New to Dark Eldar - 2000 point list

Hey guys. I'm a 8-9 year Chaos player coming out of a 3 year hiatus...so I thought it'd be fun to start a Dark Eldar army!

I generally like to plan out what I want to get with a tentative list. This list will obviously be tweaked as months past based off of experience in-game, but please, let me know what you think.

HQ

Archon w/ Agoniser, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, PGL 145 points

Haemonculus w/ Agoniser 70 points

Haemonculus w/ Shattershard 65 points

ELITES

6 Incubi w/ Klaivex w/ Demiklaives
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 237 points

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

TROOPS

10 Kabalite Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon
→ Raider 160 points

10 Kabalite Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon
→ Raider 160 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields, Flickerfield 228 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields, Flickerfield 228 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Ravager 105 points

Ravager 105 points

Ravager 105 points

Total: 1998 points

The Haemonculi sit in the two Wych squads. The Archon babysits/is babysat by the Incubi. While the Blasterborn, Warrior squads, and Ravagers flit around shooting things up, I proceed to ram the Wyches and Incubi down my opponent's throat (not literally, those spikes would hurt). That's the basic strategy formed in my mind at the moment.

The only thing I already see is that I'd probably want to fit in another Troop choice or two...but I don't know what to fit in, and what to take out to fit it in.

I plan to eventually become incredibly competitive, so hit me with your harshest critiques!
Thanks.

EDIT: Had Splinter Racks on the two Raiders with Warriors in them. Worth it? I took them out for now to make points for Shadow Field.

Imparity wrote:

I plan to eventually become incredibly competitive, so hit me with your harshest critiques!
Thanks.

All responses are based off of this request.

Imparity wrote:

Archon w/ Agoniser, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, PGL 145 points

This is an okay build - I'll explain why you should dump him outright when I get to Incubi below.

Imparity wrote:

Haemonculus w/ Agoniser

Assault Haem...to go with Wyches? Derp - how does this really make sense. Check that statline again, this poor schmuck doesn't get fleet. That means if you want to run -> assault with your Wyches this guy screws you over...or has to stay behind in the boat...with an expensive assault weapon...watching people do stuff...playing cards.

Wasted points ahoy!

That's why you see them with Liquifiers so much - the Wyches take the pain token and go running off to assault, and the Haem sits in the boat and drops flame templates on stuff. As stands, i think this guy is hurting you - make it a Liquifier and save some points for a win/win.

Imparity wrote:

Haemonculus w/ Shattershard

I like this fine.

Imparity wrote:

6 Incubi w/ Klaivex w/ Demiklaives
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 237 points

I do not like this. It sort of works/is needed in your list due to some unoptimal choices - but just do me a favor, check out the cost of these suckers (I left it in there) You big squads of Wyches are...cheaper. And are scoring units. And don't need to hide from power weapons. And are...roughly as good at eating face (especially if paired with an Archon) But, really, you don't need these guys, and you don't need the Archon either - if you drop both you gain, what, like 400 points back! That's 2-3 Troop slots, easy! That's a lot of additional shooting and attacking that is only slightly less killy. Let Wyches lock up Deathstars and don't play the Deathstar game yourself, DE don't do it as well as we used to, and the meta game doesn't need it that much eiither - focus on your entire army being an overall killing machine, Deathstars will wilt under that better than trying to oppose them with things that are directly vulnerable to Deathstars...and Wyches can kill anything these guys can, they just do it slower, which is generally a better thing anyway - plus, hey, scoring!

Imparity wrote:

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon

I like this, the NSs are sort of an indulgence in my opinion, but overall a solid choice. These are cheaper than Incubi too - and I bet 4 Blasters and 12 S.Cannon shots are pretty darn useful - just saying.

Imparity wrote:

10 Kabalite Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon
→ Raider

10 Kabalite Warriors w/ Splinter Cannon
→ Raider

These I really don't like - they ought to get a Blaster in their for maximum gain, and frankly a FF wouldn't hurt either. But you're paying a lot of points for infantry killers in a list that is already very assault oriented. 5 Warriors w. a Blaster in these boats will still be pretty decent versus infantry (in some ways slightly better, armor saves considered) and will save you easily enough points to get some more stuff into the list. DE are fragile - you really want to overwhelm the opponent with target saturation.

Imparity wrote:

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields, Flickerfield

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields, Flickerfield

Wyches, who will only be in their boats for 1-2 rounds, get more protection than the Archon/Incubi boat? And twice the protection of all the scoring Warriors who will probably be the ones needing to be alive to claim objectives? Meh...

