Dreaming about Dark Eldar design

Currently we're pointed towards spamming empty venoms with minimum squads of warriors that hop into cover at the earliest possible convenience. With a Lhamaean HQ. While avoiding fighting for as long as possible. I'm dying of an overload of fluff just writing this.

After some thought, I think I would like to change a few rules:

Soul Harvest to being able to Run and then Shoot or Assault.  I think this makes the rule a lot simpler but upkeep the original design vision without off-balancing anything too much.

...and Aerial Assault to allow Dark Eldar units to count moving at Cruising Speed as Combat Speed, and moving Flat Out as Cruising Speed.  You can imagine the pain with this last rule.

Tell me why either of these would break the game.

A popular alternative I've seen come up here and there to the "Power from hiding for a few turns" table is soemthing more "Blood Tithe" like (but not quite the same).

So something like:
1) you start with 0 pain tokens
2) you get a pain token for every enemy unit and character destroyed
2.1) you get a pain token for every enemy that fails a morale test ("I can smell their FEEEEAR!!")

And then you have a chart that looks something like...

0: Nothing
1: FNP (5+)
X: Furious Charge
Y: Fearless
Z: Rage, IWND

*if option 2.1 is included the number of pain tokens would need to increase for X, Y, Z as the method of acquiring them has increased.

So the Dark Eldar player is encouraged to kill something as fast as possible to get army-wide FNP. If they keep up the killing then eventually the lowly kabalite footman is charging with 3 attacks re-rolling to hit to shove other troops off objectives while the distraction-Talos is recovering from all those lascannons and powerfists it was eating.

Of course do make open top transports everything faster. It's easier and faster to get into close combat with a thread range of 13 - 24 inches. And that's not counting in Raider turning shenanigans.

I'll give you that it's a shame that our characters can't buy bikes or wings etc.

And yes, even the Ravager is slow. Some special rule would've been nice.

The thing about the transport of the craft world Eldar is that they have to hop out. Essentially losing one turn if they want to attack. If you want to attack turn two with them: good luck not getting shot. We can Assault out of the transport. That's really nice for grotesques or Incubbi.

I like the new mechanic better than the old because it's not been easy collecting pain tokens if venoms eliminate enemy squads and not Infantry. It's the general fear and pain that radiates from a battle that makes us better. If you want to hide until round three: you can do that and it would turn the power from Pain table upside down. But what player seriously does that? This is complaining for complaining 's sake.

Again: many things do have to be changed like more bikes and gear and the witches(!!) but not everything is in ruins.

OK.  Here's what I have as my first run-through with the Codex tonight.  Keep in mind that this is designed to play with my PfP, Aerial Assault and Soul Harvest army-wide USRs.

Once again, those rules are:
Power from Pain:
T1 - FNP (6+)
T2 - FNP
T3 - FNP, Furious Charge
T4 - FNP, Furious Charge, Fearless,
T5 - FNP, Furious Charge, Fearless, Rage
T6 - FNP (4+), Furious Charge, Fearless, Rage

Aerial Assault - DE units may fire even after moving Flat Out.  In addition, they treat vehicles moving Flat Out as Cruising Speed, and moving at Cruising Speed as Combat Speed.  This allows the Ravager to move 12" and shoot all three lances, or a Raider to flat out and then shoot a lance, or a unit of Warriors from the inside shoot with full effect after the Raider moves 12".

Soul Harvest - DE units can Run and then Shoot, and/or Run and then Assault.  This increases the threat range of virtually all Dark Eldar units.

If the unit is not mentioned or called out in some way in the changelog, then it remained the same.  The + represents additions whereas the arrows represent change.

Quote :

General:
>Remove empty vehicles as an option to be fielded.
>Disallow Court to be taken without the Archon.

