At what points are Dark Eldar the strongest?

Hello folks!

In terms of power and match-ups versus the other factions, at what points value do you feel Dark Eldar are at their peak?  Are we most dangerous at 500 point matches? 1250? 1850?  While there are a lot of variables I'm sure, what points value do you feel is most strategically advantageous and why?

Personally, with the firepower on our transports and the quality of our warriors, I've always thought we really shine in low point matches where the table is less crowded (increasing our mobility options) and troops eat up a proportionately larger part of a factions points budget in a CAD. What do you all think?

Probably 500 points, where everyone else's superior formation cheese is unlikely to be useable, and our low-cost troops allow us to buy a lot of vehicles for the points level.

True: plus we have the option to go super cheap on an HQ and deploy some anti armor in our troops. can other factions work in some bad cheese at 750? That would allow us a solid troop base plus a little garnish: grots, Incubi and what not.

Adma wrote:

 can other factions work in some bad cheese at 750?

At 750, someone could take the Skyhammer Annihilation force with first turn deep striking relentless pinning on 3d6 grav spam followed by turn 1 charge. So, in a word, yeah.  


Bear in mind that this is where I think we're the strongest compared to ourselves at other point values. I still don't think we're THE strongest faction or anything even close. The other day I put together a for funzies 500 point Eldar list that had a wraithknight in it, haha. Probably the dirtiest possible 500 point list, where basically only space marines grav would be able to counter it.

I've been told (loudly and angrily) that at 1k and below, DE have an unfair advantage.

Jimsolo wrote:

I've been told (loudly and angrily) that at 1k and below, DE have an unfair advantage.

This might be true against some armies/lists. We do have an ability to buy a lot of vehicles comparitively at 1k and less. You think pure DE have any decent option against this list?

CAD
1 Warlock w/Singing Spear 40
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Scatter Lasers 162
1 Wraithknight w/2 Heavy wraithcannons 295
TOTAL: 497

An exercise in tailoring,eh?

Don't think it can compete, but you can field two units of kabalite warriors in raiders with lances , a lahmeaen and a pair of ravages with lances for 460. That's eight dark lances on the board plus some poison!

I murdered my friends 250pt blood angel army with just my unit of 9 Reavers....

Adma wrote:

An exercise in tailoring,eh?

Not at all. That is a list I posted a couple days ago in the army lists section of this forum as an "all comers" list. It would work well against pretty much anything.

Adma wrote:

Don't think it can compete, but you can field two units of kabalite warriors in raiders with lances , a lahmeaen and a pair of ravages with lances for 460. That's eight dark lances on the board plus some poison!

8 lances would do about 2.65 wounds per round to the wraithknight if he weren't in cover or in combat. In ruins, that'd drop to 1.33. Poison takes so much it's not even worth mentioning.

The wraithknight, on the other hand, is basically going to kill anything he hits. Averaging 1 vehicle per turn plus a charge on the occupants, but well capable of killing 2 vehicles a turn + charge.

I don't think wraithknights should be as hard to kill as they are. I think poison and sniper rounds should be gargantuan creatures weakness so that: 1 - Poison and Sniper have a well established place in the game, and 2 - So we can all stop playing GargantuanHammer. But in the meantime, this is the reality we live in.

Whoops! This is a good example of intent getting lost in the communication medium; i meant that I would be tailoring to try to beat that ridiculously nasty 500 point build!

That wraithknight is pretty darn hard to deal with. I cant think of a pure build that could swing it just by looking at the mathematical probabilities.

This unbound list might go ok:

Beastmasters (1) @ 10 pts
x 50

... so long as it's not a kill point game

Creeping Darkness wrote:

This unbound list might go ok:

Beastmasters (1) @ 10 pts
x 50

... so long as it's not a kill point game

Unbound doesn't really count, since like 99% of players won't play unbound. Then again, I wonder what percentage of players would walk away from a 500 point game where you brought a wraithknight? Haha!

Good for a 500 point tournament. Not so good for making friends with pickup games.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

I've been told (loudly and angrily) that at 1k and below, DE have an unfair advantage.

This might be true against some armies/lists. We do have an ability to buy a lot of vehicles comparitively at 1k and less. You think pure DE have any decent option against this list?

CAD
1 Warlock w/Singing Spear 40
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Scatter Lasers 162
1 Wraithknight w/2 Heavy wraithcannons 295
TOTAL: 497

How about:

2 x Scalpel squadrons with venoms without upgrades and ossefactors

Still probably not even close - too upsetting to run the maths

EDIT:

Or Lhamean (10)

2 x 5 warriors (80)

10 x wracks, 2 x ossefactor (130)

10 x wracks, 2 x ossefactor (130)

10 x wracks, 2 x ossefactor (130)

Total: 480

Edit 2: probably use the last 20 points for a blaster

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Good for a 500 point tournament. Not so good for making friends with pickup games.

