Bad Neighborhood - armies that make us cry.

Yeah, I can see that. It's why I'm reluctant not to take a Razorwing sometimes.

Arrex wrote:

I'll take the longer range anti-mech so I'm not getting pounded with Lascannons and missiles the whole time I'm coming across the table.

also considering missles and lascannons outrange a dark lance, so if you can take a shot at them, then most likely they are shooting you back...

I prefer venoms, as like thor said you see alot of longfangs and lootas on the ground, about 5~7 venoms is enough to move even a maxed out slots of those types. (although I prefer more as you have more to fall back on)

As for Razorspam. Most BA are toating las/plas backs. You take out their predators, and they are left with a 1 shot at a greater than 30", which with the to hit roll, the to pen roll, and flickerfields, lowers the chance of a confirmed kill alot (sure, we blow up... its a raider/venom... what do you expect) I actually do not have any problem with Razorspam... Its actually a boring list to fight against ( I think DoA can do better than it actually with a good general, its just razorspam is easier to use)

"As for Razorspam. Most BA are toating las/plas backs. You take out their predators, and they are left with a 1 shot at a greater than 30"" This is the same that happens to us once we lose our Ravagers with their Shield of Sanguinius up and they have AV 11 non-open topped...So I don't think it's technically that easy.

True about DoA... it works unless You DS combat squads like complete moron (like I did first time using it).

In addition to Razor Angels - if they happen to have Vindicators (which are nearly as good as ones from BT, I love those things) they may be VERY annoying. Ever saw four Trukks damaged or even wrecked by single "missed" shot? I did.

Those Vindis are nasty... a 36" S10 AP1 large blast is nothing to scoff at. As for DE though I prefer them, one weapon destory and its over for it other than contesting, Compared to a Auto/Las Pred which takes so much fire its not even funny. Actually come to think of it Im glad Matt Ward didnt give GKs Preds... because if he did I think I would quit trying to play this game competitively

@ Smurfy... Im beating a dead horse with this... so this is the last time Ill focus on this. Stunlock is key. Statistically it takes 3 S8 shots on AV12 to get one result on the damage chart, wheither it be a glance or a pen. On said chart 1,2,3,5,6 hurts long range AT tanks, while everything hurts a transport (yes, even a 1, which stops that transport from being a pillbox.) On average at 2k most BA razorspam lists have 1 lib (maybe two, but if they do its less backs) 1 priest (again, if more less backs) 5~7 las/plasbacks, and 3 Vindis or 3 Auto/Las pred. We on the other hand have 20+ Darkmatter weapons. They have 3 AV 13 hulls (which turn into AV 12 with the lance rule) and 5~7 AV 11 hulls.

Under SoS, it takes 5 DL to get 1 results on the AV 13 armor (5*.667*.5*.667=1.112) and 4 against AV 11 hulls (4*.667*.667*.667= 1.186) in T1 we have 9~18 lances in range, so target the Preds, that gives us a total of 2~4 damage results T1. T2 you bring all those blasters to bare (even though you probably lost sereval to return fire) and now you have even less to worry about.

BA Razorspam is one of the weaker Competitive lists out there imho. It relies too much on flimsy ICs and doesnt have the cheapness of say... lootas for longfangs backing it up. To get such shooting is dropping the greatness of some of BAs assault units, while SW or Orks dont have to compensate in assault just to get such great shooting (TW and Nob Bikers respectively)

Demolishers are AP 2 and bare should be *bear*, so ya know about over-exaggerating.

As far as beating a dead horse I will continue to point out everything you're saying the BA can do simply easier, the only thing we have on them is ranged anti-infantry. Everything else is even or better for them in a direct fight.

- One is assuming the stun-lock will pull through, it's one we gotta work with and I am with you on this. If you can Stun/Shake the Razorback you're pretty solid. However you are measuring 5 vs 1 AV. The Preds are obvious target priority? They wouldn't be in my eyes as the Razorbacks are probably plugging up the field 6" and not sitting back hoping for a ranged battle which they lose in.