Armory:
Agonizer: Decereased to 20 pts
Blaster: Decreased to 10 pts
Dark Lance: Decreased to 15 pts
Webway Portal: Changed to IA11 2015, Decreased to 25 pts
Shadowfield: Decreased to 25 pts
Agonizer: Decreased to 20 pts
Blast Pistol: Decreased to 10 pts
Huskblade: +Rending
Archite Glaive: Double-handed, +2S, Single-handed, +1S
Venom Blade: +Lethal Dose
Implosion Missile: +Instant Death
Necrotoxin: +Pinning
Ossefactor: Assault D3
Phantom Grenade Launcher: +Offensive/Defensive grenades
Void Lance: S9 AP2 Lance --> S9 AP1 Lance
Void Mine: S9 AP2 Lance --> Strength D
Cruicible of Malediction: Psykers immediately suffer a Perils instead of S6
Night Shields: A vehicle with Night Shields has the Stealth special rule.  Enemy units beyond 24" counts the vehicle as Shrouded instead.

Archon:
Increased to 70 pts
+Clone Field
+Labynthine Cunning: The Dark Eldar player can re-roll the dice when they attempt to Seize the Initaitive, determine if the Night Fighting rules are in effect, and when they make Reserve Rolls.
+Hellion Skyboard: +10 pts
+Reaver Jetbike: +15 pts

Succubus:
Increased to 80 pts
+Rending
+Quicksilver Dodge: Fight sub-phase --> Assault Phase

Lelith:
Decreased to 140 pts
+Rending
A League Apart: Re-rolls all hits and wounds

Wyches:
+Rending
Bloodbride: WS4 --> WS5
Dodge: Fight sub-phase --> Assault Phase

Incubi:
Unit Composition: 3 --> 5
Increased to 90 pts, 18ppm

Mandrakes:
Unit Composition: 3 --> 5
Increased to 60 pts, 12ppm

Raider:
Decreased to 50 pts
Replace Dark Lance: Free

Venom:
Decreased to 50 pts

Reavers:
May include up to 9 --> 6 additional Reavers (9 total)
Every three --> Every model may replace

Hellions:
Decreased to 60 pts, 12ppm

Razorwing:
+Strafing Run
+Vector Dancer
Replace Dark Lances: Free

Talos:
Wounds: 3 --> 4

Cronos:
Wounds: 3 --> 4

Ravager:
Unit Composition: 1-3
Replace Dark Lances: Free
+Special Rule: Shadow Hunters
If a Ravager squadron contains three models, all mdoels in the squadron gain the Tank Hunters special rule.

Voidraven Bomber:
+Strafing Run
+Vector Dancer
+Special Rule: Chasing Shadows
The opposing player cannot use the Interceptor special rule when the Voidraven Bomber enters the battlefield.

I have not touched the majority of these garbage Artefacts of Cruelty yet, as most books tend to suck pretty bad so it's consistent.

Overall, there are some very minor point adjustments (to align them with CWE and Corsairs), but just more teeth throughout the entire army.  I've basically taken the DE design direction that GW have already set out, but just made the army more lethal while increasing their threat range, presence and devilry (Rending and Instant Death).

The "big" changes:
>More prominent heavy weapons and AP2 throughout the entire army
>Every Archon now has Labyrinthine Cunning, so let that soak in for a second
>PGL to give back Offensive and Defensive Grenades on top of Soulfright
>Void Lance is now S9 AP1, Void Mine is now Strength D
>A few new special rules added for Voidraven Bomber, Ravagers and the Archon
>Wyches now do Rending, Bloodbrides WS5, Dodge in Assault Phase
>Reavers can now be upgraded with heavy weapons on every model, unit comp changed
>Night Shields have Stealth, but provide Shrouded if enemy is more than 24" away

I plan on showing off some formations tomorrow, but a taste of what to come is a re-vamped Realspace Raiders formation (not detachment).  This formation will allow you to play the army exactly as you imagine it does in the fluff.

Lastly, can the mods move this to the Rules development forum?

HERO wrote:

The "big" changes:
>More prominent heavy weapons and AP2 throughout the entire army
>Every Archon now has Labyrinthine Cunning, so let that soak in for a second
>PGL to give back Offensive and Defensive Grenades on top of Soulfright
>Void Lance is now S9 AP1, Void Mine is now Strength D
>A few new special rules added for Voidraven Bomber, Ravagers and the Archon
>Wyches now do Rending, Bloodbrides WS5, Dodge in Assault Phase
>Reavers can now be upgraded with heavy weapons on every model, unit comp changed
>Night Shields have Stealth, but provide Shrouded if enemy is more than 24" away

I actually like those ideas. Maybe instead of giving the special instead of heavy weapons. I know that the other Eldar got that but it seems more fitting for us. Maybe the option for Haywire guns. It's fitting to give us more of this since it's some kind of cheating.

