8e - Infantry is up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/

Yeh, split-fire for everyone, and as many targets as you want apparently.

Dalamar wrote:

Yeh, split-fire for everyone, and as many targets as you want apparently.

It's interesting... but is definitely not going 'speed up' the game.


The new S vs T mechanic is going to produce some odd changes. For example, with bolters, you'll be able to wound MCs with T5-7 on a 5+, and a 6+ on T8 and beyond. So, light vehicles and most monstrous creatures are actually going to be a bit more fragile than in previous editions - though, it seems likely that they'll be given more wounds to compensate for this.

Bugger. 6's wound anything. What an utter cop out!

I like the split fire though as it never made sense that units couldn't do that in the first place.

The only drawback I can see is the Talos and cronos wounded on a 5+. Everything else looks mostly beneficial.

6+ and gretchin can take out hive tyrant... what can i say? Sweet.
That was one of the worst illogical rumors when 7th prepared for release. And now we have it.

We can do this! Stay positive! We can do this! Stay positive!

krayd wrote:

Dalamar wrote:

Yeh, split-fire for everyone, and as many targets as you want apparently.

It's interesting... but is definitely not going 'speed up' the game.


The new S vs T mechanic is going to produce some odd changes. For example, with bolters, you'll be able to wound MCs with T5-7 on a 5+, and a 6+ on T8 and beyond. So, light vehicles and most monstrous creatures are actually going to be a bit more fragile than in previous editions - though, it seems likely that they'll be given more wounds to compensate for this.

If MC's are getting 2-3x more wounds, this is fine, bolters will act almost the same.

The BIGGEST thing is bolters (and all guns) can hurt everything now. SO MC's Raiders, Dredknoughts etc... can be taken down SO MUCH EASIER.

But with that said, S8 and S9 "might" need 3-4's to hurt our vehicles compare to 2-3's

Devilogical wrote:

6+ and gretchin can take out hive tyrant... what can i say? Sweet.
That was one of the worst illogical rumors when 7th prepared for release. And now we have it.

We can do this! Stay positive! We can do this! Stay positive!  

There is something comical about a mob of 20+ gretchin mobbing all over a hive tyrant and chopping it to pieces.

Hell, it was pretty comical when it happened to my Archon during a 3rd edition game.

It's not going to slow the game at all... You already split up weapons to fire

Massaen wrote:

It's not going to slow the game at all... You already split up weapons to fire

The actual mechanics won't be any slower but you can bet your ass the decision making will be!

krayd wrote:

Devilogical wrote:

6+ and gretchin can take out hive tyrant... what can i say? Sweet.
That was one of the worst illogical rumors when 7th prepared for release. And now we have it.

We can do this! Stay positive! We can do this! Stay positive!  

There is something comical about a mob of 20+ gretchin mobbing all over a hive tyrant and chopping it to pieces.

Hell, it was pretty comical when it happened to my Archon during a 3rd edition game.

In the previous edition, I had a mob of kroots assaulting and killing my Lelith Hesperax. What a disapointment.

Seems like having a more diverse weapon mix in kabalite and trueborn squads could be quite useful now. Dark lances in warrior squads for example.

For DE, the only benefit of the new To Wound mechanic is that S5 only wounds us on a 3+ rather than a 2+. So Heavy Bolters and Tau are slightly worse against us, which I suppose is a good thing.

Marines get improvements against S6 and 7 (ie scatter lasers and plasma). Just in case they were struggling a bit, poor little mites.

Darklight is now worse against T5 and 6 but better against T10+

EDIT - actually darklight is only better against T10-15. Once we hit 16+ it's back to 6+ to wound.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Darklight is now worse against T5 and 6 but better against T10+

This might depend on how they change lance.

CurstAlchemist wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Darklight is now worse against T5 and 6 but better against T10+

This might depend on how they change lance.

Yes, all of the above is without any knowledge of any special rules that may or may not apply and is based purely on a S v T comparison.

Count Adhemar wrote:

The actual mechanics won't be any slower but you can bet your ass the decision making will be!

Analysis Paralysis. I hate it when it takes someone 5 minutes to decide if they want to move a model or not, now it will be longer :-P

As for the new rules- YAY1 we can hurt anything!

OH CRAP!! split fire will take our vehicles out in droves! So my 10 man marine squad will shoot a combi melta at this venom, the melta at that venom, the missle at that raider, and the bolters at that other raider over there. 1 squad taking out 4 DE vehicles.
Yeah, not so nice but wont panic until I see our vehicle rules.

Skulnbonz wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

The actual mechanics won't be any slower but you can bet your ass the decision making will be!

Analysis Paralysis. I hate it when it takes someone 5 minutes to decide if they want to move a model or not, now it will be longer :-P

As for the new rules- YAY1 we can hurt anything!

OH CRAP!! split fire will take our vehicles out in droves! So my 10 man marine squad will shoot a combi melta at this venom, the melta at that venom, the missle at that raider, and the bolters at that other raider over there. 1 squad taking out 4 DE vehicles.
Yeah, not so nice but wont panic until I see our vehicle rules.

