A 'Girly-Man' Mon-Keigh returns, a pleasurable prize to take

With Roboute returning, we're gonna need some fresh tactics to bring down that monstrosity.

I'd prefer to use true (Neo) Commorite tactics (perhaps with some Covens aide), but aside from pouring on ALL shooting on this guy for a turn (where he has a 2+, 3++, 5+), how else might we quell this fraud.

Tactical Thoughts?

Quick math time.

Girly man is T6, W6, 2+, FnP, with the ability to return on d3 wounds.

So on the start, maybe 9 unsaved wounds to kill.
1/3 is covered by FnP, meaning 14 actual saves failed.
5/6 will save, so 84 wounds needed.
Half will wound on poison, so 168 hits needed.
And we usually hit 2/3 of the time, so 252 shots would be needed on pure maths alone.

Which I'm sure I don't need to tell you is the combined firepower of 21 Venoms on double-cannons, or 126 Kabalite Warriors within Rapid Fire range (not accounting for Splinter Racks).
That can also work out as 12 Venoms on double-cannon, with a full complement of 5 Warriors aboard each, and within Rapid Fire range.

ADDENDUM - or 84 Scourge with Shard Carbines, or 9.3 units of five Scourge with four SPlinter Cannons at full Salvo rate.

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To take Lances into account, its still 9 wound to kill, but he's down to his 3++.
1/3 will FnP, 14 failed invuln saves needed.
2/3 will save, so rounding its 21 wounds needed.
5/6 will wound, so 26 hits needed.
And again we hit 2/3 of the time, so 38 shots from Lances alone.

Thats 13 Ravagers with Dark Lances.

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Looking at Ravagers, I'll do a quick run on Ravagers with Disintegrators.
1/3 will FnP, 14 failed invuln saves needed.
2/3 will save, so rounding its 21 wounds needed.
This time only 1/3 will wound, so 63 hits needed.
And again we hit 2/3 of the time, so 95 shots from Lances alone.

3 shots per Disintegrator means needing 32 of them, meaning 11 Ravagers with nothing by Disintegrators.

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*note that "number of models" is based on a single turn of shooting, and does not factor in multiple rounds of shooting from the same unit.

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Final note - something better than lots of guns is required.

Freakshow is pretty much out as his Ld can't be lowered from 10.

Tarpit and ignore him, win the game on objectives?

Considering the INSANE buffs he gives out to the rest of his army, I don't think simply tarpitting him is the best route. Friendly units get to reroll morale, and within 12" get  his Ld, Move Through Cover, +1" to Run and Charge, reroll 1s in Shooting and Assault, and Enemyn within 12" use lowest Ld in unit.

He's too buffy to be allowed to live.
Plus, he does have the stupid ""Whirling Flame" thing - one close combat attack per enemy model within 1" (in combat). He'll tear out of most tarpits.
Some of those could also end up being D hits, making even Grotesques a dodgy option.

I hate to say it - Revenant Titan. Pulsar that man to hell.

Needless to say, pure DE remedies to this gentleman are few and far between. Our Craftworld Overlords Cousins have more options. I'm mainly thinking wraithguard and wraithknights. Just bombard him with D weapons and hope to roll a 6.

@ Count Adhemar I hate to say it but yeah I think this may be the best option but even then...

Count, that may well be the best option. We just don't have it in us (The D).


Here's a slightly more useful version of the maths.

If we assume that by a combination of his gun of combat Guilliman could destroy a unit a turn, 21 Venoms option would actually be 21 rounds of Venoms shooting at Guilliman.
At a rate of losing one Venom per turn (not counting passengers) and based only on a basic 5 turn game you would NEARLY be there on a 6 Venom list, but that would be one short. To cover the numbers you'd need to field 7 Venoms whose firepower dedicated to Guilliman for the entire 5 turns.

The 12 Venoms with full passenger complement has a far easier time. If we assume on the math that both a Venom and a unit inside can die each Ultramarine turn (he can shoot the Venom down, and then charge the unit of Warriors), 5 loaded Venom units would be required and dedicated to Guilliman for a 5 turn game.

Similarly the 13 Lance Ravager option on a 5 turn game would require 5 Ravagers dedicated to Guilliman for the whole 5 turns, assuming one were killed by him each turn, and the Disintegrator option would the same (although only just missing out on taking him down in turn 4).



Throne, I am having such a boring day at work today..........

@Squidmaster I'm with you on the work front. Problem is there that you are allocating a heck of lot of points at killing him, and that's all assuming the rest of his army isn't targeting your venoms trying to take them out!

Which they probably would be as it would be most of your army!

Perhaps the best course is not to kill the buffer but those getting the buffs?

He's also limited on movement (only 6" a turn) and doesn't have a jump pack or wings.

He does have a nice 12" buff bubble around him that most of the smurfs will want to stay in... Perhaps a mass of Monosythe missiles would help?

Tank shock him to move him far away from his buffed troops?

smith1186 wrote:

He's also limited on movement (only 6" a turn) and doesn't have a jump pack or wings.

He does have a nice 12" buff bubble around him that most of the smurfs will want to stay in... Perhaps a mass of Monosythe missiles would help?

Actually there is an interesting point there. If the oppone t gets as many people as possible in range of those buffs, the Voidraven might become a decent option if you go for Dark Scythes for the blast templates....

