Who can an Archon trust?

So from knowledge I've learned online and entries in the codex, basically, if someone kills an archon they can take its place as archon of said Kabal, but, Kabalites are very committed to their kabal, and archon, so I feel like maybe he would only fear other Kabals followers, and if he has to fear his whole Kabal to begin with, and its that common, what doesn't stop some Kabalite firing a Dark lance threw the archon as the battle is nearing its end to take his place, and at that, do the mercenary groups like, Scourge, Incubi, and Wych Cults ever attempt on the archons life?

Well anyone can be a spy and an assassin... Even one who seems to be the most loyal Kabalite Bodyguard... Discount just one possibility and you can pay with your life...

aurynn wrote:

Well anyone can be a spy and an assassin... Even one who seems to be the most loyal Kabalite Bodyguard... Discount just one possibility and you can pay with your life...

Exactly. However, Incubi have a very good reputation when it comes to that.
As long as an Archon fulfills their needs, they will not double cross him and actually make somewhat trustworthy second in commands.

And if an Incubus really does kill his Archon, he will be hunted down and killed by the Incubus Brotherhood (forgot its exact name). After all, they have a repuatation to protect.

Yeah it is better to trust only in yourself as an archon.
And there you should be at least suspicious now and then, just in case.

Trust is overrated. Having your puppets ... uhm, loyal followers entangled in a web of lies and fear keeps them busy watching their own back, rather then starting to think about how they can get your throne.

I guess the only thing you can really 'trust' as an archon is that you make yourself important enough for most of your kabal, making sure that they got more to loose then to gain from your early dark lance to the chest type of retirement.

The only thing an archon can trust is that everyone will betray him. Incubi are loyalish, though.

Also I think that to a certain degree Haemonculi are trustworthy as well, because they sure as hell don't want to piss off an Archon and his Kabal. But that's a matter that depends on the size and power of the Kabal and the Coven.

But for a small Kabal in low Commorragh it could likely be the opposite.

Well it makes sense, I just mean, can he really not trust his own Kabal? Like are they really that prone to probably kill their leader? After all I feel like after the hard and grueling work it takes to even get into a Kabal they'd be very loyal and grateful, to at least maybe have the balls to attack while he's not in the middle of battle? and are there any tales in the codex that mention a Current archon who shot his previous in the middle of battle?

In essence; nobody.

Refer back to any mob book or film, as essentially a kabal is run like a crime family-- an archon can keep himself in power as long as he keeps his lackeys in check, busy or fearfully respectful enough to buy him a while longer in power-- the latter which demands a little violence. No doubt even Vect has to deal with assassination attempts from his own lackeys, even to this day-- it's just that he's gotten very, very good at deflecting them over some millenia as head honcho of the dark city; thus it stands that nobody's power or position is ever truly guaranteed as a dark eldar. Sybarites, Archons and even Haemonculi have to assert their right to reign-- DE society is but a brutal, relentless meritocracy where the strongest and most cunning are king.

To answer Fume Knight, I would say the chances of an archon being killed in action by his own henchmen is probably far from unheard of-- though his bodyguards should be there as much to protect him from his own minions than from outside parties. I think it's implied somewhere in the fluff of Vect's uprising that a certain High Archon is mysteriously hit by a dark lance during the conflict with the astartes scum... Should be in the codex if you want a look, failing that, the 40kwikia should certainly have a detailed account of it.

I'm pretty sure there's a relative amount of loyalty from Archon Courts-- Llhameans, Sslyth and all that are fairly trustworthy-- especially those that aren't actual eldar, though it would be foolhardy not to keep an eye open nevertheless... One can never be too paranoid in Commorragh after all!

Jimsolo wrote:

The only thing an archon can trust is that everyone will betray him. Incubi are loyalish, though.

Like all mercenaries, trust comes with currency.
The fluff says that the Sslyth are fairly loyal. I guess they have simple needs. Needs of monetary value

Hmm interesting, and yeah, I just assumed that there would be consequences of someone killing the Archon, I'd figure the only thing that would stop someone from taking his life on the battlefield is probably that the rest of the people there would have a shootout with each other and the only survivor would be the new Archon.

I just would wonder, the Archon who organizes raids, getting souls upon souls for his ENTIRE Kabal to consume, would amost keep his own group from attempting on his life, I feel like an Archon who is extremely good at what he does, would have a far, far less chance of being attacked, whereas an Archon who hardly plans raids, very inactive, his Kabal doesn't get many souls and many of his kin along with himself begin to decay, is when there would be very many attempts on his life.

The Archon who does many raids, and his Kabal is just swimming in souls wouldn't plan on attacking an Archon at full power, and who is also fueling the Kabal. But I suppose I could be wrong. haha

The Fume Knight wrote:

I just would wonder, the Archon who organizes raids, getting souls upon souls for his ENTIRE Kabal to consume, would amost keep his own group from attempting on his life, I feel like an Archon who is extremely good at what he does, would have a far, far less chance of being attacked, whereas an Archon who hardly plans raids, very inactive, his Kabal doesn't get many souls and many of his kin along with himself begin to decay, is when there would be very many attempts on his life.