Honestly, if you've decided to put all your vehicles in a ring 6" around a squad of tacticals you deserve to loose. You also missed that we'll have more wounds, Melta will only wounds our vehicles on a 3+ (remains to be seen how the Melta rule will work now), that our vehicles will get saves (probably not high enough to make a difference against Melta's but better against bolters), one shotting is out the window and I'm willing to bet that Nightshields will be BS modifier now.

I'm really liking these changes, the only thing I'm more worried about is our Talos and Cronos being mroe vulnerable to S4 and 5, but if they go up to 9 wounds each it wont really matter. Split fire can be great on units of Kabalites that take a single Blaster now.

Imateria wrote:

Honestly, if you've decided to put all your vehicles in a ring 6" around a squad of tacticals you deserve to loose.

I was thinking more along the lines of a 15+ vehicle DE army against drop pods going second, but please, by all means keep thinking good thoughts!

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You also missed that we'll have more wounds,

Says who?
Did you see the Talos stats, or are you assuming (and probably correctly) that there will be a wound increase? Funny how if it may be negative, everyone is all "wait for the stats" but if it is positive, its 100% ok to assume. I find this interesting.

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Melta will only wounds our vehicles on a 3+ (remains to be seen how the Melta rule will work now), that our vehicles will get saves (probably not high enough to make a difference against Melta's but better against bolters), one shotting is out the window and I'm willing to bet that Nightshields will be BS modifier now.

again, speculation but i do not disagree with any of it. Sadly, for all this "everything is going to be great", rah-rah stuff, it does not invalidate a single comment I made about split fire possibly being a huge issue for us. If you can assume no instant death, meltas will suck, we get a save, etc... I can assume the opposite and guess what... My assumption is just as valid as yours.

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I'm really liking these changes, the only thing I'm more worried about is our Talos and Cronos being mroe vulnerable to S4 and 5, but if they go up to 9 wounds each it wont really matter. Split fire can be great on units of Kabalites that take a single Blaster now.

Don't know why, but I agree that the Talos should get about 9 wounds...
That being said, I remember "Ravening Hordes" which this seems a lot like to me.. all the armies were so toned down and vanilla it was a shock.
So with all this talk about night shields, poison, lance weaponry, drugs etc... there is a chance there will be NONE of that in our new mini dex.
GW did it before with Ravening Hordes, maybe they are doing it again. just sayin..

Im honestly not worried about the grotesque/talos for my DE. even tho I can make a 3k army list with just those models (and the Haemi's too with a few raiders).

I got into DE for the Pirate Raider style aethestics. If I cant Raider/Venom/Bike SPam I'll just go back to Nids (Or hopefully Corsairs if they get updated and updated with the same flavor).

This tib bit of infor makes it seem like Infantry will be king and vehicles/mc will suffer a little.

SO I have some hopes for DE now, but honestly Corsairs are sounding more and more fun with all these rules coming out.

A cheap 95pts unit (95pt currently) has 3 dudes with 4 pistols and 2 with Fusion guns, Melee or not with Pistols shooting and fusions at something else. This is sounding awesome.

Quote :

That being said, I remember "Ravening Hordes" which this seems a lot like to me.. all the armies were so toned down and vanilla it was a shock.
So with all this talk about night shields, poison, lance weaponry, drugs etc... there is a chance there will be NONE of that in our new mini dex.
GW did it before with Ravening Hordes, maybe they are doing it again. just sayin..

A very likely scenario. What's the easiest way to balance? Make everything identical.

I bet I know how they will handle poison. There will be an "Unliving" keyword, like in shadow war: Armageddon, and poison simply won't work against anything with that keyword, which will likely include all vehicles and necrons, and possibly things like wraith constructs.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I bet I know how they will handle poison. There will be an "Unliving" keyword, like in shadow war: Armageddon, and poison simply won't work against anything with that keyword, which will likely include all vehicles and necrons, and possibly things like wraith constructs.

Yay, anything can hurt anything! Unless you're Dark Eldar...

Count Adhemar wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I bet I know how they will handle poison. There will be an "Unliving" keyword, like in shadow war: Armageddon, and poison simply won't work against anything with that keyword, which will likely include all vehicles and necrons, and possibly things like wraith constructs.

Yay, anything can hurt anything! Unless you're Dark Eldar...

I'm going to go ahead and predict that poison rule will cause weapons to wound on a 4+, up to a particular T threshold (let's say... T10 and lower), and then wounds on 6+ vs. anything higher than that.

Or, they will simply remove poison weapons and adjust our weapon S3 (forgetting we were originally S4 before poison weapons)

Nah, I'm betting on keywords. That means, against anything without the unliving keyword, our weapons will use 4+ for the poison rule, and against unliving targets, we'll wound on 6's using our weapon's strength(of either 1 or 3, probably).

I'm really curious, with the addition of charging units always attacking first, how they're going to balance units that previously had high initiatives as one of their main selling points. Without high initiative, pretty much every DE melee unit is WAY worse.