want to feel like a cheater.

Let's face it, we're weak - probably the weakest army in the 40k universe.  I don't mind that; I'm just asking for the ability to level the playing field when it's most crucial.

Fluff wise We cheated our way out of our own damnation and we continue to do so 10,000 years later.  We cheat death on a near constant basis through reanimation, and we cheat each other on the price we pay for each new (back)stab at life.

The simplest way to achieve this on the tabletop would be by applying effects to areas of the battlefield with new pain engines or hero/vehicle equipment.  This combined with our notable mobility, and deep striking without error would allow us to change conditions on the battlefield to our favor quickly.

Imagine a bubble effect that made all ranged attacks passing within 12" suffer a -2 strength penalty (call it an entropy field).  Now WWP one of these into the middle of a firefight, and suddenly those mediocre poison, haywire, and lance weapons you brought are more effective than your enemies' bolters and lascannons.

Give similar options for melee attacks, movement, cover saves (or nightfighting), and leadership.  Make them expensive enough that the player has to choose which ones to bring, and where, and when.  

Overcoming our inherent weakness with foresight and preparedness (or dirty tricks), I guess that's really what I'm talking about.

As for my opponent?  I want him to feel like that ghost who's just about to eat pac man, then suddenly has the tables turned on him and is running for his life.

To be perfectly honest, we could "fix" our codex and bring us up to craftworld/admech with 4-5 simple changes, but it wouldn't bring the character of the dark kin to the front in the ways we're discussing here.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

I like the idea of 'stratagems', as I think they used to be called in Apoc/Cities of death etc, and as suggested above. Making them purchasable (for points, not $$!) would be neat, too. It would be nice if there were more ways to represent an Archon's cunning.

I agree. I'm currently working on the concept of creating a fan-written supplemental codex that revolves around Vect and other now-missing HQs. The main point would be that the Dark Eldar, while using formations or rules from this supplement, would not be able to ally with any other army. The advantage being, of course, that this supplement would give the Dark Eldar player more flexibility and advantages so that allies would no longer be needed to keep the Dark Eldar army competitive while simultaneously keeping the army from becoming overpowered. But more importantly, these new rules would be a boatload of fun, thematic, and fluffy.

This means, of course, that I'd have to carefully manage the power of this army across as many point value ranges as I can manage, and I'm planning on working in chunks of 500 points, from 500 to 3000. Any bigger than that, or any strange lists (mass anything, for example) will be beyond my scope.

So that means I'd be working on Archon HQs as well as named HQs like Vect.

A strong argument for GW on this supplement would be that it would not reduce the number of models you'd need to buy. In fact, I'm thinking about putting in some rules for mobs of slaves, which would be cheap as hell and require us all to go out and buy bucketloads of (probably) chaos cultists or similar.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

As to what I think Dark Eldar should be: they should be fast. They should be able to reposition effortlessly, enabling cunning Archons to completely shift the axis of their attacks, and gang up on enemy in one place while leaving the others clutching at smoke. Our opponents should never be certain from which direction they will take the next hit.

Do you think the Dark Eldar should be able to move quickly even when not in vehicles? I think FW has an option for some of their armies that allows a foot-slogging Warlord to "warp" across the table in some spectacular range, like 48" or something equally insane. But I don't remember if he can take his unit with him. I'd assume not.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

1 - loosen embark/disembark rules for DE so they are always getting on and off.

All excellent ideas, and eerily similar to what I've been mulling over

Creeping Darkness wrote:

2 - villainous version of Battle Focus, run then charge or something like that, or can run onto a transport after firing or heck just run d6 + 3

How about a Battle Focus similar or equivalent but only if that unit has caused at least one death...? That's just off the top of my head, don't put too much weight on it.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

5 - old school webway portals, except with moving into one deployed portal then out the other!

Yeah, I was thinking about some kind of "permanent" portal, or maybe one that lasts... D3 rounds? Or one that could fade any turn after deploying on a 4+. It would go a long way to making Dark Eldar less dependent on vehicles, but I don't know if that's a bad thing considering how many Venoms GW must be selling

stilgar27 wrote:

To be perfectly honest, we could "fix" our codex and bring us up to craftworld/admech with 4-5 simple changes, but it wouldn't bring the character of the dark kin to the front in the ways we're discussing here.

Exactly my point. There are probably only a half dozen key points that could make us highly competitive, but they're just statistic buffs, which are boring and therefore wrong.

In the FW Horus Heresy Rules, units can take what is called a Suspensor web (A heavy weapon with a suspensor web effectively allows the firer to treat the weapon as having the type Assault rather than heavy). This would be something you could give the Dark Eldar that would make them more mobile without giving them battlefocus on footsloggers.

I think that battle focus would not fit the idea of dark Eldar. We are no monks after all. I think giving our vehicles the ability to move three inches further without any changes would be awesome. Or simply give us back the old night shields. Or a more common method to deep Strike in turn one. Make us null deployment able. We should be just as good in it than Space Marines.