The shrouded stuff could be a bit much if we get a 2+ cover save though.

Increasing minimum unit sizes prevents any characters from joining those units if you wish them to have a Venom. I'd suggest that the transport capacity of our vehicles be raised to 6 for Venoms and 12 for Raiders.

Will take a look at the rest later.

CptMetal wrote:

Of course do make open top transports everything faster. It's easier and faster to get into close combat with a thread range of 13 - 24 inches.

1) That doesn't actually make the transport itself any faster. A Venom is no more mobile than a Wave Serpent, despite its open-topped status.

2) This is completely irrelevant for all our shooty units.

3) I can do the exact same thing with a Necron Ghost Ark, since 'fast' makes naff-all difference in this case.

4) If you're desperate for a fast example, I can do this with SM Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm.

CptMetal wrote:

The thing about the transport of the craft world Eldar is that they have to hop out. Essentially losing one turn if they want to attack.

But again, that only applies to melee units - all their shooting units can hop out and fire just fine. Not only that, but they can then fun afterwards for additional movement. None of our units can do that.

Furthermore, what about all the Eldar units that don't need transports to be fast? Their biker troops, there Warp Spider, Shining Spear and Swooping Hawk FA units? Their WK?

CptMetal wrote:

I like the new mechanic better than the old because it's not been easy collecting pain tokens if venoms eliminate enemy squads and not Infantry.

But that's easily changed.

Just turn it into an army-wide rule - then it doesn't matter who or what kills an enemy unit.

CptMetal wrote:

It's the general fear and pain that radiates from a battle that makes us better.

So why are we starting the battle now? Why don't we just wait until we've absorbed our maximum pain and then attack at our full potential?

CptMetal wrote:

If you want to hide until round three: you can do that and it would turn the power from Pain table upside down. But what player seriously does that?

One who's playing how the table encourages them to?

CptMetal wrote:

This is complaining for complaining 's sake.

Really? We're devolving into the 'all legitimate grievances are just haters' "argument". Come on, Cpt, you're better than that.

CptMetal wrote:

Of course do make open top transports everything faster. It's easier and faster to get into close combat with a thread range of 13 - 24 inches. And that's not counting in Raider turning shenanigans.

I'll give you that it's a shame that our characters can't buy bikes or wings etc.

And yes, even the Ravager is slow. Some special rule would've been nice.

The thing about the transport of the craft world Eldar is that they have to hop out. Essentially losing one turn if they want to attack. If you want to attack turn two with them: good luck not getting shot. We can Assault out of the transport. That's really nice for grotesques or Incubbi.

I like the new mechanic better than the old because it's not been easy collecting pain tokens if venoms eliminate enemy squads and not Infantry. It's the general fear and pain that radiates from a battle that makes us better. If you want to hide until round three: you can do that and it would turn the power from Pain table upside down. But what player seriously does that? This is complaining for complaining 's sake.

Again: many things do have to be changed like more bikes and gear and the witches(!!) but not everything is in ruins.

HERO wrote:

Spoiler:

I still hate that style of PfP, but the rest looks good.


With regard to PfP, if you want to keep the table format, what about splitting it so that Kabalites, Wyches and Coven stuff get different bonuses? As it is, the bonuses are all melee focussed - which are of little use to stuff like Kabalites, Trueborn, Scourges etc.

So, how about Coven units use the Coven PfP chart, Wyches use the one above, and Kabalites have a more shooting-focussed one. Maybe something instead of Furious Charge and Rage, have Preferred Enemy and something else. Relentless maybe?

The Shredder wrote:

But that's easily changed. tongue

Just turn it into an army-wide rule - then it doesn't matter who or what kills an enemy unit.

Okay, that could work but that could lead to battle where we simply can't achieve much power from Pain because the enemy has only a few units. What about that?

CptMetal wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

But that's easily changed. tongue

Just turn it into an army-wide rule - then it doesn't matter who or what kills an enemy unit.

Okay, that could work but that could lead to battle where we simply can't achieve much power from Pain because the enemy has only a few units. What about that?

