Bad Neighborhood - armies that make us cry.

[quote="Thor665"]

Painjunky wrote:

Im with grub. GK don't bother me at all. They are merely more expensive versions of space marines that are just as easy to kill with our shooting.

I want to watch you play them now so I can learn how you do it. I bring a LOT more darkmatter than I used to because they don't die to our shooting as easy. Do your locals not run vehicles or something? I'm floored and amazed and intrigued all in equal amounts - we'll call it flomazgued.[/quote

1) If your worried about armour, keep 36" from his antitank infantry and DL spam his mobile/long range (36"+ weapons), once they are done, and you have nightshields anti armour won't be a serious problem
2) Grey night players rely on hammer units e.g// paladins, terminators, dreadknights- paladins and terminators will fall easily to Disinergrator cannons and sustained splinter fire, its a matter of odds with that many shots coming towards you, Dreadknights are very expensive and I personally have never suffered a serious casualty from one, splinter fire works best here
3) If they really mech out, DL and blasters are good, but you can still beat their mobility, if they've got a lot of land raiders keep out of line of sight and flank them, draw them out of the vehicles if your struggling
4) MOST IMPORTANT! Keep it unfair at all times. If needs be, coagulate your entire army down a flank, don't try to hold objectives, don't try to play fair, If your entire army is on one flank and only half of his/hers is they will lose that half of the army, and the other half will be useless. I played a 10,000 (5000 points on each side 4 players-Grey Knights+Space Marines Vs Dark Eldar + Eldar) game where we went second- not good for DE or eldar. I deployed everything on the side of the map away from his least mobile units, destroyed everything on one side with very little casualties then mopped up the rest.
5) Use the right units, Wyches bloodbrides are great to slow/stop/destroy terminators/paladins, the 4+ inv takes away the power weapon advantage of the grey knights and the shear amount of attacks almost allways guarentees a win in combat

I too would like to know how to easily beat GK but I don't understand some of your points.

1) At 36" you are out of range, and his 48" autocannon dreadnoughts are still in range? NS are useless here, as he's reduced to 42".

From your other points it seems your GK opponents are nothing like the ones here. We see lots of MSU henchmen in Chimeras/Rhinos and Dreadnought spam (also Death Cultists). I only know of 1 GK player who fields a Dreadknight, LRs and GK marines and he does less well.

Thor665 wrote:

Grey Knights with Psyammo.

Dreads and Razorbacks with Str 8 and 6 multi shot weapons that ignore shake/stun results. Hate it, hate it, hate it - it's like they built it to kill us.

My solution to custom build a list for it? Eh - it'd be pretty close to my current list, lots and lots of darkmatter weapons. Lots of them. LOTS of them. Like, so many it makes people cry and call cheese on you...as they sit there with their Dreads that have Str 8 Assault Cannons and ignore shake/stun results because they're psykers...

^This

And Ward did create it to poop on DE, how else do you explain a character that does stuff an archon should (give scouts/reserves manip) I6 halberds exiat only to render Incubi a worthless choice and to add insult to injury , deathcult assasins ....

Dont get me started on psyspam, I would rather crush my man parts repeatedly with a jagged rock than endure more than one game a month vs GK, even If I win there is no chance the game will be aproaching anything you could describe as fun.

Quote :

Lol your facing palies. That's why your having a good time. I have 3 GKs players at my LGW, one is a dedicated draigowing player, the other is psybolterspam, and the 3rd is in-between. Draigowing is a joke to DE, as we bring enough S8 to blow those pails out of the water. What hurts us is payback spam. While Draigowing has maybe at most 7 targets to worry about the first few turns (5 dreads and maybe a stormraven and one psyback) we should have enough darkmatter to deal with that few threats. When they are dragging 5+ psybacks and 4 psyflemen, backed by purifier spam... That's when our stuff goes down in a blaze of glory.

Yeah... palies not the most competitive choice. Agree with all of this. How many points are you playing?

Psyspam is never going to be an easy-beat BUT!! id take it over mechspam IG or SW anyday. They have more vehicles, more troops, more redundancy, more guns that can hit more targets and, hey, when your AV10 open, it doesn't take psy to ruin your day. Razorback/Psyback, Psyflemen/Riflemen, its all the same to me.

SirTainly wrote:

I too would like to know how to easily beat GK but I don't understand some of your points.

1) At 36" you are out of range, and his 48" autocannon dreadnoughts are still in range? NS are useless here, as he's reduced to 42".

From your other points it seems your GK opponents are nothing like the ones here. We see lots of MSU henchmen in Chimeras/Rhinos and Dreadnought spam (also Death Cultists). I only know of 1 GK player who fields a Dreadknight, LRs and GK marines and he does less well.