Overall I like this build - but with 9 Wyches your clear goal is to kill things with these Wyches. The point of the shardnet is to lock things down. So, unless you're bringing it to help you tarpit Dreads, I'd drop the net and bring a flail or gauntlet - or just save the 20 points.

Imparity wrote:

Ravager 105 points

Ravager 105 points

Ravager 105 points

Personally I'd put FFs on these, otherwise this is fine.

Imparity wrote:

The only thing I already see is that I'd probably want to fit in another Troop choice or two...but I don't know what to fit in, and what to take out to fit it in.

You're correct on this, I probably saved you 500+ if you followed all my advice, but, yes, you really do want to have 5-6 Troop slots at 2000, or to have your Troop slots be overall more formidable.

Imparity wrote:

EDIT: Had Splinter Racks on the two Raiders with Warriors in them. Worth it? I took them out for now to make points for Shadow Field.

No, they were probably not worth it as they'd only help the rifles and, whoop-de-doo for that. Good call, I'd be happier with a Shadowfield Archon than a pair of racks in a list.

Looking at your army overall I like your ability to bring a solid initial hit of lance fire - though I think you could do with a touch more. If you want more assault tools I'd drop Incubi for Wyches, as Wyches are just about as good, but can also assault vehicles functionally, and are scoring, and cost less. +1 Haem and +1 Wych squad will put you in a nice place. You could also then get +1 Warrior squad and/or some combo of +1 Trueblaster unit depending on goals and desires - I think that would leave you overall a stronger list and not give up your assault goals.

Imparity wrote:

Archon w/ Agoniser, Combat Drugs, Shadow Field, PGL 145 points

Imparity wrote:

6 Incubi w/ Klaivex w/ Demiklaives
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 237 points

I have used an Incubi unit similar this quite often. If you want to include Incubi, I would put them in a raider with enchanced sails and a flickerfield. I've found that the extra movement range helps put you in position easier. You also NEED a grenade launcher. My Archon combo in this situation has been grenade launcher/djin blade/soul trap/shadow field or some close variation. It's bad when the Incubi get beat down when attacking through terrain due to the initiative penalty and opponents usually hide in terrain when they see them on the table.

My squads are usually 6 to 9 Incubi + the Archon. It's a powerful unit, but you still have to pick your target carefully because if you don't come close to wiping out your opponent, you can get hurt badly from return attacks. My usual set up is 400+ points and is a fun unit to use. I do think their reputation is bigger than their actual performance and the points would likely be more efficient as 2x wych squads.

Thor665 wrote:

All responses are based off of this request.

And I thank you for your response!

Thor665 wrote:

I do not like this. It sort of works/is needed in your list due to some unoptimal choices...But, really, you don't need these guys, and you don't need the Archon either - if you drop both you gain, what, like 400 points back! That's 2-3 Troop slots, easy!

So what role were the Incubi/Archon filling? I was thinking it was sort of a hammer to the anvil of the Wyches. Without them could 3 squads of Wyches handle themselves? Are Bloodbrides worth it?

I'm used to having units that can smash others in close combat...that might be why I'm inclined to want to take the Incubi haha.

I was looking at Beastpacks too, they look REALLY good.

Thor665 wrote:

These I really don't like - they ought to get a Blaster in their for maximum gain, and frankly a FF wouldn't hurt either. But you're paying a lot of points for infantry killers in a list that is already very assault oriented. 5 Warriors w. a Blaster in these boats will still be pretty decent versus infantry (in some ways slightly better, armor saves considered) and will save you easily enough points to get some more stuff into the list. DE are fragile - you really want to overwhelm the opponent with target saturation.

Message received. Doesn't it make them too flimsy to only have 5 Warriors?

Thor665 wrote:

Overall I like this build - but with 9 Wyches your clear goal is to kill things with these Wyches. The point of the shardnet is to lock things down. So, unless you're bringing it to help you tarpit Dreads, I'd drop the net and bring a flail or gauntlet - or just save the 20 points.

I do REALLY like the Shardnets. And I also heard that the flails/gauntlets aren't very good in comparison. Is there an optimal set up to take advantage of flails or gauntlets?

I'm working on revising the list as we speak. I'll be back!

EDIT: This is the revised list, sorry this post is a little long........

HQ

Haemonculus w/ Shattershard, Liquifier Gun 75 points

Haemonculus w/ Casket of Flensing, Liquifier Gun 70 points

Haemonculus w/ Orb of Despair, Liquifier Gun 80 points

ELITES

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

TROOPS

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Total: 1981 points

I had a 3rd Haemonculus for the 3rd Wych squad I had planned to fit in there, but now I don't have the points. Help! I need more points!

edit -

Sig121 wrote:

You also NEED a grenade launcher.

