How to counter the psychic phase?

TeenageAngst wrote:

Always shoot for Fortune first, and after that Invisibility, and after that Misfortune. Try to have some redundancy. Like Prescience and Guide or Misfortune and Doom, that way you can get your opponent to blow their denial load on one and get the next one off no problem. The key to psychic phase is tricking your opponent into thinking they have a choice as to what they deny. One turn, don't cast invisibility. Let them hold all their dice waiting for it. Or cast it first and let them blow all their dice on it. This works against even good players.

You are perfectly illustrating the point: Eldar (and especially Eldar with supplemental Eldar allies) have the what is arguably one of the most complicated psychic layouts in the game. While there are ways to try to simplify it, it can still be a daunting prospect for a new player.

No one is "bamboozling" anyone. I'd vastly prefer telling someone a strategy is complicated and have them find it easier than they thought than telling someone a strategy is simple and easy only for them to be unprepared and find it too challenging.

Seconded. Psychic deathstar are commonly accepted to be some of, if not, the most complicated single things you can run in a game of 40k.

I also don't think it's as simple as TeenageAngst is letting on....

...let me rephrase. It can be as simple, or as complicated as you want it to be. The more complex has a higher skill ceiling, with greater room for error, but also is FAR AND AWAY more effective than the more simple, rely on luck strategy that TA is espousing.

I've said this lots of times, and this is almost exactly what I'm talking about when I allude to the fact that I don't depend on dice rolls to play this game. If you design your list in such a way that you can almost KNOW with certainty what sorts of powers you're going to have, and have a contingency in place for the times you DON'T get them(because if you didn't get what you wanted, you basically know what you're going to have instead), then that puts your entire game on a new level.

And this is the exacting, analytical approach I take before I ever even BEGIN to put models on a table. It's even more complex when you have so many choices and options once they're there.

Can someone slap a council together, make those kneejerk power decisions, and do OK, or even WELL with them? Sure. A lot depends on opponents and luck in those cases, and a lot of people play nothing but bad opponents(not saying anyone here). But the full potential of that seer council will never be reached, and those quick, kneejerk decisions based on common internet consensus will almost always be less than optimal.

I personally prefer not to depend on luck.

Cool. Thanks for clarifying.

Ive seen it run as a fast deathstar most often.
If anyone feels like giving examples of other more complicated ways to use them that they find most effective i'd enjoy reading about it. Cheers.

I mean considering the most I've had in a "star" is 2 farseers and a warlock in with some windriders I'd say I get more milage than most out of them. You can make them as simple or complex as you want, as Betray said, but don't confuse complexity with superiority. I prefer the KISS method; keep it simple, stupid. Sometimes all you need is Misfortune and a bunch of armorbane weapons. Sometimes you just need a well placed Guide. The psychic phase and seerstars in general are a toolbox, but you don't always need a Snap-on dial-in clicker torque wrench when a hand tightening with a spanner will do the job.

This weekend for instance I played with the Ynnari and ran a single Jetseer and a single Shadowseer in a unit of scatbikes. That combination was virtually unstoppable because I kept throwing all my dice at the same powers over and over. I could have mixed it up, I could have faked my opponent out, but I didn't need to. My problem was a nail and I had a hammer. Except for the one time I blew my entire fistful of dice on a 4 warp charge Eldrich Storm and wiped a unit of marines off the board, but even there I had Guide up.

You're speaking in vague terms. What powers did you use over and over, and how did they make the unit good versus an intelligent opponent?

I speak in vague terms regarding the psychic phase and how to use it because to illustrate how I use it would require a very long post, probably deserving of a post of it's own, and it would basically cause me to have to reveal what I plan to play at adepticon. Otherwise, I'd be all too happy to provide the details.

Look, characters cost a lot of points. 1 character can do some cool things. But when you start stacking them in a single unit, while keeping the powers inside that unit varied, you compound the strength of each one of those characters because the defensive buffs effect all of them. So by keeping them in a ball of death, each one you add to that ball beyond the basic defensive system you put in place adds offensive punch to the deathstar. Once you decide your mode of transportation, you use that to perfectly position yourself for maximum carnage. It's like an invulnerable ball of death that is hopping around killing multiple units every turn. If your seer council is only killing 1 unit a turn, you're probably wasting points, and not reaching your potential.