Well, that makes more sense than achieving PfP by not actually doing anything.

HERO wrote:

OK.  Here's what I have as my first run-through with the Codex tonight.  Keep in mind that this is designed to play with my PfP, Aerial Assault and Soul Harvest army-wide USRs.

I mentioned this in the thread on improving Wyches, but I think all our vehicles should have Strafing Run and Ravagers should have Tank Hunters by default.

I also think our Splinter weapons should be made Poison 2+ (or at least 3+), which, at S1 AP5 still, I don't think is particularly OP on cheap(ish) troops. Then our current Poison 2+ weaponry would be made Fleshbane, which would have no difference for the most part, except against those units that can only be wounded by Poison on a 6.

Admittedly, this was before your proposed army-wide rules, but even together I don't think it's overpowered.

A few thoughts on the proposed changes

General:
>Remove empty vehicles as an option to be fielded.
Why? Pretty much all other codexes have this now and it would absolutely screw us over as allies compared to any other army.

>Disallow Court to be taken without the Archon.
I can see the fluff reasons but is it really necessary? Given the proposed bonuses to Archons and Succubi, people will be more inclined to take one of them as an HQ but it’s nice to have the option for a cheap HQ, particularly if using DE as allies.

Armory:
Agonizer: Decreased to 20 pts Still over-priced. I’d say 15 tops
Blaster: Decreased to 10 pts I’d also change to Assault 2
Dark Lance: Decreased to 15 pts I’d also change to Heavy 2
Webway Portal: Changed to IA11 2015, Decreased to 25 pts
Shadowfield: Decreased to 25 pts
Blast Pistol: Decreased to 10 pts I’d also change to Assault 2
Huskblade: +Rending I’d also reduce point cost to 15
Archite Glaive: Double-handed, +2S, Single-handed, +1S
Venom Blade: +Lethal Dose
Implosion Missile: +Instant Death
Necrotoxin: +Pinning
Ossefactor: Assault D3
Phantom Grenade Launcher: +Offensive/Defensive grenades for whole unit?
Void Lance: S9 AP2 Lance --> S9 AP1 Lance
Void Mine: S9 AP2 Lance --> Strength D
Cruicible of Malediction: Psykers immediately suffer a Perils instead of S6
Night Shields: A vehicle with Night Shields has the Stealth special rule.  Enemy units beyond 24" counts the vehicle as Shrouded instead.

Archon:
Increased to 70 pts
+Clone Field
+Labynthine Cunning: The Dark Eldar player can re-roll the dice when they attempt to Seize the Initaitive, determine if the Night Fighting rules are in effect, and when they make Reserve Rolls.
+Hellion Skyboard: +10 pts
+Reaver Jetbike: +15 pts

Succubus:
Increased to 80 pts
+Rending
+Quicksilver Dodge: Fight sub-phase --> Assault Phase
Should have Skyboard and Jetbike options

Lelith:
Decreased to 140 pts
+Rending
A League Apart: Re-rolls all hits and wounds

Wyches:
+Rending
Bloodbride: WS4 --> WS5
Dodge: Fight sub-phase --> Assault Phase

Incubi:
Unit Composition: 3 --> 5
Increased to 90 pts, 18ppm

Mandrakes:
Unit Composition: 3 --> 5
Increased to 60 pts, 12ppm

Raider:
Decreased to 50 pts
Replace Dark Lance: Free

Venom:
Decreased to 50 pts

Reavers:
May include up to 9 --> 6 additional Reavers (9 total)
Every three --> Every model may replace

Hellions:
Decreased to 60 pts, 12ppm                   I don't think just a point decrease is going to cut it with Hellions

Razorwing:
+Strafing Run
+Vector Dancer
Replace Dark Lances: Free

Talos:
Wounds: 3 --> 4

Cronos:
Wounds: 3 --> 4

Ravager:
Unit Composition: 1-3
Replace Dark Lances: Free
+Special Rule: Shadow Hunters
If a Ravager squadron contains three models, all mdoels in the squadron gain the Tank Hunters special rule.

Voidraven Bomber:
+Strafing Run
+Vector Dancer
+Special Rule: Chasing Shadows
The opposing player cannot use the Interceptor special rule when the Voidraven Bomber enters the battlefield.