To reflect our 'flavour' in game terms I'd like to see:

Ability to have Night Fight for the entire game if Night Fight is active (ie, 4+ at start of game)
All our units can arrive via WWP if desired combined with immunity from the "autolose if no units on table" rule (other than if all units have been destroyed or are in ongoing reserve)
Initiative test for units to disembark from an open-topped vehicle that has travelled >6" and to avoid damage from vehicle explosions
Power from Pain that actually reflects the amount of pain given and/or received

Yeah, Power from Pain can be reworked, cause right now it might as well can be called Power from Waiting.

How about this.

Power from Pain. You get a pain token to the pool if at least one model in an enemy unit is removed as a casualty. When you completely destroy enemy unit you get 2 pain tokens.

The more pain tokens you have in the pool, the more defensive buffs you get:

3+: FnP (5+)
5+: FnP (4+)
7+: Fearless

You can spend pain tokens from the pool to have certain offensive special rules for chosen unit for one game turn:

List of Special Rules
Hatred
Furious Charge
Rage
Etc...


I.E. a mechanic that reward causing pain and suffering in the form of added defense, and allowing to risk this defense for more offense. If you will suceed with add more pain to the pool, if you will fail, you will lose all added defense.

I like the concept of pain pool. Spending points to gain short term benefits, but, doing so, lower the total pain you harvested on the battlefield.

In the fluff, I see 2 differents ressources harvested by the dark eldars. Prisonners, for later torturing, and pain itself. I see some vehicules without any fighting capability with the sole purpose to collect the ambiant pain waves the slaughter cause. This energy could be used to rejuvenate wounded units on the battlefield.

The overall design in 7th was actually something I had hope for.  By giving everyone a milder PFP that increased over time, designers were encouraging us as an army to close aggressively with the enemy and depend less on shooting or single deathstars as the game went on.  That "felt" pretty dark kin to me especially when you consider the fluffy need to take prisoners and feed.  In practice however, it becomes clear the designers probably never played a game using these rules before they published them.

We realized quickly that you can't buff up individual units with pain tokens the way you used to, which combined with other nerfs to FNP and troop options, really only leaves you with 1 troop type (wave to your wyches, wracks, and hellions on that shelf they'll never leave).  Kabalites however are basically allergic to assaults.  They have no grenades, can't fire weapons (unless you took a blaster) before a charge, and are best taken in tiny units.

So ya we end up with fleet, 4 WS, 5 I, furious charge troops on turn 4 or sooner... which you would basically never charge into anything under any circumstances.  That's our "special trick"^^, our design principle right there.  The only units I've found to work with this poorly thought out strategy are scourges and to a lesser extent reavers.

So how do we actually make this design strategy work for GW?  Well we just need a way to make all of our units more like scourges or reavers.  Some simple faction-wide rules might do the trick;

1) Any model with the fleet rule may also charge after it has run (fleet reroll on all 3d6)
2) Any model with the fleet rule are considered relentless while embarked and for the purposes of charging (heavy weapons still snap fire if you moved on foot) 2.5) Alternatively, replacing splinter rifles across the board with shard carbines (which look very similar) might be a better fit.
3) All models with the fleet rule also carry the hit and run, and hammer of wrath rules, make the HOW rending for good measure.  (Back in the 3rd edition fluff they claimed the dark eldar's increased combat ability came in large part from all the blades and spikes on their armor.  We have basically been wearing blade-vains all this time people!)
4) Kabalite warriors need assault grenades (3 point drooling meat-shield cultists get assault grenades, but technologically sophisticated millenniums old mercenary raiders don't? makes sense!)

These rules could be added via PFP or just from the get-go.  Combined they would lead to an infuriatingly fast and potentially deadly melee force versus most enemies.  

As a side note:

I'd also like to see us get adamantium will as a faction-wide.  because all we do. all day. for 10,000 years. is deny the warp.  Also we should totally get our own version of the culexus assassin, I'd really like to see the mandrakes as mini-versions thereof.  They've  already got the "infiltrate and look cool doing it" part down.  They also used to depend on energies of enemies for their ranged attack if you remember.

Talos and chronos of course need to be type Jump monstrous creatures, because name me another model that comes on a flying base and can't move more than 6" or deep strike.

/rant off

Oh! A mandrake shooting attack being more efficient if used against a Psyker would be damn awesome! Maybe increase the strength one point for every psy level!

Make our enemies fear for their psyker if they are fighting us. We hate them. We despise them!

Mandrakes being able to "jump" from a cover zone to another 12 inches distant. That would get their "sneaky bastards" feeling

Maybe those mandrake could step out through the Web way when shot at...like warp spiders teleport away. Perhaps on a successful cover save the model vanishes to be redeployed in coherence with the unit