I see people play games where their jetseer council kills like 2 units the entire game. To me, why bother taking them at that point? As bullet magnets? A good opponent will never let an offensively impotent council be a bullet magnet. They'll just ignore them.

Shadowseer and Jetseer in a unit of 8 scatbikes, cast Guide and Veil. Stretch the unit to be near what you want to kill, plow 32 S6 shots into it, then do it again if you killed the thing or charge into the safety of combat if Veil didn't go off. Hit & Run out, then rinse and repeat. If you do it right you don't even need things like invisibility, fortune, etc. You just need those 2 primaris powers and maybe Doom if you're feeling particularly cheeky.

You're right, that is simple and effective. Also not a lot of characters, and not as expensive as a jetseer council.

That said, most of what they're doing could be done with just the 8 scatbikes themselves, except the hit&run part.

I also have simple, effective uses for psykers like a farseer. Taking a farseer and just planning on taking guide, prescience, and psychic shriek(all primaris powers), gives you the ability to give 2 units rerolls in shooting plus a psychic shriek. That is a solid party buffer.

But that is a cheat. It's a workaround, just like what you're suggesting. It's a way to make a complex phase simple and approachable for laymen who don't want to put a lot of time and thought into their preparation or execution of the phase. There are plenty of SIMPLE methods to apply psykers effectively. But almost universally, they aren't as good as flexible psyker strategies that allow you to customize your army from game to game based on the opponent you play without altering your list. But to formulate and apply these strategies, you really have to embrace the versatility and complexity of the psychic phase. If you want it to be as simple as possible, and you want the answers to all your questions of how to win most effectively to fit on a bumper sticker (SCATBIKES!! SCATBIKES!!), then my explanations are never going to be attractive to you.

I only mention this because it seems like you often try to oversimplify things(not saying that in a derogatory way or anything). You just present your perspectives with tremendous confidence and very little detail, which is fairly common on the internet these days. (ie, "Why do you need strategy? Just take a farseer, wraithknight, 6 units of scatbikes and an aspect host of warp spiders!")

Now to be fair betray if they could just be more approachable about it SCATBIKES!!!!! Is probably the best total newbie advice there is. I strongly believe Ynneadwraith has exactly the correct approach to playing Grand Alliance Eldar in terms of collection and hobby, but I'm using them as an example because some of their weapon choices are head scratchers. With Corsairs, harlies, DE and Character driven Eldar there are a huge variety of loadout choices to juggle with. Scatbikes and Warpspiders are really simple and they'll hammer in gameplay fundamentals to a degree that things that don't tailor to that goal can match.

@doriii A Tzeentch list is what inspired this post! I guess I didn't do right on the numbers game.

Seems like the answers here are allies, or MSU (apparently the eternal answer to our tactical concerns). I definitely did not spread out my points wisely, so I probably had too few targets on the board.

I've always been leery toward allying in Eldar, just because they're branded as OP in the meta, and I like my friends. Maybe a dash here and there won't hurt.

TBH a lot of the hate for Eldar comes from a handful of criminally undercosted units (Scatbikes, Wraithknights and Warp Spiders). The rest of the codex is still pretty strong, but nothing over what the other post-Necron codices are like.

It might get tiring pointing that out to people over and over again, but I feel it's important to spread the word that it's only a few Eldar units that are OP, not the whole codex.

