8e - Drukhari

The Shredder wrote:

Logan Frost wrote:

What you are missing is the full rulebook, our ruleset and their dataslate, with stats, full equip and options.

Yeah, but so are the people saying wyches are improved.

Nope, who wrote the article asserting wyches are improved have it all, of course they may be biased and coerced by GW, but I don't see the point in blatantly lie rather than actually improve them and sell more minis.

Logan Frost wrote:

Nope, who wrote the article asserting wyches are improved have it all, of course they may be biased and coerced by GW, but I don't see the point in blatantly lie rather than actually improve them and sell more minis.

Nor do I, but it's what we've seen for the past 2 editions or so.

Nah, they never said they improved them in the previous editions, they just nerfed time after time for no apparent reason.
At least they didn't lie.

Logan Frost wrote:

Nah, they never said they improved them in the previous editions, they just nerfed time after time for no apparent reason.

But that was my point - they could have fixed them in past editions to sell more models, but instead chose not to.

Logan Frost wrote:

At least they didn't lie.

Pretty sure they did, actually. I doubt I'll be able to prove it though, since any promotional stuff for 7th has long since been erased from their site.

However, there is this quote on the product description for Wytches:

"In the craft of murder, Wyches have no equal."

I think I can fairly call that out as a lie.

The Shredder wrote:

Logan Frost wrote:

Nah, they never said they improved them in the previous editions, they just nerfed time after time for no apparent reason.

But that was my point - they could have fixed them in past editions to sell more models, but instead  chose not to.

However, apparently playtesting hasn't been a priority of GW's until now either... they certainly didn't outsource playtesting to Americans (or at least, if they did, they never talked about it). So, there is at least a decent possibility that 8th will turn out differently from most of the preceding editions.

No!
The sky is falling!
Due to what we've been told we know everything and it sucks!

/Sarcasm off

krayd wrote:

So, there is at least a decent possibility that 8th will turn out differently from most of the preceding editions.

It's possible, sure. I'm just saying that nothing I've seen makes me optimistic for that being the case.

I'm happy to be wrong in this, but given GW's track record I've got no intention of giving them the benefit of the doubt.

CptMetal wrote:

No!
The sky is falling!
Due to what we've been told we know everything and it sucks!

/Sarcasm off

It happens every edition. I like to at least wait until I have all the info before I curse GW's name

With regards to wyches it's completely​ feasible that they could be the most improved unit and still be poor. Take diarrhoea, it can improve to a nice firm stool, but it's still a turd.

The most important thing is that it's a new game so it's pointless to compare the old with the new. However, I'd be surprised if we are comparatively worse than we are now, but will we be the best most op faction? I doubt it and seriously hope not.

You know, I just had a thought about a weapon in our arsenal that is getting very little attention but, with what has been released, has actually gotten stronger and is poised to add much needed synergy between our units. I am talking about the humble Shredder. This weapon is now able to do actual work as blast weapons have moved away from templates and scatter and have moved to D3-D6 hits per shot. This means that at the very least the shredder will hit once and given the possibilities (unlikely but still) that might be all it needs. This next part is pure wish listing but could make for interesting discussion. This is where the shredder is poised to add synergy. The "no escape" rule on the wyches got me thinking that a 57% chance to keep the enemy from running away is a bit low ... And as there was a lot of unspoken excitement about wyches, there may be a way to modify that roll more in our favor. The shredder could do this (along with aura buffs from succubus and lilyth). The shredder could have rules that for each hit suffered the enemy suffers a -1 penalty to the roll off, or effects movement in the the enemy gets tangled up in the net and loses 1" per hit. Or (better yet) the enemy loses the ability to fire overwatch for a turn is they are trying to untangle their weapons... Any one of those rules would give our troops the synergy they have been lacking ... Thoughts?

der-al wrote:

With regards to wyches it's completely​ feasible that they could be the most improved unit and still be poor. Take diarrhoea, it can improve to a nice firm stool, but it's still a turd.

The most appropriate description I have heard so far!

Archon_91, not sure if the shredder would be given rules that slow the enemy down but I think you're totally right in that it'll be a lot better this edition. It's S6 isn't it? Running off the D3 or D6 hits for blast weapons this may give it the extra punch it needs to be useful, especially against low model count or single model units with a decent toughness.