The Dark Lance and Dissintergrators have a 36 inch range, I don't think I was clear enough, sorry- What I was trying to say was overwhelm the armour that has say the autocannons while keeping at least 36" from his infantry- from my experience most of the psycannon stuff is only 36" and thats what my opponant usually uses. With regards to what my opponent is like, I can only say what helps me beat GK, Can't talk about something if I haven't tried it. Also, from games with GK, IG, SM, SW, Chaos, Eldar and even Tau I would always make sure my transports and ravagers have nightshields and flickerfields.

Painjunky wrote:

Yeah... palies not the most competitive choice. Agree with all of this. How many points are you playing?

Psyspam is never going to be an easy-beat BUT!! id take it over mechspam IG or SW anyday. They have more vehicles, more troops, more redundancy, more guns that can hit more targets and, hey, when your AV10 open, it doesn't take psy to ruin your day. Razorback/Psyback, Psyflemen/Riflemen, its all the same to me.

Actually I think palies are very competitive, against everyone else. Dealing with 2W 2+ 5++ with fnp and wound allocation shenanigans is messed up. They are just almost unmovable without S8 AP2 weapons... Which the only way to get alot of is meltaguns or Lances, and with meltas you have to be point blank... And if you miss... God help you.

Actually while IG can field more autocannons and the Puppies can get more ML... GKs have fortitude... The biggest FU to Xenos in any book ever. Their tanks ignore 1/3rd of the damage chart, and without an aboundous amount of AP1 (which can only be brought by Imperium forces) your just hoping to roll high.

Oh, and Psy ammo means alot. When riflemens go from needing a 4 to pen to needing a 3, that's a huge percentage jump. And HB backs being so cheap (cheaper than a chimera) hit better, and doing the same damage, and having a better version of extra armor base (that is what fortitude is) There is something seriously wrong there... (sorry, I have alota hate for a codex clearly made to be the best to get bandwagoners to jump onto it to get sales up... Right after ive waiting over a decade for a codex that is "balanced"...) that felt good

We have people in my area that have stopped playing Grey Knights because they are a cheese army. The rules and the fluff is designed to make them the gods of 40k. Really from what I have noticed the only army that I struggle with when its even skill and I don't do stupid stuff is Grey Knights because all it seems is they can point and push a button.

in all fairness, we have all the things we require to defeat any army with ease, its just that we can't prepare for all armies at once, if you really tailored an army to beat Grey Knights, then you would kick the crap out of them, but fielding that army against an auto-cannon spam mass infantry gaurd list would make you want to punch a kitten in the face...
its all relative

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Oh, and Psy ammo means alot. When riflemens go from needing a 4 to pen to needing a 3, that's a huge percentage jump. And HB backs being so cheap (cheaper than a chimera) hit better, and doing the same damage, and having a better version of extra armor base (that is what fortitude is) There is something seriously wrong there... (sorry, I have alota hate for a codex clearly made to be the best to get bandwagoners to jump onto it to get sales up... Right after ive waiting over a decade for a codex that is "balanced"...) that felt good

Haha!! I can feel your hate-rage through my screen! Your not alone. If anyone here ever meets matt ward please punch him in the groin, hard, and if possible film yourself doing it and post it! We will pay well!

Your GK opponents must be better players than mine. I fear quantity over quality. Different playstyles.

Modded - edited reference to male organ. Please avoid such references in the future. Gobsmakked.

I would like to add GK Henchmen/Normal GK in Psycannon Razorbacks. Yes, they get (twin linked) psycannons on those (TL ACannon + PsyAmmo).

I have been noticing all over the place in different forums about how to defeat Grey Knights with almost any race. It really seems that everyone is having problems with Grey Knights no matter your army. I can only come to one thought and that is.....GW messed up bad when they made Grey Knights in making them to easy to play and so hard hitting. I think the reason we don't see more of them in the upper tier of tournments is that most of them are people that are not good players. So the people with better skills and more experience are winning over the cheese army because the player isn't experienced or doesn't have alot of skills.

Against GK I'd love to have Njal with my darkies , hehe 3+ your power is gone, that must be so pleasing. Fortitude, wait what? nope, only a 33% of your powers is passing my defences (granted he must be at 24 inches round i think)

tbh I have more issues with blood angels then I ever do with grey knights. Between deep striking scourge and raider bound wyches I can deal with psydreads, and after that its all about kiting everything else and opening up cans, mind you I have never facing more then 3 rifleman.
Fast moving tanks, with FC and 3+FNP everywhere tends to consistently be a nightmare for me. That and guard, evil evil guard.

I have never had a problem with a specific army, specific players on the other hand yes. My regular opponent and I always have drag out drawn out matches that come down to the wire. We are both pretty tactically minded and have a good grasp of the rules it doesn't matter what army we use we always end up scraping a victory (or having it slip through our fingers).