I am not sure I agree with that Ynnead.
Sure a only some of the units are criminally undercosted. But that is not the only problem.
As you mentioned most later codexes are more powerfull then earlyer codexes. But added to that is that as an complete army Eldar have very little weaknesses. They have quite good options for nearly any battlefield role you want to give them. Thus while (except for some exceptions) each unit on it's own might be balanced, the army as a whole still has a very very high power level because it can deal with everything often in multiple ways. Ad to that the ease that their formations make it to take whichever unit you want without any tax/ bad units and the power level increases even further. Also eldar have some of the better options to boost others, psychic but also more mundane. Why would we love to have something like banshee mask autarch. And boosting things which are slightly OP makes the diffrence even more noticable. Now I am not saying everything is evil, and you might not always find a unit that does the same thing only better in Eldar. But you will be able to find a unit that does roughly the same thing, for a reasonable price.  All those things on their own might be ok, but ad them all together and you get something that is quite powerful.
(Also that I just joined a gaming group which have Tyranids, orcs, dark eldar, chaos space marines (who got a bit of a boost recently) and some old school imperial guard, might also make that we have some issues with the Tau and Eldar player for being OP.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

You're right, that is simple and effective. Also not a lot of characters, and not as expensive as a jetseer council.

That said, most of what they're doing could be done with just the 8 scatbikes themselves, except the hit&run part.

The Veil part is critical. It shuts down a guard list, it puts you ahead of other Eldar players, and it makes it so people HAVE to get close to deal with you. Forcing your opponent to make those kinds of decisions is critical in how the rest of the army is formed and played.

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I also have simple, effective uses for psykers like a farseer. Taking a farseer and just planning on taking guide, prescience, and psychic shriek(all primaris powers), gives you the ability to give 2 units rerolls in shooting plus a psychic shriek. That is a solid party buffer.

But that is a cheat. It's a workaround, just like what you're suggesting. It's a way to make a complex phase simple and approachable for laymen who don't want to put a lot of time and thought into their preparation or execution of the phase. There are plenty of SIMPLE methods to apply psykers effectively. But almost universally, they aren't as good as flexible psyker strategies that allow you to customize your army from game to game based on the opponent you play without altering your list. But to formulate and apply these strategies, you really have to embrace the versatility and complexity of the psychic phase. If you want it to be as simple as possible, and you want the answers to all your questions of how to win most effectively to fit on a bumper sticker (SCATBIKES!! SCATBIKES!!), then my explanations are never going to be attractive to you.

Your explanations might be attractive if you ever laid any examples out but I think we have entirely different opinions of the game. I'm a problem-solution kinda guy, you're apparently involved in some kind of omniscient 4th dimensional wizard's chess before you even meet your opponent. To me, I ask, how do I deal with Tau? Eldar is how I deal with Tau. How do I deal with Knights? Misfortune is how I deal with Knights. And if the plan doesn't work out the answer is "I'll think of something" which is way more fun. I play for those moments when I'm on turn 3 and I see the code of the Matrix drizzling across the game table and suddenly my path to victory is illuminated. Too many times I'll walk up to a game table, look at my opponent's army, and realize how the game is going to go before models are even placed. That's not fun. If I sat down and hammered out a mathematical proof of a list that could take literally all comers, it would be an Eldar psychic death star and about as much fun to play as any other death star which is to say not at all.

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I only mention this because it seems like you often try to oversimplify things(not saying that in a derogatory way or anything). You just present your perspectives with tremendous confidence and very little detail, which is fairly common on the internet these days. (ie, "Why do you need strategy? Just take a farseer, wraithknight, 6 units of scatbikes and an aspect host of warp spiders!")

Strategy is absolutely essential on the game table and in list building. Our difference is stylistic, not effectiveness. My answers will get someone from brand new to about 90% of the way there. Heck, the psychic power strategy I described using could be run by a guy with two Start Collecting boxes and a single clown. Your methods will get someone from 90 to 98% but getting people to the caliber where you're talking at is step 1. We're in a topic asking how to shut down psychic phases or use them effectively, and my answers, aside from being easier to understand, are roundly more solid advice for someone with little experience having to deal with it.

I wish we could just play each other and settle this for realzies.

Meandering off topic so I'll spoiler my reply:

Spoiler:

TeenageAngst wrote:

The Veil part is critical. It shuts down a guard list, it puts you ahead of other Eldar players, and it makes it so people HAVE to get close to deal with you. Forcing your opponent to make those kinds of decisions is critical in how the rest of the army is formed and played.

