The Dilema of the restricted Dark Eldar

TL;DR With no eldar allies, and only using 2 detachments top, how to build a DE army, counting the draft FAQs, and trying to pack some melee? Also, an skeleton of an army in the end(it is outdated, that's the reason of the thread).


So in the end, I had to make this thread.

I have been visiting this forum since 6th, specially for the Black Buzzard battlereport, and later for full Dark Eldar insights, and I really like what I have been reading so far, but all these analysis have started to become useless because of my "local" meta.

You see, I have never been that competitive, and prefered fluff-heavy armies, or at least playing with units that I enjoyed, but my friends disagree, as they build tournament-like armies. And lately, tournaments on my zone had started using a special set of rules, called WAP0. As they are in spanish, I'll explain them quickly here, so you understand what I'm facing:
-Each army is classified on a tier. That tier gives the army a number of P0WA points that they can expend on their army. Dark Eldars are Tier 3, so I have 3 P0WAs for my army.
-Each list can include a maximun of 2 detachments: a main one, that can be either CAD or your army's one (ie RSR), and a second one, that could be an allied detachment, a formation, or a second CAD if your main was a CAD. Deploying a second detachment cost 1 P0WA.
-All alliances go down one step on the ally matrix, meaning that there are no battle-brothers. The exception are Harlequins with Dark Eldar, and some imperial stuff, mainly SoB and Inquisitors and Assassins.
-If you ally with another army, your number of available P0WAs would be those of your "better" faction. That is, if I were to ally with Eldars (Tier 1), I would only have 1 P0WA, and as using another detachment cost 1 P0WA, I would be out of them.
-Strenght D have -1 on the table (I guess on their "destroy vehicle" table).
-Psychik disciplines from the codex "Angels of Death" cannot be used.
-No SuperHeavy nor forgeworld allowed.

The last important thing is that each army have a list of "P0WA costs" for each unit. A single value means "cost of P0WA per unit", a serie of values divide by slashes (0/0/1/X) means 0 P0WAs 1 and 2 units, and 1 P0WA 3 units, and the X means that you could not include a fourth one.  Although the rules are in spanish, unit names are in english, so you could see it in the rules, but I'll copy them here for what interest us, the Dark Eldar.

Quote :

Court of the Archon: 1 P0WA if you army doesn't include an archon.
WWP 0/1/2/3/X
Trueborns 0/0/1/2/3/X
Grotesques 0/1/2/3/X P0WA, count only units from the Covens codex.
Venoms 0/0/1/2/3/X
Reavers 0/0/1/2/3/X
Ravagers 0/1/1/2/3/X count only those with 3 Dessintegrators.
Talos 0/1/2/2/3/X (count models, not units)
Cronos 1 P0WA if your army have more than 1 Talos.
Flyers: 1 P0WA for each model beyond the second one.

And Harlequins:

Quote :

Shadowseer 0/0/0/1/2/3
Masque of Secrets 1 P0WA

Aaaaaand maybe fortifications(only the ones from the rulebook are legal):

Quote :

aegis  1 P0WA
Bastión Imperial  1 P0WA
Skyshield 2 P0WA
Redemption 3 P0WA

So this leaves me in a, partly good, partly bad situation. Good because all armies have restriction, specially Eldars and SM, and bad because, well, I cannot rely on Eldars, or multiple formations from Covens, or Harlequins, or whatnot, which seems to stop most advices from this forum. I cannot use 2 CADs and a grotesquerie and a Scalpel Scuadron at the same time, nor I could ever play a CorpseThief Claw (5 Talos + Formation = 4 P0WA). So I have a lot of questions for when it comes to building an army, that couldn't be answered by any post in the forum. Before I start, I want to point out two things that are quite important: First, the tournaments are played between 1500 and 1850p, the last one being 1650; second, I own most miniatures, except grotesques (though I still want to take them into account to see if I should get them), the court (though I could create Lhamaeans) and the beastmasters. Besides that, I only own 2 venoms, though, again, I could get more if needed.

Without futher ado, I'll start:

1st) The first dilema is CAD versus RSR. CAD seems appropiated because I could pack 2 of them, meaning that I have OS and 6 FA slots. But, at the same time, that means no formation, like grotesquerie, so RSR add the possibility of having a formation(or allies), at the expenses of OS.