CptMetal wrote:

Okay, that could work but that could lead to battle where we simply can't achieve much power from Pain because the enemy has only a few units. What about that?

It's unfortunate, but there are always going to be problem matchups. It's not much different to being alpha-striked with the current codex (and basically crippled long before you get your bonuses), or facing an army like IKs - where FNP, FC and Rage on S3 T3 models are basically useless anyway.

That being said, there are other possibilities, e.g.:
- Haemonculi could perhaps generate PfP points (or tokens, or whatever we end up using) automatically each turn.
- We could get PfP points/tokens from our own stuff dying.
- Certain units could have the ability to sacrifice models to generate PfP tokens.

I don't know whether these would be appropriate (it would probably depend on how many tokens it takes to achieve anything, what the cap is etc.). But, there are possibilities for generating PfP tokens without necessarily killing enemies.

On the shrouded stuff could be a bit much if we get a 2+ cover save though..
You mean, Dark Eldar vehicles moving flat out or hiding behind ruins behind Night Shields beyond 24" of our enemies should be near impossible to hit? That's news to me!

@Count

On the empty vehicles notion..
Sure, I can see why it was done, but I did this for fluff reasons of course.  I can change this back without an issue seeing how other books have done this as well.

On the court..
Yes, we are no longer a taxi service and our HQs actually mean something to the overall strategy the allied army is planning to achieve.  There will be no discount HQ available; based on fluff and the fact that I don't support cheerleaders.  Units and upgrades should provide players with meaningful options, not just a superfluous tax.

PGL..
Yes, the whole unit.

Succubus..
The reason she does not have Skyboard and Jetbike is because the Wyches do not, so it is not consistent from a design perspective.

Hellions..
Unfortunately, not everyone can be stars.  They do offer something unique to the army though, and the upcoming detachment will be very worthwhile for them.  Keep in mind that the Archon can also lead from the board now, and that can be very rewarding.

On rules..
Thanks for all the great replies Count.. do you think you can help adjust Aerial Assault's wording one more time?  I think we're in a good place right now with the fantasy/design, but the wording is a bit off I feel.

Now,

On the topic of PfP.

I used to be strictly against GW's new PfP table and in my initial review of the codex, I called it bland, non-creative, and uncharacteristic of the Dark Eldar.  While some of these are still true, I can understand why it was done.  It was done for simplicity sake, but it was a design studio decision to move in this overall direction.  If you think about it, even the current 7th Ed. DE PfP chart is a little un-cohesive compared to everything else out there.  It requires tally keeping, which is something older GW design is known for, but is steadily being phased out.

Play with me for a second here.  Which one of these would adhere to the overall design direction that GW set out, and would be "simpler" to play with?  A chart that slowly benefits the entire army, or tracking each unit individually based on its performance.  The chart would be much easier in my opinion, but it is still not the best option all things included.  There's still a lot of special rules associated with game turns, and not all units have the Power from Pain special rule.

I think for now, the rule can stand.  If anything, I would like to make it even simpler than it is now, while still being quasai-powerful and meaningful for the Dark Eldar.

HERO wrote:

Succubus..
The reason she does not have Skyboard and Jetbike is because the Wyches do not, so it is not consistent from a design perspective.

Wait... I thought Hellions and Reavers were both Wych-y units?

HERO wrote:

Hellions..
Unfortunately, not everyone can be stars.  They do offer something unique to the army though, and the upcoming detachment will be very worthwhile for them.  Keep in mind that the Archon can also lead from the board now, and that can be very rewarding.

'Not everyone can be stars' isn't exactly a good design philosophy. By that logic, why bother fixing anything in the codex?

What about giving Skyboards an 18" move (like Eldar Swooping Hawks). That way, they might not be the best, but they can at least be the fastest. Though, I'd also suggest giving them their second attack back.

It would also benefit the Archon - since there'd be a legitimate reason to take a Skyboard over a Jetbike (which is otherwise better in every way).

HERO wrote:

I used to be strictly against GW's new PfP table and in my initial review of the codex, I called it bland, non-creative, and uncharacteristic of the Dark Eldar.  While some of these are still true, I can understand why it was done.  It was done for simplicity sake, but it was a design studio decision to move in this overall direction.  If you think about it, even the current 7th Ed. DE PfP chart is a little un-cohesive compared to everything else out there.  It requires tally keeping, which is something older GW design is known for, but is steadily being phased out.