I mean, not really. You could just have 16 scatbikes instead of 8 twin-linked scatbikes with veil. And if you wanted to get the hit and run/veil, you could do that with 1 character at 60 points, or 85 points and have shriek too. In either case, this issue IS mostly stylistic, and is detracting from the main debate.

TeenageAngst wrote:

Our difference is stylistic, not effectiveness.

Based on the previous stories I've seen from you, I don't think this is at all accurate in a general sense.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Now to be fair betray if they could just be more approachable about it SCATBIKES!!!!! Is probably the best total newbie advice there is.

TeenageAngst wrote:

My answers will get someone from brand new to about 90% of the way there. Heck, the psychic power strategy I described using could be run by a guy with two Start Collecting boxes and a single clown. Your methods will get someone from 90 to 98% but getting people to the caliber where you're talking at is step 1.

I don't necessarily agree with your percentages, but I agree with the sentiment. I DO try to make an effort to make posts and opinions here accessible to newbies by trying to be as clear as possible. However, as much as it might occasionally seem like I'm here to stroke my ego, I am here to improve my own play and understanding of the game just as much as the next guy, and I don't do that by talking about the barebones basics of how to beat your buddies in Potato Sack, Montana(Though I do try to help when asked.) The strategies and methods I talk about are meant to elevate people's games in national level tournaments. That is what I'm interested in, and so that is the perspective from which I approach discussion. I want to talk about how to be the best in the world, not how to be the best in Potato Sack. That happens by bouncing high level strategies off of high level thinkers and seeing who pokes holes in your ideas, and how.

As experienced players, we all already know the weaknesses of the cookie cutter council.

TeenageAngst wrote:

I wish we could just play each other and settle this for realzies.

Based on things you've said regarding your approach to gaming, I don't think you'd have fun. Your "warp spider diplomacy" wouldn't phase me or make me flinch.

But maybe we can play. Where do you live?

On my phone so I'll reply to the rest of the replies properly when I get the chance.

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Based on things you've said regarding your approach to gaming, I don't think you'd have fun. Your "warp spider diplomacy" wouldn't phase me or make me flinch.

I have fun getting tabled by good players, because I learn something new. I have more fun tabling good players though, so I think I'd have a blast If you're serious about a game, I live in VA. Hence my rambling constantly about the NOVA circuit lol

TeenageAngst wrote:

If you're serious about a game, I live in VA. Hence my rambling constantly about the NOVA circuit lol

What part? VA is a big state.

I'm in the Richmond area.

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SCATBIKES!!!!! Is probably the best total newbie advice there is.

Testify

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(Also that I just joined a gaming group which have Tyranids, orcs, dark eldar, chaos space marines (who got a bit of a boost recently) and some old school imperial guard, might also make that we have some issues with the Tau and Eldar player for being OP.

Nothing is funnier than a self-hating Eldar or Tau player. Table your opponents, see their models driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the bads.

Honestly, how I deal with the psychic phase is to more or less ignore it, but much of the players here in the Philadelphia area don't really tend to run psychic heavy lists, usually the only time I really see psychic phases being relevant is when I run up against someone running CWE or Drop-Cents. There's not a whole lot to dealing with Drop-Cents. I pretty much just throw everything into stopping whatever power his ML 1 or 2 Libby is trying to get off on the centurions and otherwise throw a beast pack at them and try to keep them locked up as long as possible to set up shooting at them. This usually isn't an issue these days though as I don't usually play against that guy.

In regards to using the psychic phase, when I run a libby in my Imperial Fists, its to help grav centurions so primaris is all I need, and when I run them in my DA list, its a conclave with mind worm. As for the other armies I play, I tend to avoid much to do with psychic phase as I find it too unreliable (I may have the worst luck ever when it comes to dice lol).

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However, as much as it might occasionally seem like I'm here to stroke my ego

I'm not even gonna touch this one.

