Wych Cult. What do they need.

I know nothing would come of it but I am curious to know what people believe Wych cult units would need to be viable options.

Succubus: should they have more options, possibly have access to reaver jet bikes or Hellion sky boards so they can be used in those units? More weapon options?

Wyches: What do these lovely ladies need. My favorite unit in all 40k. It seems as if we rely too heavily on characters with Agonized to be effective. Should the entire unit get wych weapons? Poison attacks like the splinter weapons? (I feel this would take away from their gladiator/arena feel as they prefer skill) Perhaps a special rule such as rending etc to emphasize their specialty and expertise at melee combat?

Beastmasters/Pack: I don't have much experience with these unfortunately. Suggestions?

Hellions: I personally like hellions. They do need a bit more something though. Perhaps giving them a mobile smoke cloud to run interference for other units before using their hit and run tactics? Not sure what would give these guys a defining niche.

Reaver Jetbikes: I believe these are in a good place right now. Any suggestions or comment welcome.

Do you believe Wych cult should get any vehicles/monsters specific to their style or the Cult theme?

I also apologize if I am missing any units. Still getting updated on the current codex.

The best would be a special rule allowing them to always wound on 4+. But it's a little too strong. I would be happy with a mere str4.

Or a rule called "strenght in number" : A wyche unit gain +1 strength for every other wyche unit in CC with the target.

I actually just made my own Codex where I tried to address these problems in a fun and fluffy way.

Succubus: I think compared to the rest of our Codex, the Succubus is fine and can bring some much needed AP2 to some lists. I think if we did not have the Court, we would see Succubi much more often.
The biggest problem really is that squishy T3. Personally, I always thought that a Succubus should be a challenge monster and get some bonuses for that.


Wyches: There are countless ideas how to make Wyches work. Many want to make them more durable and give them some means against overwatch, but I disagree with that. The unit really should be difficult to get into combat. However, once it is in combat your reward should be so much higher.
First, I think they should be much cheaper. About 7 or 8 points max. This gives them both, a higher body count to mitigate incoming fire as well as greater damage when they are in combat. Moreover, Combat Drugs should be improved to a level that every choice is equally strong. I mean +1 Leadership... really?

Imagine Wyches would always get +1 T or something equally strong, it would almost be a completely different unit (and also give a needed buff to all Wych Cult units).
Finally, I think Wych Cult Weapons should have a much greater impact. We have enough shooty poison and Wracks should be responsible for delivering poison in melee. Therefore, Wyches should get the job to kill units with a good armour save. Killing everything with a 4+ or lower with ease and even having a decent change against MEQ.

My Wych Cult Weapon list was the following: Straight AP3, enemies must re-roll armour saves and all units in contact get -1 attacks. Also, more Wyches should get access to cult-weapons, but only Bloodbrides get them on a 1:1 distribution.
Just giving them rending and call it a day seems so... boring and unimaginative.


Beastmasters: I think Khymera are "okay". Razorwings are waaay too overpriced and Clawed Fiends are just a worse version of the Grotesques. Khymera should become better tanks and get back their 4+ invul save. Razorwings should be on the other side of the spectrum and become much better damage dealers (cheaper, more attacks, better WS and I think it should become a good unit).

Clawed Fiends should be considered like a Beast-Grotesque that moves at high speed. Making them cheaper (25pts) is key to provide majority toughness 5 (if you want) and to further distinguish them from Grotesques. Further, I'd give them Furious Charge and AP4 attacks. 6 Str6 AP4 on the charge is nothing to sneeze and you want to attack as many small squads as possible, as the charging will deal the most damage.


Hellions: Problem with Hellions is that Reavers are much better fast-melee units and Scourges are superior in jump-infantry shooting. So they need something else. Making them troops would be a valid suggestion, another suggestion would be to try and make them more utility based. I think jink for better survival against shooting would be mandatory and scout should also improve their initial speed. I also think Hellglaives should be AP4 and the Stunclaw be more potent as well.

I think a strong Jump-HQ would also be key to support them. *cough* Baron *cough*.
Either way, I think there would be a lot of fun ways that could be thought off, but I think they should be more a "finesse" unit, rather than a straight hammer. They are just some gangs and not trained warriors after all.


Reaver Jetbikes: I think so too, Reavers are certainly among our best units right now. Also, if we were to improve Combat Drugs, they would benefit as well, so I think that should be just fine.


And regarding the Cult-Vehicle, I think the Razorwing is quite a Cult-themed unit. IIRC they are piloted by the best Reaver Jetbike pilots.

If anybody wants to have a look at it my codex, here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/file/15rz491fcncvj5c/Dark+Eldar+Reimagined.pdf

I would think that getting the back some of their old rules.

1. The one when they disallowed +1 atack for 2 CCw. Make it a base rule.

2. Get the 5th edition shardnet rule back. Do something meaningfull with rest wych weapon, i would say that nobody ever take em, but nobody ever takes wyches..so...