The one I'm curious about is the shardnet and impaler. I could easily see each the rules for them going like this "For each Shardnet in the Wych unit you may substract 1 from the roll of your opponent to escape combat, the impaler has -1AP." This means a unit of wyches with 3 shardnets will auto-succeed on their no-escape rule on a 3+ (assuming their opponent rolls a 6). If our Wych units have to stick with the 3 specials in a unit of 10 rule then I might imagine we could be seeing 2 razer/hydras combed with 1 shardnet per unit.

And as lackluster as it sounds having our Razorflails and Hydras be -1AP may seem disappointing but that is a boost to them. AP not being an all-or-nothing system anymore makes even -1AP pretty decent but since they were AP5 before and GW in almost all the weapons announced so far only gave -1AP to anything that used to be AP4 our Wych weapons got boosted. We also still don't know the other special rules that apply to the Razorflail and Hydra gauntlet so they could have some awesome extra rules that help out too.

I'm not standing up to be a GW fanboy, they have a long way to go to earn that trust but what we've seen so far for 8th editions release is looking at least a little bit hopeful that'll be a far more balanced edition than 7th could ever dream to be. The DE faction focus was lackluster but it also wasn't our entire army in there. Some ire shown it's way is warranted for that but I believe the doom and gloom posting is a bit overboard.

inevitable_faith wrote:

And as lackluster as it sounds having our Razorflails and Hydras be -1AP may seem disappointing but that is a boost to them.

It is a boost, yes. But for a unit that was one of the absolute worst in the game in 7th, you have to admit it's a pretty meagre boost.


Anyway, on a more interesting note, I find myself wondering whether disintegrators will basically replace Dark Lances in the new edition.
- The new rules mean that they'll rarely need more than a 5 to wound something (assuming their strength remains unchanged).
- They only do 2 wounds apiece (as opposed to the Dark Lance's d6), however they do so reliably and have 3 times as many shots as the Dark Lance.
- The rate of fire mean that they double as anti-infantry weapons.

Of course, their AP is 1 worse and we don't know if their strength has remained the same (S4 would be a lot less useful against many vehicles and MCs).

Any thoughts?

I really hope they got rid of bloodbrides, so there is isnt 2 version of Wyches one of which is crappier then another.

The Shredder wrote:

Any thoughts?

My random guess is that Dissies will be a staple of the DE army, but probably not fully replace blasters and dark lances. Some players will be looking for nice, clean "finishing blow" weapons against vehicles and MCs that have maybe 2-4 wounds left so they don't "waste" a damage roll of 6 from their las/lance equivalents, and the dissies perform that duty admirably. That, and of course popping Terminators and NuMarines, will probably be some of the best uses of the Dissie.

For what it's worth, Dissies do outperform Dark Lances against at least some of the profiles we've seen for big bad vehicles, such as the Imperial Knight. T6 and T7 is a sweet spot for the Lance, and so is T10+ (such as the stronghold fortifications that were teased just earlier today). And of course, anything with an invuln is probably an ideal target for Dissies since the DL's -4 AP matters less.

The Shredder wrote:

inevitable_faith wrote:

And as lackluster as it sounds having our Razorflails and Hydras be -1AP may seem disappointing but that is a boost to them.

It is a boost, yes. But for a unit that was one of the absolute worst in the game in 7th, you have to admit it's a pretty meagre boost.


Anyway, on a more interesting note, I find myself wondering whether disintegrators will basically replace Dark Lances in the new edition.
- The new rules mean that they'll rarely need more than a 5 to wound something (assuming their strength remains unchanged).
- They only do 2 wounds apiece (as opposed to the Dark Lance's d6), however they do so reliably and have 3 times as many shots as the Dark Lance.
- The rate of fire mean that they double as anti-infantry weapons.

Of course, their AP is 1 worse and we don't know if their strength has remained the same (S4 would be a lot less useful against many vehicles and MCs).

Any thoughts?

2 things:

1) About Wychs really fast.

Note "These are just assumptions"

I honestly think Wychs will be "better" but that doesnt mean they will be used, even if they encrease is killingness and decrease in points, i most likely still wont use them, monestly b.c warriors backing up incubi i feel will be more my style and better.


