New GW "update style" codexies

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So maybe an update codex wouldn't be too bad for us.

Tau already was a strong codex and they got even better new units.

I mean:

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DE Air Superiority:
1 Razorwing
1 Void Raven

Rules: Ignore shaken and stunned with 2+.
Beginning of the turn, roll a D6 for each lost hull point. If you roll a 6, recover 1 HP.

Would not do anything to make the bomber worthwhile.

or:

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DE Fire Support:

- 2 Ravagers
- 1 unit Scourges

Rules: They formation can combine their shooting attacks and shoot as a single unit. When doing so, they get Tank and monster hunter SR.

Would still be not enough.
Tau can do this because they got a lot of cheap shooting and ignore cover most of the time. Just look at that Ghostkeel formation which causes this cheap MC to always get the rear of a vehicle. Or the Killer formation with 2 Stormsurges.

@Klaivex Charondyr I think you might have misunderstood me, I wasn't suggesting Dark Eldar get the same formation bonuses as Tau. That wouldn't make sense as for the most part we have a very different play style to Tau. I was suggesting that we might get different formation bonuses that would make some of our units more viable.

The other advantage I see with this style of update is it doesn't invalidate other supplements like the coven supplement (which on the whole is a very good supplement all things considered).

No... I got you.
The problem here is that even with different (note different does not automatically mean "better, look at KDK most of the formation boni are terribad) formation boni, the units behind it still suck if they do not get different rules/options/points.
Even if you pile rage, hatred and shred on a hellion (which is way more than an average formation does grant) he is still overcosted and not worthwhile.

Yep, i agree with Klaivex. Too many plain stat bad units without role.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

No... I got you.
The problem here is that even with different (note different does not automatically mean "better, look at KDK most of the formation boni are terribad) formation boni, the units behind it still suck if they do not get different rules/options/points.
Even if you pile rage, hatred and shred on a hellion (which is way more than an average formation does grant) he is still overcosted and not worthwhile.

I don't think that piling on more USRs would be the way to go for that sort of formation.

For example, if there was a wyche/hellion formation that allowed them to assault in the same turn that they arrive on the board via reserves (either from deepstrike, or from any other means), that would be a) fluffy, and b) useful. This is, of course, assuming that the formation wouldn't be prohibitively large/expensive (2-3 units per formation would be fine. I'd be more reluctant to use it if it required 5-6).

Just for the record, Hellions can assault after DS in Planetstrike games.

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For example, if there was a wyche/hellion formation that allowed them to assault in the same turn that they arrive on the board via reserves (either from deepstrike, or from any other means), that would be a) fluffy, and b) useful. This is, of course, assuming that the formation wouldn't be prohibitively large/expensive (2-3 units per formation would be fine. I'd be more reluctant to use it if it required 5-6).

To do what?
Getting those units into assault is not a problem. Surviving overwatch is and dealing no damage in close combat is.
An average unit of 10 Wyches (without special weapons) kills 1,6 MEQ in the turn they assault and that is without getting decimated in overwatch). In return an average squad of 8 tactical marines (yes, that means only 1 attack) kills 1,3 wyches.
So even if they can do turn 1 assaults anywhere on the table, they still get obliterated.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

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For example, if there was a wyche/hellion formation that allowed them to assault in the same turn that they arrive on the board via reserves (either from deepstrike, or from any other means), that would be a) fluffy, and b) useful. This is, of course, assuming that the formation wouldn't be prohibitively large/expensive (2-3 units per formation would be fine. I'd be more reluctant to use it if it required 5-6).

To do what?
Getting those units into assault is not a problem. Surviving overwatch is and dealing no damage in close combat is.
An average unit of 10 Wyches (without special weapons) kills 1,6 MEQ in the turn they assault and that is without getting decimated in overwatch). In return an average squad of 8 tactical marines (yes, that means only 1 attack) kills 1,3 wyches.
So even if they can do turn 1 assaults anywhere on the table, they still get obliterated.

Actually, getting into assault on turn 1 or immediately after arriving from reserve *is* a problem in 6th/7th edition. The point isn't to wipe out MEQs in assault, but to tarpit key enemy units (Devastators, etc.) or in the case of Hellions, glance tanks to death with mass S4 (or S5 if your combat drug roll is lucky) rear armor hits, allowing your other units to advance without being shot down, and allowing your non-grenaded assault units (beasts, incubi, etc.) to be the hammer to your wyche-anvil. So yes, it would be useful... and it would give the DE *something* that isn't already common to a bunch of other armies.

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Actually, getting into assault on turn 1 or immediately after arriving from reserve *is* a problem in 6th/7th edition. The point isn't to wipe out MEQs in assault, but to tarpit key enemy units (Devastators, etc.) or in the case of Hellions, glance tanks to death with mass S4 (or S5 if your combat drug roll is lucky) rear armor hits, allowing your other units to advance without being shot down, and allowing your non-grenaded assault units (beasts, incubi, etc.) to be the hammer to your wyche-anvil. So yes, it would be useful... and it would give the DE *something* that isn't already common to a bunch of other armies.

So basically you rely on your opponent to be an idiot.
Wyches are no tarpits. Not even for devastor squads and an enemy who leaves them unprotected deserves to be tabled. Wyches have no impact whatsoever. They are not resilent in melee and they are not killy either.
Also Hellions and Wyches are quite costly, especially in the light of the free stuff other armies get. This is basically a worse Skyhammer formation with troops that do not benefit enough to be viable.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

So basically you rely on your opponent to be an idiot.
Wyches are no tarpits. Not even for devastor squads and an enemy who leaves them unprotected deserves to be tabled. Wyches have no impact whatsoever. They are not resilent in melee and they are not killy either.
Also Hellions and Wyches are quite costly, especially in the light of the free stuff other armies get. This is basically a worse Skyhammer formation with troops that do not benefit enough to be viable.