2nd) I like melee, and after the last FAQ, I feel we need to go on melee. Reading fisheyes analysis of melee units, I can see that both Lhamaeans, Incubi and Grots are on a similar level, Lhamaeans killing about the same as Incubi against MEQs and TEQs (though the difference is important), while beign really better against GEQs and monsters, and Incubi doubling what Grots do agains MEQs and TEQs, and the same against GEQs and monsters, the only difference being their resilence, with Incubi defending themselves with high armor (which means that they are weak against fate), while Lhamaeans have number of miniatures and cost (which is limited by transports) and Grots wounds and toughness.

Now, the problem here is partially related with the first dilema. Grots seems a good unit, better than Incubi because of resilence, but they demand a formation to be competitive, which would mean losing OS for including them, which would makes us reconsider if their higher resilence is that interesting. Lhamaean, on the other hand, would not only allows us to use 2 CADs, but not cost P0WA if we end up having at least 1 archon in the ARMY, which means 1 Archon on main CAD, and only Lhamaeans on 2nd CAD, but, at the same time, they are not resilient AT ALL. They are just wyches with no ward save on melee. They can actually kill, yes, but really, they are T3 5+ units. Their raider blow up and you'll be losing 3 or 4, they lack grenades, and they die as well against overwatch. I feel I would have to use 3 units of them to be able to try to do something on melee.

3rd) Even though it is not a question forced itself by the WAP0 system, I think it complements the 2nd point. Are Characters a good way to try and add punch on melee? Are they efficient enough? I can see that Succubus are better than Archons on melee, and that they seems quite decent, but I don't know if they are good enough to justify going melee with certain units. I ask specially because if they were, they could justify certain melee units, specially wracks, as wracks doesn't kill that much (or at all), but are cheap and resilient (sort of, I mean, T4 and FNP, at least they will survive their raider blowing up). At the same time, is kitting an Archon (in this situation) for melee worth it? If I'm forced to use one, either because of a formation or to include Lhamaean, would it be wise to give her some wargear and a unit, or would it be better to leave her naked and hidden?

4th) On the antitank department, I'm a bit lost. I will be packing probably 3 units of 6 reavers with CC, that's for sure. First, because I want to go melee, and they add 3 "melee" units that will add some sort of menace and MSU to the army, so the enemy will feel a bit overwhelmed when Incubi/Lhamaean/Grots came out of their raiders, and also, because they are awesome. They are part of my "antitank" part of the army, but you know, they are melee, so, even when they are good blowing up stuff, they cannot by my sole source of antitank. Before I have packed 1 Ravager with DL (or Dessie when I felt the meta had not that many tanks), and 2 Jetfighters and 1 Scourge unit, but as I'm reading on the forum, there is not much love for Jetfighters.

I could drop the jetfighters and get a second scourge unit, and a second Ravager. I can see the second ravager, but the second scourge feel a bit off, as they are way, way more fragile than the jetfighters. The thing is, I'm not afraid of landraiders, or predators, or that kind of heavy tanks, as I feel 1/2 ravagers, 1 scourge and the reavers can deal with them. I'm afraid of transports, as they are there besides the "heavy tanks", and cannot be killed by my poisoned weapons, and I feel they are more popular now that before. Are those reavers, 2 ravagers and 1/2 scourges enough? Can I count on the Raiders to be able to kill anything with dark lances? As how the jink worked, I have been kitting them with Dessintregators.

5th) And this is connected with the 4th. I have no allies (no eldars allies at least), so how the heck do I deal with flyers? It is not that I fear facing hundreds of them, is that I feel that 1 Flyer can wreck me if I don't pack jetfighters, and if I drop them for better AT, I feel I'll be in trouble. I could use a fortification, like the aegis one. I haven't used one in years, so I don't know what to make of them.

6th) This dilema is more... global. What the heck do I do with my troops? If I pack 2 CADs, I will have to deploy 4 troops. 4. And with how jink works now, I can't see those kabalite with splinter racks anymore, but again, I haven't played yet with the new rules, so maybe they work. I don't know if using them to just buy raiders/venoms, and then letting them sit on an objetive is a good idea, but again, they only cost 40 points, and would be giving me OS raiders/venoms. So, how are they best kitted? Are 8 kabalites on raider still viable?