The Archon who does many raids, and his Kabal is just swimming in souls wouldn't plan on attacking an Archon at full power, and who is also fueling the Kabal.   But I suppose I could be wrong. haha

I believe it's mentioned in the Codex that an Archon who regularly launches successful raids can count his position as reasonably secure- the more successful raids they launch, the more powerful and wealthy they become; the more mercenaries loyal only to their coin can be hired; the more mutually-beneficial alliances can be brokered; etc. Those opposed to him/looking to supplant him would probably bide their time and make their move in a moment of weakness/seek to discredit him or some biz.

While I'm sure assassination attempts during realspace raids aren't unheard of, I think they'd be somewhat counterproductive. Everyone prospers from a successful raid- the Kabal's power is secured or expanded, and the Dark City gets a new influx of much-needed victims. Archons come and go, but the Kabal lives on, and many Kabalites are fiercely loyal to their Kabal, and woe betide the foolish underling who endangers the success of a raid (and thus, the position of the Kabal) in an attempt to open up a promotion for himself. It's probably an unspoken rule that you don't do that kind of thing on the battlefields of realspace (or if you do, make it look like an accident, make sure the mission succeeds, and make sure no one knows it was you)

The incident Fidra mentions is certainly there, but I think it's allowable under those unspoken rules, since those Space Marines didn't have a hope of overpowering the Dark City, and Vect engineered the whole affair specifically to take out his rivals in the crossfire.

If an archon IS well liked, you can bet someone will be pissed if he's assassinated, you just draw a target on your back. That's why I don't understand why plots are drawn out so quickly in Commoragh, you are IMMORTAL, you have millennia to plan, why not use it?

Because as a race Dark Eldar are impulsive and impatient, very oxymoronic to their lifespan.

An Archon would know better than to trust someone, it's probably how he got into power in the first place It's the piratey way!

I guess we aren't that far from orks, as dawn of war's Sindri said "Orks are not unpredictable, quite the contrary, you can rely on them to turn against you"

There is a unspoken rule saying you don't backstab during a raid. Raiding is essential to the Commoragh survival and crippling the flow of slaves for revenge or power is very dangerous for your life. But it has been done before.

The incident with Vect was during his rising to the head of commoragh. He made someone backstab a Noble House lord with a dark lance.

And, in general, nothing realy prevent you to kill an Archon and take his place. It's not "illegal". BUT, if you do so, someone WILL challenge your right to lead the kabal, and try to kill you. You need to prepare your rising to prevent that person to kill you. Which include:

-have agreements with other strong figures of the kabal.
-Have assassins ready.
-Have some ways to blackmail a rival.
-Ally with a kabal of the same size.


But every one of these way are dangerous, because those ones can betray you. So, you need to combine them. Blackmail your assassin, use a smaller kabal to attack your own, then, use it to blackmail your rival.

The path of the archon is a very sloppy path.

Nobody, is the short answer. Pay anyone whatever you want to pay them, there's always somebody in Commorragh who can pay them more.

The thing to remember as well is that the Haemonculi exist. Coups in Dark Eldar society can't just be a case of "insert knife into back; repeat as needed", as if you just do that, the Archon just revived in the labs of the Haemonculi, and now he's giving you back over to the Haemonculi as payment for his revival, and as an example to everyone else.

You'd need to be absolutely certain that he doesn't have a part of himself hidden away in a Haemonculi lab in a container marked "in case of coup, reopen". You need to make sure that the body is entirely disposed of so that a supporter can't take a bit without you knowing to revive him, or that it's not a body-double, or any of the other many, many safety precautions an Archon might take. Are you sure those co-conspirators are trustworthy? Maybe they think it's worth more to turn you over to the Archon for a reward.

GW tends to exaggerate just how unstable an "evil/chaotic" (lower-case 'c') faction is. If the Dark Eldar betrayed each other as often as GW says, Commorragh would be depopulated within centuries.

I get the feeling that sure, they'd backstab their way up the ladder if possible. But since they're not stupid they know that just going up and killing someone might cause problems. There is NO reason for some lowly Kabalite to murder a Archon since that will, in the case that the archon accualy dies, not benefit them in any way and just might backfire and kill you in some way. Most likely there would be some power struggle as higher ups fight for the Archon seat. And if the Kabal is fighting internally the kabal isnt out raiding and becoming richer.

Unless you're second up and the Kabal is mispleased with their Archon due to bad raids and loss of power, it's not worth it.

Don't forget: Azrubael Vect started as a lowly slave, i guess he certainly jumped over some rungs up the ladder.

It certainly is risky but i think Vect's Kabal system allows the strong and the clever to rise, sometimes rather fast, no matter where they come from.