Interesting netlist - Kamikaze Armada

Hello!

I've found interesting mech list...

Quote :

*IMPORTANT*
All Vehicles are armed with Disintegrators
*IMPORTANT*

HQ
2x Haemonculus

Elite
3Trueborn - 2 Dark Lances
3Trueborn - 2 Dark Lances

Troops
3 Wracks // Raider with Shock Prowl and Enhanced Aethersails
3 Wracks // Raider with Shock Prowl and Enhanced Aethersails
3 Wracks // Raider with Shock Prowl and Enhanced Aethersails
3 Wracks // Raider with Shock Prowl and Enhanced Aethersails
3 Wracks // Raider with Shock Prowl
3 Wracks // Raider with Shock Prowl

Fast
(8+1) Reavers - 3 Heat Lances, Champion with Venom Blade <<<Haemonculus*
(8+1) Reavers - 3 Heat Lances, Champion with Venom Blade <<<Haemonculus*
5 Beastmasters - 15 Khymerae, 4 Razorwing Flocks

Heavy
Ravager with Shock Prowl and Enhanced Aethersails
Ravager with Shock Prowl and Enhanced Aethersails
Ravager with Shock Prowl


*I guess this is proper deployment, since FNP helps with T3 Sv5+ problems L_O.

Found here, along with "tactic".
I think that one is... interesting.
Discuss.

Some really weird choices there. 15 Khymerae, but 4 Flocks? What's the reasoning behind that?

Wyches. Ie. they act as Wyches, tarpitting enemies in CC.

Actually most bizzare thing (for me) is lack of FFields. How paying 10 points for 1/3 chance to save Your 65-70 point paperplanes can be bad? I would gladly dump few Khymeraes for that.

Its a very interesting theory... one that may merit some playtesting

I especially like the idea of a couple of empty raiders turn 1 ramming!

There's a lot of play in the list to do different things - I like his ramming idea (well...I'm *amused* by his ramming idea) but the rest of the list looks weak in some areas where it doesn't need to be, thankfully one can fix that.

He's got a lot of his primary anti-infantry tied up in suicide units which seems...gutsy.

Also, I think he's overestimating the survivability of the Raiders;

Raider vs. Rhino/Razorback (most common ram target I think you can agree)

Presuming 24" between them

Rhino/Razor will take a Str 9-11 hit
Raider will take a Str 10 hit (and will count as AV 11-13 and open topped)

Definite win for Raider? I don't really think so.
Odds are both will take one penetrating hit - and the Raider is the more likely of the two to suffer a wreck - since on a penetrate and after moving flat out it will be wrecked on a 3+
The Rhino/Razor will wreck on a 5+
The Raider basically goes into assured penetrate the bigger a thing it hits - and potentially gets away from delivering an assured penetrate in exchange (we'll ignore also trying this versus other skimmers, like Valks or anything Eldar)
...I don't see it as a winning strategy when, if they are within range to try this, they're probably within range to assault them with Haywire grenades, which will work better and for less risk.

I like the strategy insomuch as it shows why I usually advocate Shock Prows as 'fill in' points. But to base a strategy around it seems unwise.

Local_Ork wrote:

Wyches. Ie. they act as Wyches, tarpitting enemies in CC.

Oh right, good call. That's one hella HUGE tarpit, then.

Massaen wrote:

I especially like the idea of a couple of empty raiders turn 1 ramming!

WWP list! WWP list!

I would also took different Troops - Wracks bail out of Raiders (well, never mount actually) and... Commence fart sound engage sequence! [LOUD & LONG FART WITH "WET" ENDING]
For 20 points more I can pick 5 warriors with Shredders, for double cost of Wracks I can pick group with blaster.

Also for same reason I'm not sure IF first turn ramming (ie starting on foot) is good for units without ANY shooting weapon, nor chance to survive too much shooting (it's like literally 1 lucky turn of "fraging" from cyclone missile launcher). That implies... I could pick Lances to demech enemy from safe distance.



I would dump Trueborn, pick more Lances on Raiders (first turn - 12" move and delivering troops in place), upgrade Troops to Warriors and... pick Baron instead of twin Haemi. That guy could go with Beasts and give better chance for beeing first.

I echo thor - seem ballsy - It's like treating your raiders as 1 shot missiles. Once the wracks are out they will get munched.

How about....