7th) And lastly, harlequins. I don't have enough harlequins to go with them as main army, but I could use some formation. I have the three characters, and a unit of 6 harlequins. I could get a starweaver too, if necesary. I like them, and I feel they are powerful, but I also think they require an army built around using them to work. But maybe I have been thinking too much about the freakshow, so don't mind me.



I will start playing in 2 weeks, as I'm going on vacation next week, but then I'll be able to play almost everyday, so multiple, baseless theories are welcome, as I will able to test them (even do some proxies).

And finally, I will post the skeleton of the last army that I played, before the whole Decurion, FAQ and WAPO situation (about 2 years ago):

RSR Deatchment:
HQ
-1 Melee Succubus

Troops
-1x Warriors on Venom (NS)
-1/2x Warriors on Raider with Splinter Rack and Dessie (NS)

FA
-3x 6 Reavers with 2 CC
-2x Razorwing Jetfighter with Dark Lances (Sometimes NS)
-1x Scourges with 4 HWB

HS
-1x Ravager with 3xDL/3xDC

And a formation, usually Scarlet Epicurian or Covenite Fleshcorps.

The melee part usually worked, kind of, mainly because of the Succubus inside, or because of the reavers supported by the wracks. I would like to point out that it was not on tournaments, but it was againts competitive players, so the encounters were both hard, but with a bit of fooling around, trying units and what not. I have the feeling that this list won't work on a really competitive tournament, mainly because of the wrack part, but the cheese have been toned down thanks to the WAP0 (for instance, the rules forbid you to have more than 1 grav weapon per unit).

If you read it all, or at least most of it, thank you. Any feedback, any, would be apreciated.

1/2: I'd go CAD and Formation (probably Grotesquerie).

3: Characters aren't that great for us. I recommend a succubus, personally (she can ride with the grots with a WWP for use if it would be efficient to do so). Depending on how points shake out, in addition to your grotesquerie you might be able to use an Elites slot for some Incubi or another Grot squad.

4: Max out FA slots, definitely. And go with either Reavers or Scourges. You can also pack some blasterborn or Ravagers if you like.

5: F--k allies in a system like this. Seriously, it's a trap. Avoid it.

6: One CAD is my opinion, and pack 3+ troop choices. I'd go five man warrior teams (with a blaster) in either venoms or lance raiders. Move the vehicles up first turn and disembark the troops immediately. This not only avoids the Jink dilemma, but maximizes the MSU build you're going to need to rock.

7: No. The three-character formation was decent when we could give them Venoms. Now it's mediocre. I'd avoid allies entirely.

I hate when people answer a post without answering the questions, so now that I've done that, my honest opinion (and first reaction) was this: don't play. This is a horrible comp system. If it were being run at my local store, I'd refuse to play in it. I wouldn't be a jerk, but I'd politely tell the person running it that this is too far for me. It's a system that essentially forces people to play the game the way the TO wants it to be played. It's just excessive control for the joy of watching people jump through hoops.

Thanks for the response.

And yeah, first questions, then rant:

3: So I get that you'll reduce the character-expenses to the minimun, right? As a grotesquerie use 2 units of grots, the mandatory haem and the succubus are enough, so that's great. Would you attach any character to any extra grot unit I pack, or are they unnecesary? I ask because they'll be using DE PFP, no Coven PFP.

4, and 1/2: But maxing out FA only means 3 units on CAD. Packing Grots, would you priorize Reavers or Scourges? I could see 1 reaver, 2 Scourges, though it feels weird only having 1 reaver unit. 2 Ravagers keeps getting more interesting. Would you pack then with DS or DL?

6: And I actually like this idea. 5 warriors with blaster is cheap, they will be OS, the Raiders/Venom will also be OS, and they will be both annoying, more units, capturing, and "zoning" a bit with the blaster. I'll try packing DL on the Raiders again. Also, I have just found that the new FAQs aren't being used yet, so I'll mix both old Warriors+Rack, and the warriors+blaster disembarking ideas.