Sums it up nicely The two lists deserve each other, really.

Kehmor wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

I've been told (loudly and angrily) that at 1k and below, DE have an unfair advantage.

This might be true against some armies/lists. We do have an ability to buy a lot of vehicles comparitively at 1k and less. You think pure DE have any decent option against this list?

CAD
1 Warlock w/Singing Spear 40
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Scatter Lasers 162
1 Wraithknight w/2 Heavy wraithcannons 295
TOTAL: 497

How about:

2 x Scalpel squadrons with venoms without upgrades and ossefactors

Still probably not even close - too upsetting to run the maths

EDIT:

Or Lhamean (10)

2 x 5 warriors (80)

10 x wracks, 2 x ossefactor (130)

10 x wracks, 2 x ossefactor (130)

10 x wracks, 2 x ossefactor (130)

Total: 480

Edit 2: probably use the last 20 points for a blaster

Ossefactors don't do great killing wraithknights for the same reason blasters don't. 6 Ossefactors would do about 25% less than 8 blasters. They're too expensive to field them en masse. If every wrack could buy 1, it'd be a slightly different story, but you have to spend 100 points on wracks you can't use to get 2 ossefactors that you can.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Ossefactors don't do great killing wraithknights for the same reason blasters don't. 6 Ossefactors would do about 25% less than 8 blasters. They're too expensive to field them en masse. If every wrack could buy 1, it'd be a slightly different story, but you have to spend 100 points on wracks you can't use to get 2 ossefactors that you can.

Would they? Maybe I'm doing the maths wrong but I'd work it out like:

Blasters vs WK:

8 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2.66 ish

ossefactors:

6 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 3.33 ish


Edit: Additionally each unit of wracks would do about 1.5 wounds in CC before saves assuming they don't charge.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

I've been told (loudly and angrily) that at 1k and below, DE have an unfair advantage.

This might be true against some armies/lists. We do have an ability to buy a lot of vehicles comparitively at 1k and less. You think pure DE have any decent option against this list?

CAD
1 Warlock w/Singing Spear 40
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Scatter Lasers 162
1 Wraithknight w/2 Heavy wraithcannons 295
TOTAL: 497

Court of the Archon with a single Ur Ghul x50 500 pts

Another option might be:


RSR:

Lhamean

2 x 5 kabalites

6 x 3 Reavers with cluster caltrops.


The reavers, on the turn they charged would do 5.5 rending wounds.

Kehmor wrote:

Blasters vs WK:

8 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2.66 ish

ossefactors:

6 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 3.33 ish


Edit: Additionally each unit of wracks would do about 1.5 wounds in CC before saves assuming they don't charge.

My mistake on the math for the ossefactors, but 0.67 extra wounds against a wraithknight isn't that impressive. Neither of us have been accounting for FnP either.

As for that 1.5 wounds from wracks in CC, this get's lowered to 0.495 after saves, 0.326 after FnP.

Kehmor wrote:

Another option might be:


RSR:

Lhamean

2 x 5 kabalites

6 x 3 Reavers with cluster caltrops.


The reavers, on the turn they charged would do 5.5 rending wounds.

Yeah, reavers in CC are about our best bet to damage a wraithknight on paper, but in practice, try getting 18 reaver jetbikes in base contact with a wraithknight in a single round.

It basically can't happen. And the easiest way to neutralize reavers is to charge them instead of letting them charge you, which you can arrange when you have the same movement speed as the reavers. Sure, they have hit and run. But they go down like a 5 dollar hooker in CC if they don't get their caltrops attacks.

All of this while the reavers are trying to dodge 24 S6 scatter laser shots per round.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Kehmor wrote:

Blasters vs WK:

8 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2.66 ish

ossefactors:

6 x 2/3 x 5/6 = 3.33 ish


Edit: Additionally each unit of wracks would do about 1.5 wounds in CC before saves assuming they don't charge.  

My mistake on the math for the ossefactors, but 0.67 extra wounds against a wraithknight isn't that impressive. Neither of us have been accounting for FnP either.

As for that 1.5 wounds from wracks in CC, this get's lowered to 0.495 after saves, 0.326 after FnP.

Kehmor wrote:

Another option might be:


RSR:

Lhamean

2 x 5 kabalites

6 x 3 Reavers with cluster caltrops.


The reavers, on the turn they charged would do 5.5 rending wounds.

Yeah, reavers in CC are about our best bet to damage a wraithknight on paper, but in practice, try getting 18 reaver jetbikes in base contact with a wraithknight in a single round.

