Kabalite Warrior or Wrack Horde?

Chaos is doing it. Orks are all about it and the Imperials have been doing it for ages. Yet for some reason, the Eldar (both Craftworld and True Kin) don't seem to be cashing in on it. I'm talkin' 'bout: horde tactics.

The stats of a Kabalite Warrior are better than that of a Guardsman (improved BS and Initiative), and both the Mon-keigh and Kabalite Warriors T3, a single wound and a 5+ save. They require commissars and/or Priests to keep their men in line. Sure it's cheaper for them because we need the Avatar of Khaine, but I'm sure that it'd be viable especially if you have the mob escorted by other units such as:

- Allied Fearless Cultists (Helbrute Formation; Cultists lead by a Dark Apostle, etc), or even
- A couple of units of Wracks accompanied by a Haemonculus each or,
- A Cronos or two with the Soul Probe

I have thought of the fact that 20 Kabalite Warriors with an Avatar of Khaine is expensive, but if it fulfills the role of an obsec horde, then it could be cool. Nevertheless if you're not into that then why not field two to four units of 10 Wracks accompanied by a Haemonculus (optional) and/or flanked by a Cronos with the Spirit Probe?

You could even ally with Chaos Daemons and have some cool converted Flesh Hounds of Khorne charge the opponent to tie them up (or use our own Beasts); many strategies and tactics come to mind.

I know that this isn't how our codex is "meant" to be played, but I think there might be some semi-competitive potential here. Thoughts? Disagreements? Prove me wrong or share ideas

Kabalite Warriors have one the big advantage of being able to shoot. And aside from walkers, there aren't many units that wouldn't think twice before getting anywhere near, let alone charging against 30 - 40 poisoned overwatch shots. And that's before adding a monstrous creature with a Melta.

Wracks have better FNP and hit harder in close combat, but cost a lot more, both points and money.
Two squads of Wracks, a Haemonculus and a Cronos can be used for a Scarlet Epicureans formation, but they are meant to be an offenive formation.

Well, I've always enjoyed the visual appeal of massed infantry:

https://youtu.be/3QdydrzwdM0?t=29


That being said, I'm.. dubious about the idea. Here are a few things to bear in mind (in terms of DE):

- IG have very cheap troops, can combine squads, can support them with priests, psykers and orders. And they don't. Because 7th edition is about as anti-infantry as you can get, and it's laughably easy to sweep handfuls of guardsmen off the board.

- DE Warriors are more expensive, but die as easily as guardsmen, and have no priests, psykers or orders to support their infantry. Haemonculi/Cronos might help a bit, but you're still relying on FNP to protect your T3 infantry. I don't know about you, but I see an awful lot of S6+ weapons - including large blasts and flamers. Hell, even if you do get some psykers, the inability to combine squads will really limit what you can do with them.

- Whilst your anti-infantry firepower is... let's say tolerable, your anti-vehicle firepower is going to be absolutely abysmal. If you're shooting at vehicles, then at least 80% of your squad is going to be doing nothing. And, Dark Lances being what they are, you're going to need an awful lot of shots to do anything. Also, it was mentioned earlier that 30-40 poison shots on overwatch would make most units think twice. I doubt it. Not unless the person is unfamiliar with math. I mean, 40 overwatching poison shots amounts to about 3 wounds before saves. So, 1 dead marine then. I suspect most people won't be too afraid of that.

- Wracks are more durable (especially with Cronos support), but their offensive abilities are pitiful.

I really don't mean to take the wind out of your sails, but I think it's important to be realistic and to understand that there's a good reason why Eldar/DE don't field lists built around footslogging infantry. I certainly don't think you'd be able to make even a semi-competitive list out of either.

If I was going to do one or the other though, I'd probably lean towards Wracks (and maybe some other Coven stuff, if possible). With T4 and 4+ FNP from a Cronos, they should at least have a modicum of survivability. Perhaps have some Talos around to help against vehicles (especially walkers). Could maybe give each Wrack squad an Ossefactor or two for shooting purposes as they advance.

I guess it just seems to me that Coven stuff is better suited for footslogging than Warriors (or, God help us, Wyches). Cost is obviously going to be more of an issue though.

One other thing - whichever route you go down, I'd advise that you use no vehicles at all. If you include just a few (e.g. Ravagers), then you're guaranteeing that they'll be hit with the full brunt of your opponent's anti-vehicle arsenal.

One other thing - as you may have noticed, this is based around tactics for Dark Eldar. It's possible that Eldar might have a unit (or units) that's even better for this tactic, but I'm not familiar enough with them to comment one way or the other.

As a renegades and heretics horde player let me illustrate how bad we (dark eldar) are at this.

A squad of 30 renegades is 90 points, if you're just sitting on an objective that unit (assuming they'll fit on one) can take 6 flamers and 3 autocannons.  150 points total for a long range anti infantry/light armor threat with a high model count and a serious charge deterrent.