And I partially agree with your last statement. I love playing whatever I want, as I mostly play for fun, or for the looks of the model. But, at the same time... I feel it makes the meta safer. I played against Necrons with their new Decurion thing, I played against full flyer armies, against nasty alliances. I dropped the game when my friends started packing full SM companies with free rhinos and whatnot. All those gravs, all those tanks, everything was becoming horrible, and was one of the reasons why I dropped playing 40k entirely.

This, while being really, really restrictive, actually allows me to play mostly what I usually play, the only thing hurting me is the limit of formations, as I love playing formations, and at the same time is stopping armies from going all cheese. And I can assure you, on Spain you can expect people going ALL IN with the cheese. Like, I have seen people playing really awful, net decked, totally unfluffy, no-fun spammy list, and those are not the exception. And is that meta the one that has always drive my friends to play "competitive" armies, that end up being not fun to play against, or a total suffering to listen at when they are trying to build it. It's what made me go "Oh I'll start collecting Dark Eldar because these new Incubi and Mandrakes look cool" to "I have 20 reavers, lots of transports and warriors and flyers and I haven't bought another box of incubi in my life" up till recently when I said frak it and started buying pretty minis to put on my shelves.

Some interesting implications from those restrictions. Mostly they seem reasonable to work around, except for the Venom limitation. In most 1850 lists with the FAQ in place I would want to have 6 Kabalite Warrior squads in Venoms, and if I'm reading the restrictions correctly, 6 is not allowed, and 5 would take 3 P0WA, which means restricting to a single detachment. That makes things more difficult unless I have that wrong, but not absolutely impossible.

For your specific questions:
1) It is extraordinarily rare that you would want Realspace Raiders over a CAD. I think Jimsolo's advice is spot on, CAD + Formation, probably a Grotesquerie would be perfect.

2) I also like melee, as much as the current edition is a little unfriendly to it, and I think the restrictions on you here suit picking melee. Venom spam is essentially being banned, and melee is the other thing DE can do reasonably well.

In terms of melee units, Grotesques are similarly points efficient to the other options, but are massively more resilient. The only other option I would consider seriously is a Court with say a 6:4 split of Sslyth to Lhamaeans. For the points level you are playing, I would suggest Grotesquerie and a Sslyth/Lhamaean Court (with Archon due to the P0WA tax) would give you a really solid melee core.

3) DE Characters cannot be made as points efficient as assault units. However, they are a lot of power in a single model, and give some extra benefits around warlord traits and challenges. Normally, I would suggest a Lhamaean in a Venom as an HQ, but that will hurt you too much with a cost of 2 P0WA if you have no Archon and Troop Venoms.

4) DE Anti-tank (shooting) options are Dark Lance Ravagers, Scourges, or Trueborn. My experience would rank them in that order. You can get some decent tank busting from your melee units as well. Reavers aren't a reliable anti-tank unit, but their versatility makes them a solid choice. My recommendation here is 3 Dark Lance Ravagers. Keep the Fast Attack slots for Reavers, so add Trueborn if you need more anti-tank.

5) The P0WA system will make flyers a bit less popular I suspect. Dark Eldar don't have a lot of options for dealing with them, other than fielding our own, and I don't see that as worthwhile with the list restrictions. Personally, I don't seem to run into them that often.

6) With the FAQ ruling on Jink, Kabalites in Venoms is the best Troop option we have, which the P0WA system is messing up! The next best option would be a squad of 10 Warriors in a Raider if it can sit in cover (possibly with Splinter Cannon and Splinter Racks). Is there usually enough cover in your games to park 3 Ravagers and a Raider or two of Kabalite Warriors? Personally, I like to stay in the transports until they blow up, as they are very fragile without the protective shell.

7) I don't know enough about Harlequins to really comment. They would have to be good enough to abandon the Covens formation though.