This is the last thing that I'm going to say about this specific topic, as this is a 'News & Rumors' thread, and not a tactics thread.

Your own numbers contradict you. 1.6 kills > 1.3 kills. That means that the hypothetical devastator squad in this example is stuck for at least one more player turn, as they still lost the combat. Also, your example is skewed slightly because you're not taking combat drugs into account, so real life will favor the wyches a bit more (though indeterminately).

Anyway, the point is that those devastators will not be firing on your paper-thin transports for that turn, and unless your opponent devotes another unit or more to helping the devs out, they will possibly be stuck there for subsequent turns (as in the next turn, the wyches will dish out 0.96 kills, and the marines will respond with 0.90 kills, not taking into account the wyches' FNP). This possibly means even more units not shooting at your advancing vehicles at the beginning of the game. Not getting your transports downed as they move into position is *crucial* to DE victory.

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Your own numbers contradict you. 1.6 kills > 1.3 kills. That means that the hypothetical devastator squad in this example is stuck for at least one more player turn, as they still lost the combat.

Yes and now prepeat after me. This is a specialized melee unit barely beeing able to hold itself against a heavy weapon squad. And this is if both roll perfectly average. If you happen to roll a bit worse you can have your specialized melee unit running and getting killed by a specialized range unit with heavy weapons.

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Also, your example is skewed slightly because you're not taking combat drugs into account.

Neither did I assume overwatch (which will reduce the number of attacks even further) and there is still a possibility you end up with +1 I or +1 Ld.

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Anyway, the point is that those devastators will not be firing on your paper-thin transports for that turn, and unless your opponent devotes another unit or more to helping the devs out

The point is, you ASSUME your opponent is an idiot leaving his unit uncovered with wide open areas to deepstrike next to them and you won't scatter.

Getting into melee was never their issue. Preventing overwatch losses and not beeing able to kill something stronger than a guardsman is the issue and this is not solved by letting them assault from DS.

I actively wonder at times why some people play Dark Eldar if they are" the worst thing ever" seems some people can't accept that other people might do betier than them. The vacuum is all well and good to beat someone over the head with your averages (and then promptly throw averages out the window when it's convenient for you), but this is a skill based game after all and blindly pretending that it is impossible to do well with the army that we all came here to read about while insisting vehemently that everyone else think the same as you is monumentally counter productive to the spirit of this entire forum. If anyone feels offended by this post please feel free to PM me rather than further hijacking this mans thread with your tenuously related vitriol.

I don't think DE are the worst thing ever.

The argument that Wyches are bears some validity though

I still don't think we're getting a new codex, or a codex update, for years.

If you tell me why you think I'm wrong, that will at least be on topic.

To clarify , yours was not the post I disliked so strongly lol.

As to whether we get a codex, I feel that though we are much more abused than either daemons or chaos I also must admit that they have been in line for quite a while so it's important to remember we're not the only ones praying.

I fear we may get written oit like Fantasy Slaneesh because let's be honest, we're not kid friendly in any sense.

Yeah, we're certainly not the most ignored army (Sisters). And Chaos have been clamoring for a release for a while now, it's true, although the Khorne-loving among them got the Daemonkin book not too long ago.

We got our new book only a year ago now. I don't see some people not liking it being motivation for GW to invest in putting out a new one already. The only time I can think of when people not liking something had an effect on GW was when they stopped making new models in finecast (and thank heavens for that), but that was the entire costumer base, not just Dark Eldar players.

Also, do we have any idea how long it takes to produce a codex? Six months? A year? Given that they presumably published the current book thinking it was a good product, I doubt that they turned around and started working on the next one the next day.

As for getting Squatted, I'd sincerely hoped they were done with that sort of thing. And then they blew up Warhammer Fantasy, so now I'm not so sure. We live in troubled times.

Calyptra wrote:

Also, do we have any idea how long it takes to produce a codex? Six months? A year? Given that they presumably published the current book thinking it was a good product, I doubt that they turned around and started working on the next one the next day.

As for getting Squatted, I'd sincerely hoped they were done with that sort of thing. And then they blew up Warhammer Fantasy, so now I'm not so sure. We live in troubled times.

I think that our best hope for the (relatively) near future is that if GW decides to release a campaign book that happens to include DE. That will be their opportunity to provide some updates, probably in the form of new formations.

Dark Eldar get in on the Damocles Campaign, right? When does the incident where Urien Rakarth turns tau into Grotesques, then lures then tau to an empty battlefield, so he can harvest their planet, when does that take place in comparison to Damocles?

The Raven Guard and the White Scars got a lot of love in Kauyon, though not in the fluff. Maybe we will be in a continuation? That is far more optmistic than waiting for a new campaign. Although, the Salamanders marines haven't had their time in the spotlight just yet. I am not looking forward to facing off against marines who are flamer specialists to be honest.

What I want to see are more missions like in the Covens supplement, where we start away from our table edge, and can move off the table after a certain turn. Very fluffy, and reflects our status as raiders rather than a conquering army. Also, I want some of the Variable Game Length manipulation the RG marines got!

By the way, there is a LOT of Ignores Cover in the Kauyon book for both Tau and Marines. That could be very bad. Still, it seems to me, that your targeting priorities will help. Just like knowing where the tau markerlights are, and killing them first, marine Scouts now move up a notch or 2because of their ability to "spot" for other units in the new formation(s).

Calyptra wrote:

We got our new book only a year ago now.

Has it ONLY been A YEAR?!

Oh lord.....

The final stage is acceptance. You can make it there. I believe in you.

Hi, I'm the captain and I've been clean of complaining for about two months.