He does have a grenade launcher, that's the PGL .

I do really like the idea/fluff of the Incubi...I might still pick up some at some point to bring out every once in awhile.

Double Posting is bad - Baron Tordeck

Imparity wrote:

So what role were the Incubi/Archon filling? I was thinking it was sort of a hammer to the anvil of the Wyches. Without them could 3 squads of Wyches handle themselves? Are Bloodbrides worth it?

Three squads of Wyches are darn near one of the single most difficult to kill things in the game - as long as they're in close combat. Keep them there, and they will slowly grind up most things.
Bloodbrides are "worth it" depending on your goal. They'll do more damage, cost a bit more, and not be scoring. They are 'worth' it for the damage upgrade, the debate is - do you have the points available, and do you wish to lose a scoring Wych unit? I can't answer that for you functionally in a vacuum.

Imparity wrote:

I'm used to having units that can smash others in close combat...that might be why I'm inclined to want to take the Incubi haha.

Maybe so - just understand that DE that 'smash' their opponents too much in combat, are left in the open, and we aren't T4 with 3+ saves to deal with being shot at. Wyches in the open are pretty much dead - same with Incubi too, frankly, though they can be more durable if they managed to get FNP.

I was looking at Beastpacks too, they look REALLY good.

Imparity wrote:

Message received. Doesn't it make them too flimsy to only have 5 Warriors?

Define "flimsy" I suppose. 10 guys vs. 5 guys will take the same percentage of damage and run the same Ld risk if the vehicle explodes. 10 guys is slightly more survivable thereafter. Once your vehicle is destroyed, however, you're pretty easy to kill - and I find 5 men to be as functional as 10 for that purpose. Understand though - survivability will never be a strength of DE, you don't build around survivability - you build around hurting the opponent, the only thing that prevents us from dying is if we get them to die first - that's the core of DE list design on a competitive theme.

Imparity wrote:

I do REALLY like the Shardnets. And I also heard that the flails/gauntlets aren't very good in comparison. Is there an optimal set up to take advantage of flails or gauntlets?

Optimal? My basic method is this - take enough Wyches to do the amount of damage you want to do. If you want to add a flail/HG then see if there is any open space in the transport - if there is just take another Wych. If there isn't more space - then it's time to take a flail or HG. I would break them down this way;

Flail - more reliable.
Gauntlet - higher possible gain, no negative interaction with drugs.

Both are good. Nets are good too, they just have a different purpose.

==================================================================

Imparity wrote:

Haemonculus w/ Shattershard, Liquifier Gun 75 points

Haemonculus w/ Casket of Flensing, Liquifier Gun 70 points

Haemonculus w/ Orb of Despair, Liquifier Gun 80 points

I'm personally pretty neutral on the Casket and the Orb - usually I just find a Liquifier more reliable and prefer to save the points. YMMV. Also - 3 Haems and 2 Wych squads, did I miss something, or did you?

Imparity wrote:

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

5 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 195 points

I missed noting this the first time, but - I would totally sack the non-Blaster guy from each squad. He's basically pointless and you're burning over 30 points "in case" something bad happens. DE don't play like that - if something bad happens to those Trueborn thn it's their fault, and they better have done what you already needed done. Drop the extra mook and save the points for elsewhere.

Imparity wrote:

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

Big fan of these builds, they'll put a nice dent in opposing armor and are still good Gunboats for late game infantry killing.

Imparity wrote:

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Shardnet, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

Fine with these, though I still disagree with the Shardnet - you're basically giving up inflicting 1-2 extra wounds for the possibility to remove 1-2 attacks...meh. Let them beat against your 4++ and FNP with their cruddy attacks, just stab them in the face more.

Imparity wrote:

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravishing.

Imparity wrote:

I had a 3rd Haemonculus for the 3rd Wych squad I had planned to fit in there, but now I don't have the points. Help! I need more points!

Drop the extra Trueborns for +30, drop all the random Arcane Gear from the Haems, drop one of the Warrior boats - I'm pretty sure that gets you there. Dropping Shardnets could also serve the purpose if my quick mental math is wrong.

Thor665 wrote:

Drop the extra Trueborns for +30, drop all the random Arcane Gear from the Haems, drop one of the Warrior boats - I'm pretty sure that gets you there. Dropping Shardnets could also serve the purpose if my quick mental math is wrong.

I think this is the best advice I see for a lot of people when writing DE lists. DE upgrades are often highly attractive...and drain points fast. So many lists contain a squads' (or more) worth of upgrades that are less efficient than another unit.