40k always has this balance of under-kill and over-kill in melee, you want to kill just enough. but now b.c units can back out (unless against Wychs or surrounded) this is even harder to balance with the Wych. Look at vehicles, MC's and many other things we've seen so far, they are T5-8. Sense everyone can assault out of vehicles, and vehicles can even win combats now (if a vehicle gets 1 kill there is potential they lose moral and lose another model).

So for me a Wych unit would kill enough to weakend the unit and survive enough rounds in melee.

But Incubi for me can be that unit potential S6, just as many if not more attacks, most likely better Rend and a 3+ save (Tho that save can be Rend down at least they get it vs shooting too and sense Bolters dont have Rend anymore many other weapons i feel wont either like Scatter Lasers, many Tau weapons etc..) if they want to shoot and kill Incubi theyw ill have to over kill them (and I rather be over killed and they waste shots than kill something more important like talos, or Troops).

Over all Troops i feel will still be very important.


2) Dis Cannons

For me I will be using Dis Cannons until I see more rules (for to-hit modifiers, special rules to re-roll 1's or auto hits etc...).

For me DL's never worked... ever, i've made lists with 50+ DL's before to make them work... and for some reason they never work for me.

I stopped using them long ago and went full Haywire for AT and Dis Cannons/Splinter for AI.

amishprn86 wrote:

For me DL's never worked... ever, i've made lists with 50+ DL's before to make them work... and for some reason they never work for me.

Dark Lances worked for me . . . when I switched to Corsairs and could get bunches of them at a very low cost.

Then again, I also had Meltas and Scatter Lasers in abundance.


Out of interest, when you stopped using Dark Lances, what did you use to destroy vehicles?

I'm under no illusions that Wyches will be awesome this edition, I personally imagine them as being a mostly ok unit, still outclassed by Kabalites for almost any situation and they'd be preferred over Kabalites in only certain matchups. I think the go-to troop choice will still be Kabalite warriors. I was just trying to point out that in atleast one way they did get better AP (as underwhelming as it is). I think tomorrows focus on transports may shed some extra light on how we will be able to use ours and Wyches may get another small boost depending on how transports work in 8th.

@Azdrubael I really hope they don't get rid of Bloodbrides, I spent a lot of time converting and painting mine to be unique and stand out from my regular Wyches. It's a selfish reason to want to keep them I know. I think it'd be cool if they did differentiate the two though, perhaps make bloodbrides the "more killy" version of Wyches with much better attacks and gear or something and then make regular Wyches our quasi-tarpit unit that can do adequate damage but not really take on tougher units. I imagine Wyches taking on easier prey like guardsmen and tau fire warriors (non-melee dedicated units) and coming out on top but then pulling double duty as tarpits against things you don't want to have shooting at you. Bloodbrides would go around killing the things Wyches have locked down and in general being a much more fearsome melee unit (not as good of AP as Incubi but much more attacks). This may give both units a purpose on the table that makes them similar and recognizable but still have unique roles.

I hope we get actual bloodbride models. They could be like normal Wyches but bigger and have 2 wounds.

The Shredder wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

For me DL's never worked... ever, i've made lists with 50+ DL's before to make them work... and for some reason they never work for me.

Dark Lances worked for me . . . when I switched to Corsairs and could get bunches of them at a very low cost.  

Then again, I also had Meltas and Scatter Lasers in abundance.


Out of interest, when you stopped using Dark Lances, what did you use to destroy vehicles?

Before i went to Corsairs. Haywire.

I always used CTC with 5 HWB, 2 Scourges with 4 HWB, 6 Venoms with a Blaster and Syberite + HWG.