They have always been tie elite and then kill them. Mass of atacks trash them, quality atacks - yes they really was wasted on Wyches.

And Hekatrix did the killing. Now, sadly, she really cant. She need at least 1 atack base more. Then those overcosted special weapons might pay off. Get back venom blade and power spear.

Troop/Elite separation of Wyches is horrible. Didnt work out. Now 40k is turning to meta-detachment system there is no need to create second version of unit just to fill FOC. Make em just wyches - place them in apropriate role. I'd be fine if they were more expensive in troops, but have better rules and stacks.

And troops should be warriors/wyches/wracks really.

Wyches: Rending and give them back the ability to purchase haywire grenades.(which have been nerfed in CC, so won't be like it was before)

Succubus: I think they're pretty good. I'd give them the rending ability to stay in step with the wyches they represent, and give them skyboard/bike options, and that's it.

Beastmasters/Pack: I think these are in a pretty good place stat-wise. I'd like to see the unit sizes increased to be bigger than 12 though. We used to be able to make massive beast packs.

Hellions: Bring back old claw character snatch ability. Remove 2h requirement from hellglaives like it was last edition.

Reaver Jetbikes: They're fine.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Wyches: Rending and give them back the ability to purchase haywire grenades.(which have been nerfed in CC, so won't be like it was before)

Succubus: I think they're pretty good. I'd give them the rending ability to stay in step with the wyches they represent, and give them skyboard/bike options, and that's it.

Beastmasters/Pack: I think these are in a pretty good place stat-wise. I'd like to see the unit sizes increased to be bigger than 12 though. We used to be able to make massive beast packs.

Hellions: Bring back old claw character snatch ability. Remove 2h requirement from hellglaives like it was last edition.

Reaver Jetbikes: They're fine.

Quite agree. But I fear Rending would make them more expensive. I would give the Rending to the Bloodbrides.

Hellions - make them troops (representatives of Mercenary clique), allow jink.

aurynn wrote:

Quite agree. But I fear Rending would make them more expensive.

I don't think they'd need to be more expensive. They're already more expensive than daemonettes who have the same statline with +1WS and a 5++ both in and out of combat. Basically, for +1 point cost, in comparison, wyches would get -1WS, lose their invuln save vs. shooting, and get Assault Grenades and +1 invuln in CC. Also, wyches don't have the pseudo-fearless that daemons have.

I'd say with rending they'd be priced just fine.

I quite like the concept of Wyches reducing the toughness or armour save of whatever they're fighting. You could use them in tandem with other units to firstly debuff and then destroy enemy units, but 40K in general is allergic to synergies and synergistic special rules.

Rending is a close enough fit which would actually give them some purpose, even if it is slightly bland. Wyches would be different enough from other our close combat units to carve themselves out a niche, without being over the top.

If their stats and points cost are to remain the same, I also think their combat drugs system could also be updated. Not just the options in the chart itself, but how it gets applied, because honestly, I'm not sure why Dark Eldar never seem to know what damn drugs they're taking, until after they've taken them. Who's to say they won't just poisoned out of spite by their rivals?

We're talking about the most brutal and cutthroat society in the entire galaxy. Surely anyone taking combat drugs should have some control over what combat drugs they take and where they get them from. It makes... sense that they buy the drugs... that actually help them?

Also some people, myself included, subscribe to the notion that Dark Eldar durability is fine where it is - nonexistant. Why take drugs to make your body tougher or your leadership better when you can instead kill your enemies and not need to be tough or brave?

Combat Drugs:
At the start of the game, before deployment, each unit with the Combat Drugs special rule may choose one of the following, which applies to all models with the Combat Drugs special rule in the unit, for the rest of the game:

- +1 Attack
- +1 Strength
- +1 Initiative and +1 Weapon Skill (if you're up against Eldar, this is probably more useful)
- May Run and Charge in the same turn, and adds 1" to Run and Charge results.
etc
-

If they could only use their dodge save against Overwatch, I'd use mine again.

Swapping out the Ld combat drugs for something useful would be an added bonus.

I can think of a lot more things I would LIKE them to have, but at least they'd see my table again with those.

Fellow Archons,

Allow me to show you my fan dex.  It's in my signature.  It's detailed, imperfect, and still W.I.P. but at this point I'd say it's functional as the only things I'm still working on are the thematic missions.  I specifically wrote it with a pure-Wych army in mind (as well as pure Kabalite and pure Coven).  There is even an Incubi formation that would allow you to throw out other troops completely, should you choose to do so (it's more fluffy but it would give you an edge to mitigate the specialization) Please enjoy at your leisure.

Wyches just need +2 to power from pain. Hellions likewise, a usr that lets them HnR at their initiative step, rending, and skilled rider but not jink. 20 body strong Beastpacks, and The succubus doesn't need anything but +2 to power from pain would be swank.

Give Reavers the same 3+ save every other Eldar Jetbike gets.