A few points on the list:

-DE are all about balance in the list writing. You want a competitive list? It needs balance. You drop some AT, you take AI. You don't have much troop (bad choice), you better have a great plan on protecting them. If someone is used to MEQ, they are in for a surprise. MEQ armies tend to have decent survivability combined with solid AI and some poor AT in Bolters. DE have mostly one dimensional units with expensive duality.,

-Incubi are nasty against marines, but only good against horde. Therefore, I generally don't want them because they take too much balancing to get into a list. They cost about the same as two squads of Wyches, which are scoring.

-3 Wyches is nasty. Five is jack-you-up. Most armies can only shoot so much. Wyches, I argue, are the best troop in the game when given Haywire Grenades. You can't take too many(sort of-don't take me literally).

-5 Warriors with a Blaster are better than 10 with a SC because they are more focused, not in general. 10 Warriors have a use, but just giving them a SC is not one of them. Ten with a DL or with two weapons is starting in the right direction.

-Nightshields are good on a Ravager because you always want to be at longer range with them. They have 36" range, so if you are hovering at around 30-32" you are negating weapons with less range than yours. With TB with Blasters, you are looking to creep into 18" range, which means you are looking at around 20" range, which isn't worth the points for the NS in most instances.

(Sorry about the double post earlier)

This is my final list for now:

HQ

Haemonculus w/ Casket of Flensing, Liquifier Gun 70 points

Haemonculus w/ Liquifier Gun 60 points

Haemonculus w/ Liquifier Gun 60 points

ELITES

4 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 183 points

4 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 183 points

4 Trueborn w/ 4 Blasters
→ Venom w/ Night Shields, Splinter Cannon 183 points

TROOPS

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster
→ Raider w/ Flickerfield 130 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Hydra Gauntlets, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Hydra Gauntlets, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

9 Wyches w/ 1 Hydra Gauntlets, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
→ Raider w/ Night Shields 218 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Ravager w/ Flickerfield 115 points

Total: 1998 points

I've taken most of your advice into consideration here. The only thing I REALLY regret dropping from this list is the Shattershard...the Casket is just to make up for the remaining few points. With the shattershard the list is just barely over 2000, sadly. I do wish I could fit it in as the devastation it could do is, in my mind, REALLY amazing for its points cost.
But, you know. Whatever.

I think this list is looking pretty good.
Thanks for all of your help Thor, you've been very patient and helpful.
1) If there's anything else you can think of, let me know.
2) I'll let you guys know how I do with my DE list as I start playing games!

a1elbow wrote:

If someone is used to MEQ, they are in for a surprise. MEQ armies tend to have decent survivability combined with solid AI and some poor AT in Bolters. DE have mostly one dimensional units with expensive duality.

That's exactly what's happening to me haha...I've been playing CSM for so long Dark Eldar are kind of a huge change for me.

EDIT: Also...anyone know of easy ways to convert/find blasters?

Imparity wrote:

I've taken most of your advice into consideration here. The only thing I REALLY regret dropping from this list is the Shattershard...the Casket is just to make up for the remaining few points. With the shattershard the list is just barely over 2000, sadly. I do wish I could fit it in as the devastation it could do is, in my mind, REALLY amazing for its points cost.

Shattershard is indeed great. The only "fat" I see on your list is choosing to dump the Night Shields on the Trueborn, which would net you the Shattershard, and leave you dorking around with an extra 25 points and not a lot to use it on...at that stage your option is really to start other snipping (like taking all the Trueborn to 3 man squads, and maybe sacking Wych Weapons) in order to buy yet another full unit. That's a personal value call at that stage.

Imparity wrote:

2) I'll let you guys know how I do with my DE list as I start playing games!

Look forward to this - it's half the fun...actually, from *my* side it's more like 70% of the fun

Imparity wrote:

EDIT: Also...anyone know of easy ways to convert/find blasters?

I've got a couple of tricks depending on the looks you want for your blasters. Here's some I've used/heard of;

1. Take the Shredder, snip off the 'flanges' on the barrel - insta Blaster.
2. Take the Shredder - do a barrel swap with a Blast Pistol - insta Blaster.
3. If you're getting any RJB sets - they have a Blaster bit you can use. It is a Blaster.
4. Use a Blast Pistol tip with a Dark Lance cut off at the joint where the 'bulb' meets the barrel - insta Blaster.

Hope some of that helps.

list looks solid, the only way I can see to get some points back for the shattershard is maybe the Night Shields off the TB venoms, and with the leftovers you can probably add some shock prows on the Ravagers, or Venom blades on the haemies (just in case sometimes you want to get them out and assault with the wyhes)