GK have never been a problem but I think thats down to the fact that the local players (about 4 of them) have the combined tactical ability of a dead woodlouse and you can have the best army ever but if you don't know how to play it your still gonna get stomped.

Cailos wrote:

I have been noticing all over the place in different forums about how to defeat Grey Knights with almost any race. It really seems that everyone is having problems with Grey Knights no matter your army. I can only come to one thought and that is.....GW messed up bad when they made Grey Knights in making them to easy to play and so hard hitting. I think the reason we don't see more of them in the upper tier of tournments is that most of them are people that are not good players. So the people with better skills and more experience are winning over the cheese army because the player isn't experienced or doesn't have alot of skills.

Not quite. Yes, they are good book but luckly most people make "Ooooo... Shiny!" lists that suck royally.
Like 2K foot list that have 6-8 KP (lol, rotfl etc.), I saw one yesterday in my local shop.

I would like to add tri-Mono Necron lists. Ok, Necron are easy to kill BUT we have a little more problems with them than usual.

Tri Monolith is okay as long as you're packing haywire grenades (or, I guess, a lot of Haywire Blasters - but who manages that?).

Indeed. However I just thought it is worth mentioning since only reliabe way to deal with them is to throw gazilions of grenades/same ammount of Darklight/use Voidravens. Even Taloses don't help much if I'm correct (2d6 for pen is negated? Didn't fight evil toasters for long time. If MCs do get 2d6, then actually they are our best bet, especially since they can have TL HBlasters). Sadly, Those and Blessed Land Raiders (Godhammers) are problem for us (i.e. we can silence them pretty easy but disassembling them gun-by-gun may be tiresome.).

MCs get no particular benefit vs. Monoliths/Blessed Hulls - the Talos is actually incapable of hurting it. It can't even glance it until it gets furious charge.

Heat Lances are incapable of hurting Monoliths/Blessed Hulls. (yet another reason Blasters are better )

Dark lances/Blasters are capable of glancing them, so for every 6 *hits* you get you ought to manage one glance - wooosh!

Haywire grenades will - if we presume a Wych squad of 7 assaulting it and the Monolith moved - generate 2.3 glances and .58 penetrating hits. Now that's actually pretty darn good. It's made even better because Necrons don't actually have a lot of stuff that can functionally assault Wyches, and when you assault you want to try to block up their portals to prevent teleport support, and you're looking pretty good, though the flux arcs will cause some pain in return.

vs. Blessed Hulls...well, it can depend, usually I just try to ignore them and go about the business of dismantling the rest of the army. They're not as dangerous to me as Monoliths are though because they have limited targeting options - as long as you're kicking the heck out of the rest of his army these things can be trying to swat you down for a while with limited success.

There is one other option , long range shock prow rams, I have popped AV14 that way , about as reliable as the rest of our AT ?

Thor I PM'd ya

But who really uses shock prows nowadays? I've never really considered them to be too useful when compared to our kajillions of other AT options.

Jack_The_Ripper wrote:

But who really uses shock prows nowadays? I've never really considered them to be too useful when compared to our kajillions of other AT options.

Shock prows aren't anti tank weapons first, first they are a tool for objective games tank shocking units off of objectives, second for tank shocking troops to coral them into a juicy liquifier gun shaped blob, thirdly as a cheeky punt at killing something hard (remember only a model in the path of the the tank shock can death or glory and aim it at an IC/MC) if he death or glories it you have a better chance than most of surviving it and killing him (provided you have flickerfields and really what sort of archon are you if you don't have flickerfields on it?) and finally a very distant fourth as an AT weapon.

Shock prows are a nessecity in the modern tournie enviroment (not on everything but at least on a few key vehicles) and at 5pt a model not that hard to fit in.

Strange dude said it all, Very useful utility tool, as he said if you have the opportunity to deliver a high str hit why not ? I manage str 10 most of the time, and tank shocking things into piles for your likky guns is hilarious,

I often combo with tormentors, getting something off the board in one go is great, could defo do with more raiders now I think about it.

Shock Prows might not be used every game or even every tournament, but that one time when it makes the difference between a loss and a win makes it worth all the other times.
It's the only way to get to an objective surrounded by enemy models, as no others may land within 1".

I won a game at the ETC just by having Shock Prows on a Ravager and I think that win also turned the whole match into a win for our team.

WHOA!!!! I never knew that we couldn't tank shock without a shock prow...My mistake gents.

I can't believe that I've been messing that up this whole time...

Umm no you can't

Tank Shock is a special type of action able to be performed by units which are Vehicle(Tank), as is evident from the fact that it is the first heading under the Vehicle Subtype Tank section of the rule book