HQ 105
Baron [105]

Elites 185
5 Trueborn, 2x Dark Lance [110] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]

Troops 810
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster [60] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster [60] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster [60] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster [60] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster [60] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster [60] Raider, Shock Prow, Flickerfields [75]

Fast 540
6 Reavers, 2x Heat Lance [156]
6 Reavers, 2x Heat Lance [156]
4 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwing Flocks, 10 Khymeraes [228]

Heavy support 360
Ravager, 2xDiss, 1xDL , Shock Prow, Flickerfields [120]
Ravager, 2xDiss, 1xDL , Shock Prow, Flickerfields [120]
Ravager, 2xDiss, 1xDL , Shock Prow, Flickerfields [120]

I've mixed Disintegrators and Lances on Ravagers for "duality". Probably worst idea ever. I also could dump FFields on them.

Looks a little weedy for 2000 - probably I'd be shifting bikes into the Elite slots myself to get more Trueborn - I'd rather have Lances or Blasters in Venoms than RJBs, myself.

The Dissies are a good idea, but looking at the list I see a lot of struggle dealing with infantry. Maybe more beasts? Maybe get some Venoms in Elite slot? Maybe (egads) S/cannon paciking Scourges? I dunno, maybe even some Razorwings or all Dissie Ravagers. It's an interesting balance point because your first turn will be devastating for anti-mech, but then your "firepower" will dramatically downgrade thereafter.

Also, amusing additional thought - this list hates going second in DoW.

Yeah... whole concept kinda... sucks. However I wonder if we could took it on "another level" so it would suck... less.

Maybe... exchange Bikes with Scourges (they have some AI punch as well as AT) and remove biggest point suckers - Lances on TB (pick SC instead)?

Spitballing here;

Shocking Prowess (2,000 point list, original idea not mine - awesome pun name, TOTALLY mine)

Baron Sathy
3x Trueborn 3 men 2x Dark Lance, Raider w. Shock Prow and 2 with Aethersails
6x Warriors 5 men with Blasters Raider w. Shock Prow and Aethersails
Beastmasters - 3 w. 5 Khymarae and 4 Razorwings
Scourges - 5 men with 2x Splinter Cannons
2x Ravager w. shock Prow
Razorwing

Baron is important for first turn control, which this list very much desires.
The Trueborn set up as a gunline in high vantage points/area terrain that commands view of board.
Warriors set up with intent to scramble forward as a mini gunline horde or to hang back and shoot at stuff as it comes, depending on opponent's list/mission.
Scourges hang back for anti-infantry duty. Razorwing as well.
Raiders (save one without Aethersails) set up with goal of moving flat out for alpha...ram...yes.

Will generate 8 auto hit Str 9-11 hits that are each individually targetable.
Also at least 7 lances that can target an additional 4 targets (I'm not sure whether Ravagers should be Lances or not...probably at least one should be...maybe both, I lean towards at least one probably being better off as a Dissie Rav)
Razorwing (Dissie setup) and Scourges drop missiles and various poison shots on targets of opportunity.
Beastmasters slog forward to maul remainder/lock up oncoming (and annoyed) reprisal attack.

Thoughts
Delicate balance with the Raider alpha hit - the big question starts to be number of lances on Ravagers, because you'll want more lances to help make the alpha hit a knockout blow, but at the same time will need enough dakka to actually hurt the units that are de-meched, also, to deal with any sort of foot list or anything else - that's where the Razorwing comes in.

Not sure if Beastmasters, Scourges, and Razor will be enough infantry control, should both Ravagers be dissie? Eh... Probably those 30 Warriors and 6 Blasters ought to be able to pick up some decent anti-infantry efforts.

Scourges are kind of an...eh, for me. Are they the best option? They are eating up 130 points for, basically, just providing a pseudo Venom...I *could* turn the extra Trueborn Raider into a Venom also, which could pick up anti infantry and probably leave one of the Ravagers as lance because of that with few issues.

Is there something better than Scourges?

Would a 3x Blaster build be better for the Trueborn? I like the gunline effect, and they shouldn't really be able to take advantage of their ride if used best...what about maybe 3x Trueblasters in Venoms? That's more anti-infantry and you could scoot them all up and let them go Suicideborn for a nastier alpha hit - this could probably allow you to free up enough points to do something else interesing, nothing springs to mind.

Shock Prows on Ravagers? Eh, just did it for theme, uncertain.

Breakin' it down!

Thor665 wrote:

Shocking Prowess

Yeah that's awesome.