The list I would contemplate looks like this:

COMBINED ARMS DETACHMENT
Archon with Agoniser / Shadowfield (125)
Court: 6 Sslyth 4 Lhamaeans in Raider with Night Shields (260)
5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with Splinter Cannon (105)
5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with Splinter Cannon (105)
5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with Splinter Cannon (105 -1 P0WA)
5 Kabalite Warriors in Venom with Splinter Cannon (105 -1 P0WA)
3 Reavers with Cluster Caltrops (63)
3 Reavers with Cluster Caltrops (63)
Ravager with 3 Dark Lances, Night shields (140)
Ravager with 3 Dark Lances, Night shields (140)
Ravager with 3 Dark Lances, Night shields (140)

GROTESQUERIE
Haemonculus with Stinger Pistol (75)
3 Grotesques including Aberration with Agoniser in Raider with Night Shields (210)
3 Grotesques including Aberration with Agoniser in Raider with Night Shields (210 -1 P0WA)

Total 1846

- Our characters are tripe.  I take a Scissorhand on my Haemy and a Glaive on a Succubus, but other than that upgrades to our characters aren't worth it.  (Maybe a Stinger pistol if you have the points to burn, but only if you don't have something better for them.) ((Also the Armor of Misery if I'm running a Freakshow list, but this comp system makes Freakshows virtually impossible.))

- If I was bringing both, I'd bring a Lance Scourge wing, a Haywire Scourge wing, and a 6 man unit of Reavers, but that's just me.  I think the differences between them are negligible enough that it can vary based on the availability of your collection, or your own personal preferences.  If you're going Ravagers, I say Dark Lance is the only way to go.

-If the FAQ drafts aren't in effect, you don't even need to get out of the vehicles if you don't want.  (Although some tacticians recommend it anyway.)

EDIT: Here's a list I threw together.  (Or at least the core of one.)

Grotesquerie
4 Grotesques (Aberration w/Scissorhand, Raider w/Lance) 220
4 Grotesques (Aberration w/Scissorhand, Raider w/Lance) 220 (POWA)
Haemonculus (Scissorhand)

Dark Eldar CAD
Succubus (Glaive) 100

5 Warriors (Blaster, Venom with extra SC) 120
5 Warriors (Blaster, Venom with extra SC) 120
5 Warriors (Blaster, Venom with extra SC) 120 (POWA)
5 Warriors (Blaster, Raider with Dark Lance) 115

3 Reavers (Caltrops) 63
3 Reavers (Caltrops) 63
5 Scourges (Heat Lance) 120

Ravager (3 Dark Lances, Night Shields) 140
Ravager (3 Dark Lances, Night Shields) 140

That comes up to 1616 points, giving you some wiggle room for upgrades of choice.

I agree with Jim. This format is not the best and usually when something like this comes along, it actually hurts those weaker books rather than the stronger ones like it is supposed to.

As far as the list goes, I think the Grotesquerie is the go to formation because it will satisfy your need for melee units and only cost you 1 of your 3 points.  I would do something like this:

DE CAD
Succubus, Haywire, Glaive- 100
x5 Trueborn, x4 Blasters, Raider- 170
x5 Mandrakes- 60
x5 Warriors, Venom- 105
x5 Warriors, Venom- 105
x5 Warriors, Venom- 105 (PoWA)
x5 Warriors, Raider- 95
x5 Scourge, x4 Heat Lances- 120
Razorwing Jetfighter, Lances, Cannon- 150
Razorwing Jetfighter, Lances, Cannon- 150
Ravager, x3 Lances- 125
Ravager, x3 Lances- 125(PoWA)

Grotesquerie
Haemonculus, Scissorhands- 80
x3 Grots, Aberration w/ Scissorhands, Raider- 180
x3 Grots, Aberration w/ Scissorhands, Raider- 180 (PoWA)

So i think this list packs some melee with the Grots, has enough AT punch with the Ravagers, Scourge and Trueborn to be a good deterrent to most lists, has some Anti-Flier with your own, and handles hordes just fine.  The Mandrakes help with Scouting bikers and infiltrators.

This is a very well rounded army that does not necessarily excel at any one facet of the game but has options to deal with any threat that you may encounter.  If you want more melee or AT or want more of something you do not have, the list can swap I think very easily.  I would not mind altering it shall you feel the need to make a unit or two work.

*Edited to make it work for the PoWA points.

Ah, these lists don't work. The second formation has a buy-in of one POWA.

