Bad Neighborhood - armies that make us cry.

Lightcavalier wrote:

Umm no you can't

Tank Shock is a special type of action able to be performed by units which are Vehicle(Tank), as is evident from the fact that it is the first heading under the Vehicle Subtype Tank section of the rule book

Read Shock Pow before you say something like that.

Sorry I glazed over part of his post. I know we can tank shock with a prow.

Lightcavalier wrote:

Sorry I glazed over part of his post. I know we can tank shock with a prow.

Oh sorry I thought you were saying that even with a Shock Pow we can't tank shock. Had that happen the other day and the guy refused to continuing playing if I could tank shock.

Cailos wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:

Sorry I glazed over part of his post. I know we can tank shock with a prow.

Oh sorry I thought you were saying that even with a Shock Pow we can't tank shock. Had that happen the other day and the guy refused to continuing playing if I could tank shock.

I would chalk that up as a victory by forfeit.

Raneth wrote:

Cailos wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:

Sorry I glazed over part of his post. I know we can tank shock with a prow.

Oh sorry I thought you were saying that even with a Shock Pow we can't tank shock. Had that happen the other day and the guy refused to continuing playing if I could tank shock.

I would chalk that up as a victory by forfeit.

It was the guy that I tank shocked killing a Bloodthister and exploding a Soul Grinder and that killed 5 Plague Bearers. All in a 1000 point game with only one Raider who did two FF saves in a row. So yea it was the most awesome movement I have seen.

Cailos wrote:

It was the guy that I tank shocked killing a Bloodthister and exploding a Soul Grinder and that killed 5 Plague Bearers. All in a 1000 point game with only one Raider who did two FF saves in a row. So yea it was the most awesome movement I have seen.

Dude, that's about half of his army, wow. And I thought that bashing fully upgraded (and FAQed) Belial's Termie unit with 6 Grots and Slaver was good... I mean seriously, what are the odds You'll win WS 2/4 and S2/T4 roll, then enemy fail 2+ FNP save and then that actually happen 11 times (overkill) with 12 attacks (Slaver did nothing, as I suspected) lol?

As someone that's been running Black Templars and Dark Eldar since the old 3rd edition starter game, I'd say that's a pretty hard match up. An army that rerolls all failed misses in CC, plus a nigh unkillable Landraider, and cheap Lascannons to boot. I've messed around with some Templar lists that are almost abusive against DE, mostly through cheap AT and Blessed Raiders with Terminators. Killing a Blessed Raider with DE is absurdly hard, especially with the rest of the army to deal with.

The only thing that can make me cry so far is a chaos space amrine defiler with demonic possession and parasitic possession...immune to shake/stun resuslts and regenerates weapon destroyed results. It just won't die xD

Psyfleman dreads. Psycannons are short ranged so aren't too hard to deal with. S8 autocannons for Grey Knights? That was bad even for Ward.

I know it's chalked up already, but to reinforce why Shock Prows are finding their way into lists more and more is mostly to help the army keep control of the enemy's movements.

Ya see - Dark Eldar don't have good anti-tank, no matter how much people think it is, it's really just a bunch of AP 2 missiles (Save for Heat Lances, but those are pretty much only in our Fast Attack slots and, dare you if you try 'em (I'm still trying to figure 'em out): Talos

So Shock Prows do come up as a form of Anti-Tank. Much better than the Dark Lance in a typical situation where you want to keep the enemy back. This is good all armies save the ones having to rely on Missile Launchers/Autocannons themselves to try and shoot you down, which is a good amount because -

Notice how those two guns give us trouble are also in the army that gives us arguably the most trouble: Imperial Guard. Space Marines/Blood Angels can do it, but no one runs them that way (Min 3x 5 Sternguard with 2 MLs with Las/Plas Razors; 3x 5 Devs - 4 ML, Las/Plas Razors) or of course Space Wolves (with 3x 5 Long Fang Missiles, 3x 5 Wolf Guard - 1 with Termie Armour and a CML; 6x Las/Plas Razors again) -- So that's 12 Targets shooting at us from range. If the guy has Rhinos instead he lessens the targets to 6 so it's manageable, though with the Razors, I donno if I can handle it well. Not purely judging from a stand-up fight, but anyway you try to twist it kinda fight. He has more firepower than you and all you can do is hope your shots count and his don't...more...often...than...not...