It basically can't happen. And the easiest way to neutralize reavers is to charge them instead of letting them charge you, which you can arrange when you have the same movement speed as the reavers. Sure, they have hit and run. But they go down like a 5 dollar hooker in CC if they don't get their caltrops attacks.

All of this while the reavers are trying to dodge 24 S6 scatter laser shots per round.

Didn't say it was possible - just trying to work out our best bets.

I can't be bothered to run the maths on all of the following but other options might be:

Maybe big units of Lhamean - d3 wounds on 6's - not bad at 10 points a model.

Individual razorwing flocks - 5 rending attack each for 20 points and solo their leadership would be moot.

Razorwings with necrotoxin missiles.

A couple talos would certainly do the job - the problem would be getting them in combat - could perhaps combine the talos with the razorwing flocks and hope they could hold down the wraithknight for a turn in combat.

I've done the math on most of these before. You'd think Talos would do better than they actually would. I think they worked out that it'd take like 3.3 Talos with ichor injectors to take out the wraithknight in a round.

Lhameans - 10 of them would only end up doing 0.723 wounds per round after armour save and FnP.
Necrotoxins aren't good because a large blast only causes 1 hit on the wraithknight with no AP. So each missile would equal 0.218 wounds.

I've never done the math on the single razorwing flocks, but it's fairly simple math: 30 attacks>9.9 hits(WS2)>1.64rending wounds>1.08 Unsaved wounds after FnP.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I've done the math on most of these before. You'd think Talos would do better than they actually would. I think they worked out that it'd take like 3.3 Talos with ichor injectors to take out the wraithknight in a round.

Lhameans - 10 of them would only end up doing 0.723 wounds per round after armour save and FnP.
Necrotoxins aren't good because a large blast only causes 1 hit on the wraithknight with no AP. So each missile would equal 0.218 wounds.

I've never done the math on the single razorwing flocks, but it's fairly simple math: 30 attacks>9.9 hits(WS2)>1.64rending wounds>1.08 Unsaved wounds after FnP.

Well the Talos wouldn't need to kill it in a round as with 3 at least 1 should survive a round of combat.

As for Lhameans I thought instant death meant no FnP - are gargantuans excluded from this? And did you take this into account for the Talos with ichor injectors?

Forgot about ws 2 on the flocks - yeah that sucks.

@Kehmor: I didn't do the math on the Talos. Someone else did. I think it was Count Adhemar. Just citing his results.

As for the instant death vs Gargantuan's FnP, this is the rule from GCs section:

Rulebook wrote:

Any attack that normally inflicts Instant Death or says that the target model is removed
from play inflicts D3 Wounds on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature
instead.

Since it says any attack that normally inflicts instant death inflicts d3 wounds INSTEAD, that would mean that you simply treat it as D3 normal wounds against a Gargantuan Creature instead of ID, by my reading. What do you think?

Jimsolo wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

I've been told (loudly and angrily) that at 1k and below, DE have an unfair advantage.

This might be true against some armies/lists. We do have an ability to buy a lot of vehicles comparitively at 1k and less. You think pure DE have any decent option against this list?

CAD
1 Warlock w/Singing Spear 40
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes w/Scatter Lasers 162
1 Wraithknight w/2 Heavy wraithcannons 295
TOTAL: 497

Court of the Archon with a single Ur Ghul x50 500 pts

Haha, missed this the first time through. Not in killpoints games! But seriously, no one allows unbound, and if I was suggesting as much, I wouldn't have bothered with the pretense of taking that 40 point HQ!

I think it's D3 wounds instead of remove from play. But when you look at the rules for feel No Pain you'll see that it says that it can't be taken against Destroyer and instant death attacks.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

@Kehmor: I didn't do the math on the Talos. Someone else did. I think it was Count Adhemar. Just citing his results.

As for the instant death vs Gargantuan's FnP, this is the rule from GCs section:

Rulebook wrote:

Any attack that normally inflicts Instant Death or says that the target model is removed
from play inflicts D3 Wounds on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature
instead.

Since it says any attack that normally inflicts instant death inflicts d3 wounds INSTEAD, that would mean that you simply treat it as D3 normal wounds against a Gargantuan Creature instead of ID, by my reading. What do you think?

I wouldn't agree with that actually.

Rulebook wrote:

Feel no pain:

"Feel no pain saves may now be taken against destroyer attacks or against unsaved wounds that have the Instant Death special rule"

I wouldn't say gargantuans make your weapon lose the instant death special rule - just change how one aspect of it works.

Though I'd be happy to be corrected if a tournament or offical FAQ says I'm wrong. I'd say there's a very strong argument for my interpretation in terms of RAW and RAI