Thor665 wrote:

Warriors set up with intent to scramble forward as a mini gunline horde or to hang back and shoot at stuff as it comes, depending on opponent's list/mission.

Really disliking this. On foot they'll melt, break, what have you, before being able to make an impact.

Thor665 wrote:

Scourges are kind of an...eh, for me. Are they the best option? They are eating up 130 points for, basically, just providing a pseudo Venom...I *could* turn the extra Trueborn Raider into a Venom also, which could pick up anti infantry and probably leave one of the Ravagers as lance because of that with few issues.

Is there something better than Scourges?

Hehe, for these purposes? Hellions! Oh wait they're Troops now

Thor665 wrote:

Would a 3x Blaster build be better for the Trueborn? I like the gunline effect, and they shouldn't really be able to take advantage of their ride if used best...what about maybe 3x Trueblasters in Venoms? That's more anti-infantry and you could scoot them all up and let them go Suicideborn for a nastier alpha hit - this could probably allow you to free up enough points to do something else interesing, nothing springs to mind.

I really like Lanceborn, maybe 3 units of them is overdoing it.

Thor665 wrote:

Shock Prows on Ravagers? Eh, just did it for theme, uncertain.

Probably not a good idea. Too many shots to sacrifice for a ram attempt imho.

Raneth wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Warriors set up with intent to scramble forward as a mini gunline horde or to hang back and shoot at stuff as it comes, depending on opponent's list/mission.

Really disliking this. On foot they'll melt, break, what have you, before being able to make an impact.

The thing is you have to have foot 'something' to get the Raiders. The only other possible option is going Wracks with a Liquifier in my mind, but then you have to buy a Haem as well somewhere.

Now, the Warriors have the option of sitting in cover and pew-pewing at infantry, or moving up cover to cover to try and claim objectives - but, yeah, they'd have to be hugging cover like nobody's business.

Wracks would be more durable,a nd could add in assault threat, but on the flip side are unable to play a waiting game (like if the game were Annihilation) like the Warriors can. They're also less multi-purpose and are limited to only hurting infantry, but the benefit is they're harder to kill...though with less of a quality leadership so more likely to break.

I don't see Wyches as viable, though their assault+grenades might be nice, I really think so many of them would be of negligible gain.

Raneth wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Is there something better than Scourges?

Hehe, for these purposes? Hellions! Oh wait they're Troops now

Yeah, they might have a reasonable spot in the list insomuch as you do want anti-infantry, but as a Troop slot it's rough as you're giving up a ramming Raider. I guess one could do that, and get a shock prow on the extra Trueborn boat...but then...are the Beasts still viable at that stage? Does the Baron need to go with the Hellions instead? Also, the Hellions are going to be pricey, and though you could pay for it by dropping Scourges and re-investing, at that stage is it worth it for what the Hellions are bringing?

Raneth wrote:

I really like Lanceborn, maybe 3 units of them is overdoing it.

They're pretty viable for two reasons.

1. Initial anti vehicle assault - every little bit will help as if this army doesn't cripple the opponent after the rams then they'll need all the shooting they can muster to help finish the job.

2. Gunline defensive line - in Kill Points, and also just in general, 6 sniping lances will help add pressure to the enemy and force him to do *something* After the Raider impacts you want to have done enough damage to cripple him, and still force him to be reactive to your army and have to make something happen. If he just sits back and pew-pews with you than it won't go as well, we're trying to flush him into the beasts and the Blaster swarm.

Raneth wrote:

Probably not a good idea. Too many shots to sacrifice for a ram attempt imho.

Oh, I agree, but what if they suffer a shaken effect? Or get 2 weapon destroyed results? It's very conditional I'll agree, but the AV12-14 on a ram is nice.

I could see investing those points elsewhere though if you've got an idea. I'm hardly married to the idea of ramming with my precious Ravagers.

Thor is pretty well dead on. The list is, not just iffy, but pretty weak. Really I'd say bad.

It has nothing to attack horde, AV12+ spam, lists hat can protect their lower AV vehicles (Sisters using Exorcist partitions or Eldar using their vehicle upgrades or etc).

Ramming is like Pinning: a tool, not a build.

Thor665 wrote:

The thing is you have to have foot 'something' to get the Raiders. The only other possible option is going Wracks with a Liquifier in my mind, but then you have to buy a Haem as well somewhere.

Now, the Warriors have the option of sitting in cover and pew-pewing at infantry, or moving up cover to cover to try and claim objectives - but, yeah, they'd have to be hugging cover like nobody's business.