Anyways other armies have melta or generic 12-36" range guns that try to take out tanks. Meltas, Missile Pods, Plasma (don't see much of it but hey), Blasters from other DE, Psycannons. You can deal with this by kiting and/or using Night Shields and using Fast Skimmer Flat-Out moves to block the way to midfield. Shock Prows add onto this to keep the enemy out of 24" of you, lest you have a Auto-Hitting Str 10 hit in the bill coming at them. Granted, this might take the Raider's life too. But 1- There is no great victory without great sacrifice; 2 - It's a transport, by definition it should be expendable; 3 - Not many other armies can claim auto-hitting Str 10 hits in their disposal; and finally 4 - With a good armour roll for your front facing from the Prow (and/or Flickerfields if you bothered) will probably save the Raider's ass if you're lucky

Anyways that's my 0.02 on it, Shock Prows of course also allow Tank Shock which is impeccably useful for dividing big units in half, like you can separate a Nob from a fight if you do it *just* right against a mob of Boyz. Then hop out, beat on the sucky Boyz and win the fight easily with a heavy penalty. Also good for any templates you might have, getting units into charge range, and hell, shoving a unit out of cover so anything without Nades doesn't have to worry about dropping to Initiative 1. Couple with a Torment Grenade Launcher as well and some "super units" like Nobs not at full 10 Str or no Warboss around, Paladins without Draigo, Hammernators, Seer Councils, might just run from the Morale Check caused by it. You'd be surprised!

Dodo_Night wrote:

The only thing that can make me cry so far is a chaos space amrine defiler with demonic possession and parasitic possession...immune to shake/stun resuslts and regenerates weapon destroyed results. It just won't die xD

Regenerates destroyed weapons? There is no such thing, I play CSM. Ask your enemy next time to show where that rule is written.

Saintspirit wrote:

Dodo_Night wrote:

The only thing that can make me cry so far is a chaos space amrine defiler with demonic possession and parasitic possession...immune to shake/stun resuslts and regenerates weapon destroyed results. It just won't die xD

Regenerates destroyed weapons? There is no such thing, I play CSM. Ask your enemy next time to show where that rule is written.

In his codex in crayon would be my guess! Or maybe it's a FW/IA thing.

Could be an old dex as well?!?

No defiler in old dex

It has to be a FW rule or something. But I do remember seeing that rule somewhere before.

PP was part of the 3rd edition (2nd Dex) for Chaos, and was generally considered the third part of the unholy trinity for invincible Chaos vehicles (primary being possessed, secondary was mutated hull (+1 AV) and then PP).

Generally speaking though it was thought of as too expensive for what it did - and that was probably an accurate call.

Defilers are horrible enough without adding on old edition rules - that scared me when I saw that! Possessed vehicles are horrible, a friend of mine currently fields a Defiler and a possessed Predator with twin-linked lascannon - the lower BS makes no difference to the ability of its main gun to wreck stuff, and it just WILL NOT STOP FIRING! Infuriating! I thought I had Chaos fights in the bag until he got those and Obliterators...

Craftworld elder can out enuf str6 to 8 shooting to wreck my day..
But realy nothing but ig is a hard matchup ...
Grey knights... Die like expensive marines to mass firepower and even if he runs a couple tlac dreads they normally get popped by my 20+ lances in turn one anyway..
I've played about 20 games against our best gk player and sofar am undefeated. I love my wyches w/fc against him./. Toss a few nets in and they are the hard counter to stopping their scary footsloggers...

Ig... Just scary how many auto cannons n pie plates and las cannons ect they can get ina list...

Razorspam blood angels, not enough dark lances!! Nooooooooooo…

Really? I don't recall having much difficulty against Razorspam BA, but then again the guy I was playing against is still figuring out his codex. With any luck, he'll be a challenge once I'm finished training him...

See? Mecharmies give us trouble...I believe there was a thread awhile back and me attempting to explain this is true but several folks think it's not...Basically, 1 missile a vehicle, maybe 2, isn't enough, lol And I know not everyone is changing their Venoms back into Raiders (Because shooting infantrys is amazing! What about the rest of our army against infantrys? Amazing! Who'd a thunk it!)

Sorry for bitter sarcasm. What did you do to fight vs. Bloodrazors? Just out of curiosity. I don't have too much trouble until there's also 3x Rifle Dreads and a few Predators as well to worry about. Oh and the FNP too, that's a pain. (The Priest isn't easy to kill due to hiding in said vehicles and units, and when said unit gets whittled down, he just hops into another vehicle/unit...)

That's my question, what do you need Venom splinter cannons for when you can get similar effects with Warriors+Raider while still retaining that crucial dark lance?

Because the simple debate is - what's a better range to deal with?

18" for anti-infantry and 48" for anti-mech
or
48" for anti-infantry and 24" for anti-mech

Also, there is arguably a better inherent 'value' in the Venom build versus the Raider build if you want them to be capable of inflicting equivalent damage.

I'll take the longer range anti-mech so I'm not getting pounded with Lascannons and missiles the whole time I'm coming across the table.

Of late missiles seem to often come on Long Fangs, also Lootas. 3x of either of those tends to obligate the smart DE player to have a response that can handle killing an infantry squad in cover (preferably 2, maybe 3) in one turn. Raiderspam suffers for that. Venomspam suffers versus Razorspam. Hence why I think the smart bet is a mix of the two - though that's just my method and reasoning.