20 basic kabalites is 160 points.  Putting two blasters and dark lance in each unit boosts them to 210.  Adding a covens haemonculus is another 70 points.  So 280 points for 20 fearless wounds with 2 short range mediocre AT shots, 1 longer range mediocre AT shot, and a lot of poison.

30 wracks would cost 300 points.  They're immune to psychology from fearless, but that also means they can't go to ground and can't break off from futile melee (like against an av10 walker).  Wracks do have more flexible special weapons, but that's all they get - and those cost waaaaay too much.  Ya and did I mention they can't harm, or run away from a 20 point av10 walker?  Cuz they can't.

So price wise - For every horde you field as a dark eldar player, a real horde player will field a better horde and a tank.  To be honest that's if you're lucky - otherwise he's fielding wyverns or heavy flamer sentinels or some other super cheap unit that's at least as damaging to us as a tank while being just as hard for us to kill.

I could actually go on and on about upgrades (like FNP 6+ or krak grenades x30 for 10 points) and special rules in the renegades list that we don't even come close to (like how the infantry blobs typically just go into ongoing reserves after getting wiped out), but I think the example above illustrates how bad we are at this as compared to armies designed to blob and conquer.

I also didn't add in the other 2 infantry horde units in the renegades list.  One of which is a better analogue to wracks as it has no shooting attacks, feel no pain 5+, and fearless.  Once again, these cost 3 points per model...

@stilgar27, that's a lot of good (if depressing) points.

I wonder if Corsairs will be able to build a decent infantry army? I don't know how good they are on the offensive front (though I'll hazard a guess right now that they're better than us), but with Battle Focus and Jet Infantry, it seems they can at least be very mobile.

The Shredder wrote:

Also, it was mentioned earlier that 30-40 poison shots on overwatch would make most units think twice. I doubt it. Not unless the person is unfamiliar with math. I mean, 40 overwatching poison shots amounts to about 3 wounds before saves. So, 1 dead marine then. I suspect most people won't be too afraid of that.

If it really took 40 shots from our troops to kill just one Space Marine (8.33% chance to wound for each shot, without FNP), Dark Eldar would lose about 80% of all games and 100% of those against troops with 3+ saves. Which is obviously not the case. That's one reason why most people don't do mathhammer.

On the other hand, what are the chances of a Bloodthirster getting wounded by a Bolter shot? 2.77%. For a Splinter shot, it's still 8.33%. And while most players don't know those numbers, they know from the stats that Splinter weapons can kill a Bloodthirster as "easily" as they can kill a Space Marine. Don't underestimate the psychological effect of that.

Rokuro wrote:

If it really took 40 shots from our troops to kill just one Space Marine (8.33% chance to wound for each shot, without FNP), Dark Eldar would lose about 80% of all games and 100% of those against troops with 3+ saves. Which is obviously not the case.

You did read overwatch there, right? As in, 40 overwatching poison shots kills 1 space marine.

Rokuro wrote:

That's one reason why most people don't do mathhammer.

Because they don't like the result?

The Shredder wrote:

Rokuro wrote:

If it really took 40 shots from our troops to kill just one Space Marine (8.33% chance to wound for each shot, without FNP), Dark Eldar would lose about 80% of all games and 100% of those against troops with 3+ saves. Which is obviously not the case. That's one reason why most people don't do mathhammer.

You did read overwatch there, right? As in, 40 overwatching poison shots kills 1 space marine.

On overwatch, it's 2.77% to wound a Marine. In other words: All but impossible.

The 8.33% on our normal BS still mean it would take 12 - 13 shots to kill just one.
In reality though, four Space Marines would hardly be tanking 40 Splinter shots.

Why run wracks or warriors when we can run grotesques?

Mushkilla wrote:

Why run wracks or warriors when we can run grotesques?

'Cause they're too expensive for a proper horde.

Ive seen this with guardians and dire avengers. They were sorta mid lane slogging forward under fortune and conseal, there were some forward wave serpents with something. There were some cool moves, Eldar got to ground and next turn Avatar would move in range and they become fearless and got up instantly.

Think it is doable with foot slogging dire avenger shrine.

It's the sort of army I really wish was more common.

I've done hordes with eldar guardians, and it works well for a few reasons.

1) Each unit gets it's own dedicated psyker to buff them.  Something dark eldar can't take at all.

2) Each maxed unit can take 2 (sometimes 4) durable, relentless heavy weapons.  Something dark eldar can't take at all.

3) Battle focus - craftworlders are about 50% faster while foot slogging and firing, and have a (small) chance to get in to cover after firing.

4) Guardians/avengers have further advantages including: Psyker HQ, better gear (bladestorm assault weapons and grenades), cheap support artillery, and bonuses from formations like the battle host or avenger shrine all play in to this strategy.  The avatar of khaine is also useful as an anchor point making them fearless and giving them some melee buffs they might not ever use (and in fairness we get them via PFP eventually).

The only advantages the dark eldar might have here are the longer range basic weapons, slightly lower base cost (-1 point but we lose grenades), and the ability to take/manipulate the PFP table.  I'm afraid they don't add up in to a coherent strategy.