I'd say kill everything else.
He's slow, cannot be embarked and costs a lot.
To get the buffs the enemy needs to stay close to him. So keep the distance, play objectives and shoot all the marines.

On a not purely Dark Eldar note, laugh of sorrow would be trolltastic.

dumpeal wrote:

Tank shock him to move him far away from his buffed troops?

It's sort of a crap shoot there, because if he chooses to death or glory your tank shock, he's basically guaranteed a penetrating hit on a 3+ to hit. Of course, the model dies if he fails the death or glory hit, so it's sort of an interesting option. The problem is, if he doesn't death or glory, he just moves a little, then destroys your vehicle and/or the passengers on his turn.

In the ITC, he's even tougher to take down since ranged D weapons can't score a "6" on the D chart.

It's a tough position, being against him because he buffs his army so well, but staying away from him with EVERYTHING seems like the safest way to deal with him because he's so hard to kill, yet slow-moving.

It would take 63 scatterbikes to take him down in 1 turn, which, of the possibilities mentioned, is probably the most realistically feasible that you might see on a table. That's just over 1000 points in scatterbikes.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

dumpeal wrote:

Tank shock him to move him far away from his buffed troops?

It's sort of a crap shoot there, because if he chooses to death or glory your tank shock, he's basically guaranteed a penetrating hit on a 3+ to hit. Of course, the model dies if he fails the death or glory hit, so it's sort of an interesting option. The problem is, if he doesn't death or glory, he just moves a little, then destroys your vehicle and/or the passengers on his turn.

I didn't check how he is geared, so I don't contest your "penetrating on a 3+". But even then, it's 1/3 chance he doesn't penetrate. On the penetrating chart, it's roughly 1/2 of the damage that will save him from death. And with a venom, you have an invulnerable save. The chance of insta-kill him is real if he choose to glory or death. It's a lot better than use 20 venoms or 15 ravagers.

And my point was not to use a single tank shock. It was to tank shock 6 times in a row, to move him really far away, then wall him with raiders.

He hits on a 3+ but it's S10, AP1 so that's an auto-pen and +3 on the damage table vs our open-topped vehicles. On a To Hit roll of 6 it's Strength D.

If most of your opponent's army is staying within 12" of Girly Man, then most of your opponent's army is moving (at most) no more than 12" a turn (assuming he's using his Fleet Run move). That is going to make it hard to score in a maelstrom of war mission. Or, your opponent will move away from Guiliman at which point they're not benefitting from his buff, and significantly more than 300 points is furiously running about shooting his respectable but not game-breaking 24" shooty weapon.

I expect that because your opponent will be trying to keep his army close to Girly Man, that we'll see a lot of shooty units surrounding him like Devastators or Devastator Centurions to mitigate his low reach.

Count Adhemar wrote:

He hits on a 3+ but it's S10, AP1 so that's an auto-pen and +3 on the damage table vs our open-topped vehicles. On a To Hit roll of 6 it's Strength D.

This. So on a 3+ to hit, every result on the penetrating hit table saves him, and any hit is automatically a penetrating hit, so all he has to do is hit. That said, I wouldn't risk it if I were playing him. I'd just move for the tank shock.

As for his buffs only effecting units within 12", that isn't exactly true. He still has the buffs that allow rerolls, which effects the entire army regardless of range, and he provides 3 of the ultramarine tactics buffs to the army as well.

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He's basically an army-wide force multiplier with all his army buffs, that also happens to be about as difficult to kill as a couple wraithknights....and we get a S6/T6 MC with a 3+/5++ and no D capability as our "God"...pathetic.

I'm pretty disgusted with how the characters went in this set of releases. Cawl and Celestine, badass. All 3 Ynnari characters stats are forgetable, outshined by existing things like farseers/Eldrad, then out comes more imperium stuff, badass once again.

I feel like GW doesn't know how to make Eldar models good without just giving them access to a bunch of psychic powers, and in the case of the Yncarne and Yvraine, they're far more limited in what they can get than farseers, so the tax for them to be a psyker isn't worth it. I'd rather lower the Yncarne's price by 75 points and drop the 3 mastery levels. Yvraine is meh and overpriced when compared to a farseer. The visarch is a decent beat-stick, but can't ride in a vehicle in non-ynnari armies, so Ynnari armies are the only real option for him, where the army rules heavily favor shooting instead of melee.

The ynnari army rules are awesome. It's just a shame none of the characters are really worth playing. I really like the models.

It seems like they're trying to avoid making them too similar, stat-wise, to anything space marines have, but that just generally means they're going to be worse. They should have thought more about making them force multipliers that give buffs to a Ynnari army as a whole.

/EndRant

P.S. I -could- be wrong about the Yncarne...her ability to teleport around the map when units die gives her a unique ability to deny enemy objective scoring in their turn. But that is a very situationally useful thing only really that useful in very specific tournament formats that use modified maelstrom rules where you score at the end of each player turn.

Girlyman, celestine and cawl are nigh on impossible to kill, for most armies.
Your forced to ignore them and go for objs.

This, like some deathstars, is just stupid game design that kills fun.
A retarded monkey can see this but not GW.

Bring corsairs and continually cast webway maze on him.

Does he ignore all negative leadership modifiers full stop, or only on leadership checks?