Or planning for the long term and going 12" and popping smoke on the lead vehicles in trains - An example:

This deployment picture, though not entirely mech BA, shows why the Predators aren't target priority in this matchup (Exact list found in his Battle Report -http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2011/10/battle-for-salvation-day-2-bat-reps.html)If it isn't obvious it's because they have 3+ Cover. (In the case of a fully mech list I'm guessing more likely they'd be in the Corners and 1 near the center or all 3 flank denying...Either way 4+ Cover compared to the No-Cover a few Razors should get not to mention lower AV to get through.)

Planning long term here helps the BA player, if all his stuff is going 12" into the middle of the table, just slight budges of 6" later will allow him to plug away with both the Lascannon and TL Plasmas, while maybe putting all 3 threats out at once with deploying Assault Squads with Meltaguns. See, he's not too scared to get out because your Venom firepower is mostly shrugged off by his Priest bubble and you are probably still too busy shooting Lances and Blasters at trying to get rid of 8-10 AV are you not?

In this fight of Mech BA, I find myself cock-blocking and starting to build a slow flank against the BA as they try to swoop in. We still have the mobility advantage with Haywire Wychs being able to threaten multiple Razorbacks if they try to slow down to fire both guns, we can probably reliably maim a few infantry squads a turn if we're lucky even with FNP up, and with some Night Shields you can get the battle in your favor by having that Plasmagun be even more hard pressed to have significant input.

I have nearly as much "Darkmatter" as you claim, I'm just saying it's not all it's chalked up to be and a better solution for multiple vehicles is what I think most people need to find. Hence why I'm trying Harlequins/Hellions/Incubi/Grotesques anything that has or is close to a equivalent squad laden with Str 5/6 when charging (Marines show why this is good as even if you kill a good portion of their ranged anti-tank, a unit can stretch out and charge multiple vehicles and get some damage results pretty reliably with their Krak Grenades)

:3

I'm going to be honest any thing with 3-5 shot weapons DE do not like.

I could face a army with tons of 1 shot lascannons but asoon as you bring heavy bolters, assault cannons scatterlasers etc things start to get messy for DE

I actually like fielding lascannons against DE when playing Templar. It's almost a guaranteed pen.

Farmer wrote:

I'm going to be honest any thing with 3-5 shot weapons DE do not like.

I could face a army with tons of 1 shot lascannons but asoon as you bring heavy bolters, assault cannons scatterlasers etc things start to get messy for DE

Exactly. A friend of mine plays Eldar and has a Firestorm from Forge World, which he actually bought to neutralise my Razorwing before he found out there aren't proper rules for flyers. In truth, it's still the scariest thing in his army. He stands Eldrad next to it and gets six strength 6 60" shots, re-rolling misses. It causes instant death on most stuff in my army, with no save, and is almost guaranteed to bring down a vehicle a turn if the cover is lacking, or decimate a foot unit. Lascannons are not as scary after they've popped the transport because they can only kill a maximum of one troop a turn from the unit that was embarked. Scatter lasers and heavy bolters destroy the transport then lay waste to the unit.

One of my toughest match-ups is S6 Spamming Mech Eldar. They have the weapons to take us down fast and the speed to neutralize our mobility. Makes it difficult to find an advantage and exploit it.

Guard, too many assualt cannons, auto cannons templates etc

Chaos daemons - every flamer of tzeentch has a template wep that always wounds on 4+ and ignores all cover and armour saves....nasty

Grey Knights: those annoying dreadknights

Eldar: Lance weps dont have bonuses cos all eldar are Front Armour 12

Guard don't have assault cannons. You're probably thinking of multi-lasers (like scatter lasers, but with one fewer shot. Then again, with the number of cheap vehicles that come with them as standard...).

thelordhellion wrote:

Guard, too many assualt cannons, auto cannons templates etc

Chaos daemons - every flamer of tzeentch has a template wep that always wounds on 4+ and ignores all cover and armour saves....nasty

Grey Knights: those annoying dreadknights

Eldar: Lance weps dont have bonuses cos all eldar are Front Armour 12

Dreadknights???? Thats what splinter weapons are for! I think my favourite moment was watching a squad of 10 Wyches fire their splinter pistols at 1 dreadknight and watching that lump of points drop like a stone!
Flamers of Tzeentch are very annoying though

whoops whoops some mistakes sorry for being noob

Guard - yes I meant scatter lasers dont know what i was thinking
GK - i meat the psydreadnoughts that ignore shaken and stunned....a nooby friend told be it is the dreadknight