My normally list was: 2k

x2 CADS

Lhaen + venom Cad1
Lhaen + venom Cad2

Warrior, Syb, Blaster, HWG + Venom Cad1
Warrior, Syb, Blaster, HWG + Venom Cad1
Warrior, Syb, Blaster, HWG + Venom Cad1
Warrior, Syb, Blaster, HWG + Venom Cad2
Warrior, Syb, Blaster, HWG + Venom Cad2
Warrior, Syb, Blaster, HWG + Venom Cad2
Scourge, x4 HWB Cad1
Scourge, x4 HWB Cad2
Reavers x3 CC Cad1
Reavers x3 CC Cad2
CTC, x5 TL-HWB x4 Chain Flails

It worked great for me, the Scourges/Reavers were 1 hit wounders most the time, the troops got close onto Obkectives (we always played ITC or objective heavy games if not ITC) the CTC would pop vehicle and charge dudes inside, normally only worked 1 or 2x a game but they always worked well for me.

Not at 2k I take out a couple Syberites and a troop.
Once i got into Corsair's it was Hornets and Warp Hunters for AT.


Edit: Note:
MT TL-HWB and 8 more HWB, they did amazing things for me, i play in a HEAVY vehicle meta, either free rhinos from SW, or Eldar with stupid D-cannon Tanks, then where was Skitarii/Admech walkers crap or triple Storm Raven wing BA lists.

Against WK I just ignore and kill everything else and try to win by objectives.

Quote :

I hope we get actual bloodbride models. They could be like normal Wyches but bigger and have 2 wounds.

With 18" Splinter Pistols with -1AP..."Bloodbrides" is such a bad name too..maybe call them "Primus Wyches"

Optimus prime wyches

TheBaconPope wrote:

Quote :

I hope we get actual bloodbride models. They could be like normal Wyches but bigger and have 2 wounds.

With 18" Splinter Pistols with -1AP..."Bloodbrides" is such a bad name too..maybe call them "Primus Wyches"

The new Primaris marines are so vanilla I actually wish they were more like the Stormcast Eternals they were modeled after.

Honestly, how hard is it to put a Bolt-pistol on a Storm Shield? Free up their right hands for a second gun or a melee weapon.

If it were up to me, Interceptors would have Storm shields with a bolt pistol built in, then a choice of either a hand flamer, a plasma pistol, a melta pistol, or a storm bolter for their right hands. Now on top of that they get +1 wounds, attack, and leadership. Make them up close and in-your-face-terceptors.

Anyone else wondering if hand flamers will be useable in CC?

The Shredder wrote:

"In the craft of murder, Wyches have no equal."

No one is equally disappointing ?

I "stumbled" upon THIS ARTICLE about new DE on FLG while obsessively refreshing tabs in search of fresh rumors.

I'm not sure how much he has participated in the play testing, but he mentions poison specifically in regards to the Wych pistols, so either poison is still a thing, or he is assuming too much.
He also points out how the already mentioned changes are going to make DE more fun to play.
Like actually getting an armor save, or having a reason to take DLs on infantry etc.
An uplifting read. Unless of course, you are hard wired to think of any article that is optimistic about GWs DE releases as alternative news.
Can't really blame anyone for that I suppose.


PS:
the other stages of trust are:
2: cautious (caustic) optimism - Suuure everything is going to be sooo much better
3: optimism ( the shortest stage ) - Hmm... the other factions rules does not look too bad. Maybe ours also will be...
4: Confidence - Nope! I'm now confident that GW actually hates DE players.

I fail to see the point in complaining about units before we have point values.  Even if wyches don't have any rules that we haven't seen yet, if they cost less I'd still find myself using them more.  I'm not seeing how dark lances got worse either.  Sure, you might have lost that 4% chance to blow it up in one shot (smaller chance if they had any kind of save) but it will take less shots on average to take down vehicles.  For example, it comes to about 5 shots to kill a dreadnought now while the average used to be 9 to take away all his hull points.

I'm rather excited that multiple units can fit inside a transport too.  I used to be more of a venom spam kind of guy, but now I can see myself taking incubi and wyches in a single raider and boosting it up the table.  The fact that the vehicle can eat the overwatch so the units get in safely will help wyches dramatically because it used to be they couldn't get into combat.  Still more to be revealed about transports too.  For all we know, we can even fight from inside the transport (we can at least fire pistols).

I see some of you guys complaining about vehicles getting to attack, but remember this isn't the vehicles swinging its barrels at enemies.  It's a lightning fast vehicle slamming through a crowd with hooks, chains, and blades strapped to the hull.  MOD EDIT - lets be respectful and mindful of our references please. Massaen