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I am here to improve my own play and understanding of the game just as much as the next guy, and I don't do that by talking about the barebones basics of how to beat your buddies in Potato Sack, Montana(Though I do try to help when asked.)

Those questions are usually sequestered to the army list building forum, and they frankly baffle me. If you're not playing in a competitive scene it should not be difficult to wring out wins from your local meta if you try hard enough.

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The strategies and methods I talk about are meant to elevate people's games in national level tournaments. That is what I'm interested in, and so that is the perspective from which I approach discussion. I want to talk about how to be the best in the world, not how to be the best in Potato Sack. That happens by bouncing high level strategies off of high level thinkers and seeing who pokes holes in your ideas, and how.

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Honestly, how I deal with the psychic phase is to more or less ignore it

Gonna go for 2 birds with one stone here. The new hotness is, according to my friend anyway, coming up with death stars that don't require the psychic phase at all. 40 dogs with a rerollable 4++ save that get FNP when standing anywhere close to an objective is a thing. This all comes from a few ICs, no psychic dice needed. You could add psychic shenanigans certainly but just that right there is magical enough. Apparently multi-spectral quantum analysis of the psychic tables and Monte Carlo dice rolling probability curves resulted in people just ignoring it altogether and coming up with a way to have invincible units that doesn't rely on psychic powers at all. So yes, if you plan your list around it, ignoring the psychic phase entirely is not only a perfectly acceptable strategy but is currently sought after.

This is part of the reason why I'm so enamored with Death from the Skies. It gives flyers powers that used to only be available to a very small minority of armies or people who relied heavily on psychic dice. For the price of 2 flyers I can give them a +2/-2 to my own reserves, a -2 to my opponent's reserves, ob-sec in hover mode, the ability to come on all at once, and if I take one of the formations, the addition of those formation benefits. And that's before getting my Attack Pattern which I'm guaranteed to have since they all come on at the same time. If I bring 4 flyers I also get a 4++, IWND, and Interceptor, or +1BS, +1 to Jink, Ignores Cover, and Tank Hunter, or Preferred Enemy for a specific unit type for the rest of the game. With that toolbox, I don't need psychic powers or luck, I have the rules to get what I need and when I need it.

That's a nice build, and a good way to use the DftS book.

I wish it were more useful to the rest of us. The ITC rules seem to be the most common set of competitive FAQs/restrictions in use, and neither the ITC nor most of the local shops I've seen seem to have any interest in using DftS. Do any of the other major tournament formats allow it? NOVA, ATC, etc? (Pun intended.)

I wish it were something I could apply to my games.

NOVA format allows it and the NOVA GT used DftS last year. Someone ran flyrants with 4 Hemlocks and did surprisingly well with it.

You can apply it to your games you just can't apply it in ITC tournaments. Like I said before though, I'm lucky if I get to 1 tournament a month and I certainly play more often than that.

Sounds like I need to start bringing DftS when I play at my FLGS.

TeenageAngst wrote:

Apparently multi-spectral quantum analysis of the psychic tables and Monte Carlo dice rolling probability curves resulted in people just ignoring it altogether and coming up with a way to have invincible units that doesn't rely on psychic powers at all.

You know, oddly enough, a shift like this in the meta actually makes psychic lists more powerful, though, haha. Since fewer opponents will have the dice or bonuses to deny the witch that psykers provide, psychic powers become more reliable.

To be honest, there are very few times anyone successfully denies anything important when I play psykers. Maybe 3 games ever, has anyone denied anything I cared about. I just generally don't target lvl 3-4 psykers with witchfires or maledictions.(Which is just sort of a way of saying I choose targets carefully to make sure DtW risk is minimized.

And eldar barely ever fail to cast, with 3+ successes from the council, rerolls once per turn for dice you don't like, and ghost helms that limit exposure to damage from using too many dice.

Psychics all depend on who plays what and how where you play. Again, in my area, nobody plays psychics in any real capacity. I build my lists to ignore the phase, or use it to pop off a few buffs when needed, but more than like 100 points in psykers is nearly unheard of in my local players. Why waste the points when I can use them elsewhere?