Well the last one does work. Even though the Grotesquerie cost an extra P0WA because of the second grot unit, the Ravagers do NOT cost P0WA because only Ravagers equiped with 3 dessintregator cannons do count toward the P0WA list, so the list would have 3 P0WA: 1 for the venon, 1 for the formation, and 1 for the second Grot unit.

I seems to start getting the idea. I was a bit afraid of not packing enough anti-tank, but beside the classic Scourge/Ravagers/Raiders, I'm starting to dig the 5 warrior with blaster unit, both with and without the new FAQ.

Also, I'm intrigued by the Mandrakes, as I haven't had any problem with infiltration before, but probably I'll start getting some now that I'll be facing more armies. Thank you.

About the P0WA system, my friends were pretty satisfied on the last tournament they played. It has been developed by both TOs and the blog Blindaje Posterior 0, which is a pretty famous spanish blog about 40k. In fact, the thread about Mandrake strategies is a translation from a post the author did on that blog. So it "seems" to have some kind of... collective work on it, kind of like The 9th Age, but on a smaller scale. Still, as it is not a "local" thing, but a national one, I could see it not getting too out of control. I usually despise TO "houserules" because, as you said, they tend to force you to play that the TOs think everyone should play, but these rules seems helping with diversity, so that's that.

Ah, good call.

Frederick Vael wrote:

I seems to start getting the idea. I was a bit afraid of not packing enough anti-tank, but beside the classic Scourge/Ravagers/Raiders, I'm starting to dig the 5 warrior with blaster unit, both with and without the new FAQ.

A single Blaster wont give you much extra anti-tank punch, and means the rest of the units shooting would be wasted. I would much rather save the points from the Blasters to go elsewhere in the list.

3 Blasters almost gives you enough for another 3 Reavers for example.

It is not as a true anti-tank option, but as a possibility. My real fear are not high-priority tanks, as I can kill those with scourges/ravagers or just focusing them. My fear are transports, drop-pods and small tanks that I cannot focus easily enough.

The Drop Pod situation is quite relevant, because a well placed drop pod with objetive secure can screw me, and I cannot be focusing my scourges and ravagers at them when I have predators/Dreads to blow up. Having 3 of my small, OS warrior units with blasters means that I could deal with one or two Drop-Pods on the game. They are not killing me, and I won't be killing much with my 5 warriors on foot, so that's a bit of an edge for me.

That's the feeling I got from the 5-man with blaster thing, but anyway, I'll be trying most of it. In fact, as I only have 1 FA left if I go with the 2 scourge route, I'll also try a 9 reaver unit to see if it's worth it, so I'll try switching in and out those blasters. After all, 45p could be both 3 reavers, 4 mandrakes, almost another venom or even another 5 warriors.

Im familiar with this system as I helped design and playtest the first version of it. Its from Blindaje Posterior Cero, the blog in wich I used to write.

IMO this is the best you can do with Dark Eldar in this meta.

Dark Eldar Realspace Raiders detachment

HQ
Archon, WWP
-Venom, x2 Splinter Cannons
Court of the archon. x2 Medusae
-Venom, x2 Splinter Cannons

No slot (Retainers)
Court of the archon. x1 Llhamaean
-Venom, x2 Splinter Cannons

Troops
x5 Kabalite Warriors
-Venom, x2 Splinter Cannons
x5 Kabalite Warriors
-Venom, x2 Splinter Cannons

AR
Razorwing jetfighter, x2 Dissies, twinlinked splinter rifle, x4 monoscytes
x6 Reavers, x2 Cluster Caltrops.
x6 Reavers, x2 Cluster Caltrops.
x5 Scourges, x4 haywire blasters
x5 Scourges, x4 haywire blasters
x5 Scourges, x4 haywire blasters

HS
Ravager, x3 Dissies
Ravager, x2 Dissies, x1 Dark Lance
Ravager, x2 Dissies, x1 Dark Lance

All 3 powas are spent in venoms.

I have a whole article detailing why every choice was taken over others but Im afraid its very very long, but I will translate it if anyone other than Frederick has interest in it, if not It will published in Engalie 40k in spanish this Thursday.

Hope I helped.