Um... have you seen the Blood Point system in the KDK book (which was released after our book, at the time of Necrons and such)?

HERO wrote:

Play with me for a second here.  Which one of these would adhere to the overall design direction that GW set out, and would be "simpler" to play with?  A chart that slowly benefits the entire army, or tracking each unit individually based on its performance.

But, again, why do we need to track each unit individually? Can't we just track overall kills and have army-wide effects?

@Wyhcy units

They are.. kinda. But they're also distinct enough that GW decided to keep them separate for multiple editions as well as providing distinctly different models.

@Hellions

Poor choice of words I guess. I think the points decrease and a better detachment would keep things very interesting for these boys.

@Blood Points

Let's just say that GW is very inconsistent. But the one off compared to other 7th Ed. books might have been done because it fit Khorne's desire for skulls quota. Same with papa Nurgle and his tally, so I can see where they went with it. Still, the less record keeping the better. It's just cleaner and easier to handle for newer and veteran players alike.

It rewards passive play in an army that is supposed to hit hard, quickly. Hellions at the bare minimum need their second attack back to even come close to being considered viable, but more importantly why would you up the min squad sizes of mandrakes and incubi? 5 man squads of incubi remove the option of an Archon taking his bodyguard on board his personal venom, and upping the squad size of mandrakes mitigates their one use on the board

Leninade wrote:

It rewards passive play in an army that is supposed to hit hard, quickly. Hellions at the bare minimum need their second attack back to even come close to being considered viable, but more importantly why would you up the min squad sizes of mandrakes and incubi? 5 man squads of incubi remove the option of an Archon taking his bodyguard on board his personal venom, and upping the squad size of mandrakes mitigates their one use on the board

On the contrary, I think it actually diversifies play. If you want to stay back and waste the Furious Charge and Rage that come in later, then that's your call. However, the longer the battle goes on, the more assault your units will want to see. Otherwise, you're just playing with FNP.

The other changes made for squads is for box consistency. I'm fine with Raiders being the premiere transport for Incubi and not the Venom. Why would the 5 min Mandrakes mitigate their use?

Because there's no reason to ever take more than 3 of them?

The Shredder wrote:

Because there's no reason to ever take more than 3 of them?

Then you need to talk to the GW supplier because someone messed up packing that box!

HERO wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

Because there's no reason to ever take more than 3 of them?

Then you need to talk to the GW supplier because someone messed up packing that box!

I see no problems with the box. 3 Mandrakes and 2 conversion-fodder:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Works for me.

It would be cool if they gave hellions some sort of anti-tank weapon or just give them haywire grenades. Though I believe that would invade into the Scourage's territory.

The fluff for the venom is that it is a sign of affluence, similar to a chariot in ancient Mediterranean civilizations. Why would incubi and the Archon they are guarding deign to travel in such a common fashion as a raider transport?

The power from pain table currently works against itself on top of rewarding passive play. Avoid not just combat until turn 4, but also avoid any fighting at all until turn 2 or 3. More importantly warriors can't make use of it beyond fnp as their weapons are rapid fire, charging is not an option for them

HERO wrote:

Succubus..
The reason she does not have Skyboard and Jetbike is because the Wyches do not, so it is not consistent from a design perspective.

Kabalites don't have access to Skyboard or Jetbike, but that didn't prevent you from allowing them as options for the Archon, and Reavers are a Cult unit, so you're being inconsistent in your own design.

The Shredder wrote:

- We could get PfP points/tokens from our own stuff dying. [...]But, there are possibilities for generating PfP tokens without necessarily killing enemies.

I had these thoughts myself with mention of the old PfP table/Blood Tithe equivalent. DE are invigorated not just by death, but pain and suffering (and various other sensations), and from it being inflicted on their own kind at that - Kabalite armour is lined with barbs for this purpose.

If there was a more active PfP, I think it would make sense for it to be based on wounds suffered - both friendly and enemy - not just units destroyed.

And the cronos not being an abysmal sack of crap that lacks supportive capability like it used to