I only have ten Wracks and they've been sitting in my case for months. I don't think I've used them since the new 'dex. It's a shame you can't take them as troops anymore, as I thought they were a decent obj sec unit to plop on things.

Reading this article, though, makes me want to take them in my next game. Not because I think they're great or anything, but possibly fun? I always liked the models and fluff. I just don't think they hold up too well.

In regards to horde, I can't really think of any plausible DE list.

On the note of Guard, I find them easy to pick off. I use my Venoms / Double Razorwings to hit their weapons teams and smash them up with Grots, Talos. The last game I played in a tourny, I fought a IG army with a Pask (spelling) Punisher who was in a unit of two additional Plasma Gun Lemon Russ's (not sure the exact name). I was able to get my Grots - Succy in combat with them with a nice WWP DS and ate them up. IMO IG are just easy to smash up, especially their infantry.

I've been keeping quiet because I really don't feel that I have anything to add: this is very interesting stuff, with a lot of good points, and I like what's been said about using Eldar Guardians with psychic and Avatar support. Just thought I'd mention that I'm listening/reading since I haven't contributed anything to a thread that I myself started

Razkien wrote:

On the note of Guard, I find them easy to pick off. I use my Venoms / Double Razorwings to hit their weapons teams and smash them up with Grots, Talos. The last game I played in a tourny, I fought a IG army with a Pask (spelling) Punisher who was in a unit of two additional Plasma Gun Lemon Russ's (not sure the exact name). I was able to get my Grots - Succy in combat with them with a nice WWP DS and ate them up. IMO IG are just easy to smash up, especially their infantry.

It's true, in the rock/paper/scissors of 40k, webway grots or razorwing spam beats most guard strategies.  As far as massed tanks go, I actually find this one of the easier strategies to defeat, if you can get close enough with heavy melee that is.  Wyverns, vendettas, hellhounds, or heavy flamer sentinels present something more of a problem for us, but with the prevalence of 3+ armor, these are less common than boring old tanks.

Honestly blobs in general aren't great, and pretty annoying to play/or against because of the sheer amount of time involved just moving them and throwing dice.  Without special rules bolstering them though, they wouldn't be (and are generally not) viable.  That's basically what the whole thread boils down to.

I'd still rather play against an infantry horde than an IK army.

The Shredder wrote:

@stilgar27, that's a lot of good (if depressing) points.

I wonder if Corsairs will be able to build a decent infantry army? I don't know how good they are on the offensive front (though I'll hazard a guess right now that they're better than us), but with Battle Focus and Jet Infantry, it seems they can at least be very mobile.

Sorry I missed the question first time.

Definitely a solid infantry army but probably not hordes.  I don't expect any corsair unit to go over model count 10.

But ya, Jet pack corsairs will basically be able to move 6 + 2d6 inches per turn, with relentless and lots of heavy/special weapons blasting away.  In a lot of ways they're more like jet bikes than infantry.  Alternatively, they could take 3+ armor and camp back field objectives - or bounce across the whole table with their (somewhat) risky aethermancy powers and take isolated objectives.  

The rangers might be my favorite though.  They are supposedly coming with assault 3 lasguns rather than sniper rifles.  Also options for melta guns, flamers, and haywire grenades, should make for a really nasty infiltrator unit.

You could make a pretty decent corsairs list without a single transport. Even better if you included walkers or flyer support.

stilgar27 wrote:

Sorry I missed the question first time.

No worries.

stilgar27 wrote:

Definitely a solid infantry army but probably not hordes.  I don't expect any corsair unit to go over model count 10.

I always thought infantry armies just had to consist almost entirely of infantry - does it matter whether those infantry are in the form of a few large units or many small ones?

stilgar27 wrote:

But ya, Jet pack corsairs will basically be able to move 6 + 2d6 inches per turn, with relentless and lots of heavy/special weapons blasting away.  In a lot of ways they're more like jet bikes than infantry.  Alternatively, they could take 3+ armor and camp back field objectives - or bounce across the whole table with their (somewhat) risky aethermancy powers and take isolated objectives.  

The rangers might be my favorite though.  They are supposedly coming with assault 3 lasguns rather than sniper rifles.  Also options for melta guns, flamers, and haywire grenades, should make for a really nasty infiltrator unit.

You could make a pretty decent corsairs list without a single transport.  Even better if you included walkers or flyer support.

I might well try a corsair list with few or no transports.

O - they're infantry.  I only mentioned the hordes because that's originally what this thread was about.  Admittedly, I do have to keep reminding myself that the jet pack units are infantry, as they function in a lot of ways like jet bikes or even more like venoms or raiders full of kabalites.

In a normal CAD, the big down side of fielding small infantry units without transports is that you effectively cut your maximum scoring (obj sec) troops down to 6.  That's often enough, but in the Corsair Coterie detachment though, it looks like we'll be able to field as many as 12 troops (1-3 per coterie, 1-4 coteries).

Can't wait to get my hands on the book and build some proper lists