Yeah, That's pretty reasonable. If you're rumor has any merit it's also the most likely

amorrowlyday wrote:

Yeah, That's pretty reasonable. If you're rumor has any merit it's also the most likely

True. But if they're Aeldari overfaction Reavers they're going to be Cloud Dancers, and if Commorragh is gone they're going to be... posted on ebay

Gladiators are not elite heavy infantry killers (we have incubi for that). Wyches should not get rending - I think they should get the bladestorm version. Basically its rending but only works against T values. They are not tank hunters afterall - they are gladiators.

Giving them a standard rule that removes the 2CCW bonus is also a neat and themed idea.

Giving them an extra attack base (or maybe rage instead?) seems fitting.

Wyche weapons should again, not be AP related - but going back into 3rd edition and handing the unit a cost to equip wyche weapons (say 1ppm) and giving the unit shred(fists), defensive grenades (net), counter attack (flails) could work.

I just think they need to fit a different niche than Incubi who don't see table time as it is.

Hellions - replace entire entry with the 5th edition one - job done. Give them stealth for good measure

Reavers - ditch the HoW attacks and go back to the fly by attacks - screamers still get it (and they have had an update and kept it!). I think it makes WAY more sense than the present rules.

Beasts - again, 5th ed rules in the unit sizes from 7th

I dont know why everyone wants drugs random... Do DE have a loterry before they gead into battle? Or do they just choose which drug to pump?

3 drugs - choice on deploy
1 - +1A, Run + Charge, Move through Cover
2 - +1S, +1 WS,
3 - +1T, +1 on FNP

Something along the lines.

@BetrayTheWorld - that 4++ is really a major thing IMO. I would really really slap rending (or pseudorending) on Bloodbrides.

I don't like the rending idea either, Incubi should be the killy option, Wyches are a tar pit unit, they need help with getting into combat, especially vs overwatch, make the shardnet give -1 attack to opponents, they need to be cheaper too, their current points per wound for a tar pit unit isn't appealing. Hydra gauntlets could grant rending perhaps to a model or two but the entire squad shouldn't have it.

I think hellions are nuisance unit, but they're meh at everything, while Reavers do everything they can do but better and faster, overall I think they need a massive rules rethink. Give them a niche.

Generally, those 2 units are the worst in our codex, the other choices, like Reavers and the Succubus are fine.

Ok. So how would you differentiate Bloodbrides so they would be interesting to take?

aurynn wrote:

Ok. So how would you differentiate Bloodbrides so they would be interesting to take?

Sorry I meant regular wyches with what I wrote earlier. Bloodbrides? im not sure, something like Trueborn, where 4 models can take their special close combat weapons regardless of unit size, with a buff to those special weapons to make them unique, (shardnet -1 base to base attack, hydra gauntlets rending etc), give them 3+ dodge in combat if you wanted to go defensive perhaps.

Overall I'd just like Wyches generally to be given defensive/survival buffs for defensive play, and have Incubi as the aggressive choice. Try to keep their roles specialist and defined. Is what I meant.

Cherrycoke wrote:

Overall I'd just like Wyches generally to be given defensive/survival buffs for defensive play, and have Incubi as the aggressive choice. Try to keep their roles specialist and defined. Is what I meant.

Most certainly not. For me this line of thinking is what destroys the feel of the army for me. I want us to be glass cannons. Buff offensive. Let us have offensive cheaply. Defence is just fine. If you want defensive army, there are others out there.

My worst fear is that every army would be able to be played the same way...

I agree.

Buff the wyches offensive considerably and drop the points.

They wear spandex for armour for Khaine's sake!

Not mentioning that Incubi and Wyches are totally different units with totally different targets. I dont get why people think they are one and the same type of unit.

Because if you hand wyches a reliable way of dealing with heavy infantry on mass they do the same thing as incubi. Right now wyches do different things

aurynn wrote:

Cherrycoke wrote:

Overall I'd just like Wyches generally to be given defensive/survival buffs for defensive play, and have Incubi as the aggressive choice. Try to keep their roles specialist and defined. Is what I meant.

Most certainly not. For me this line of thinking is what destroys the feel of the army for me. I want us to be glass cannons. Buff offensive. Let us have offensive cheaply. Defence is just fine. If you want defensive army, there are others out there.

My worst fear is that every army would be able to be played the same way...

Eh? I didn't mean defensive as in the usual, toughness, armor save, or feel not pain etc etc. Certainly not buff them to be space marine like.

What I meant by defensive buffs, are those that help them actually get into combat (anti-overwatch etc) to do the job they're supposed to, they're built to be a tar pit unit. Very fragile if actually struck but with their in combat dodge they're so evasive that they're  ridiculosuly hard to hit and shift the unit, which fits perfectly well into DE lore and army theme.

That sounds reasonable enough as every army that takes war seriously equips and trains their units to actually see combat. However I think that overwatch is what has to go. It gives the defending unit an extra semi-phase advantage.