Wracks would be more durable,a nd could add in assault threat, but on the flip side are unable to play a waiting game (like if the game were Annihilation) like the Warriors can. They're also less multi-purpose and are limited to only hurting infantry, but the benefit is they're harder to kill...though with less of a quality leadership so more likely to break.

I don't see Wyches as viable, though their assault+grenades might be nice, I really think so many of them would be of negligible gain.

Well you could always make it a mix, right now your dudes will probably be fighting each other for cover. What you say is all true, and there is no end-all answer, though Kabalites are only marginally less squishy than Wyches so you may want to reconsider them.

Also: 3 Wracks w/ Hexrifle Acothyst comes in cheaper than 5 Wracks w/ liq gun.

Thor665 wrote:

Yeah, they might have a reasonable spot in the list insomuch as you do want anti-infantry, but as a Troop slot it's rough as you're giving up a ramming Raider. I guess one could do that, and get a shock prow on the extra Trueborn boat...but then...are the Beasts still viable at that stage? Does the Baron need to go with the Hellions instead? Also, the Hellions are going to be pricey, and though you could pay for it by dropping Scourges and re-investing, at that stage is it worth it for what the Hellions are bringing?

Not bringing a transport to the table is a definite downside; it's a damn shame none of our FA choices do. I was thinking along the lines of 5-6 Hellions anyway, not sure the Baron would want to be hanging out with them.

Thor665 wrote:

They're pretty viable for two reasons.

1. Initial anti vehicle assault - every little bit will help as if this army doesn't cripple the opponent after the rams then they'll need all the shooting they can muster to help finish the job.

2. Gunline defensive line - in Kill Points, and also just in general, 6 sniping lances will help add pressure to the enemy and force him to do *something* After the Raider impacts you want to have done enough damage to cripple him, and still force him to be reactive to your army and have to make something happen. If he just sits back and pew-pews with you than it won't go as well, we're trying to flush him into the beasts and the Blaster swarm.

I know but you'd need 3 (!) vantage points to make the most of it. If your WGG is big on terrain, by all means go for it, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a good spot for the 2nd unit nevermind the 3rd.

I really don't know what to suggest. Maybe have Trueborn fulfil the AI role the Scourges were meant to, and use that FA slot to bring some Reavers for AT.

Raneth wrote:

Well you could always make it a mix, right now your dudes will probably be fighting each other for cover. What you say is all true, and there is no end-all answer, though Kabalites are only marginally less squishy than Wyches so you may want to reconsider them.

Also: 3 Wracks w/ Hexrifle Acothyst comes in cheaper than 5 Wracks w/ liq gun.

A Mix might not be a bad idea - as to your other thoughts, I agree Wyches are basically just as squishy/not squishy, but the range advantage the Warriors bring is important. I also avoid the Hexrifle like a plague, that thing is a terrible joke of a sniper weapon.

Raneth wrote:

Not bringing a transport to the table is a definite downside; it's a damn shame none of our FA choices do.

Yeah, if they did that we'd totally field the suckers.

Raneth wrote:

I know but you'd need 3 (!) vantage points to make the most of it. If your WGG is big on terrain, by all means go for it, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a good spot for the 2nd unit nevermind the 3rd.

Really? Having 2 or so pieces of area terrain/ruins in a 12" deployment zone is *super* common at my usual haunts - do you guys keep all the terrain centralized? Also, just as far as competing goes, remember you're competing with three guys - one ruin could easily host three on the 2nd floor and then another 3 on a 1st or 3rd floor.

Raneth wrote:

I really don't know what to suggest. Maybe have Trueborn fulfil the AI role the Scourges were meant to, and use that FA slot to bring some Reavers for AT.

I am uncomfortable trading two lances for 1 heat lance. But, yeah, certainly some Trueborn could go anti-infantry in order to keep the transport in the mix

Not every piece of terrain might be eligible, considering Lanceborn are static it can be pretty easy to evade them. But there's a way to make up for 2 Lances lost I think.

Drop this

Quote :

Trueborn 3 men 2x Dark Lance 86
Scourges - 5 men with 2x Splinter Cannons 130

Total 216

For this

Quote :

6 Reavers - heat lance x2 156
3 Dakkaborn - splinter cannon x2, shardcarbine x1 61

Total 217

Not really convincing I know but you could drop Ravagers' prows to upgrade HLs to Blasters.