Durable Dark Eldar

Jimsolo wrote:

I think that minimizing deployment to go first is a luxury that DE cannot afford in this edition.

So much truth in that statement. DE still do MSU very well.

Spreading threat across the board is still a strong point and durability can come from numbers.

Jimsolo wrote:

I think that minimizing deployment to go first is a luxury that DE cannot afford in this edition.  

The best choices/builds we have available are all pretty unit heavy.  Even the armored core gunline I've been kicking around comes in at 13 units in a 2k list, which isn't super likely to be securing first turn that frequently.

I think our best options right now are to build strong lists and then examine how many units they have.  If they are likely to go last (and many will), then we should just try to work that into our battle plans.

Agreed.
I have found my 2K lists come in at around 13ish "drops" as well.

DE really are a MSU army and cannot rely on getting 1st turn.

I never run any venoms, only Raiders (and other boats, ofc), and i'm going first at least some of the time (not VS many Imperium elite armies, but against hordes definitly), and seeing the punch we are able to deliver at 36" it helps a lot.
I never liked Venoms anyway. I find Raiders far cooler.

Are you running two five man squads in your raiders or taking ten man squads?

Does it seem like you lack posion shooting?

I'm running squads of 10, with Dark Lances as heavy weapons.
I can't convince myself to use more poison weaponry : against big targets, Dark Lances are better. Against medium targets, Dissies are better. Against small targets... poison sucks anyway.
So my army has 3 squads that deliver 18 shots each at close range, and i've found it enough to finish out some infantry that were mostly destroyed by the 8 dissies i bring with me (3 raiders, 1 ravager, 1 RW).

I do struggle against T3 spam, but i think i would struggle the same way with poison weaponry (that stinks on ice vs T3).

Poison does not stink that badly against t3, at least it is a lot better then dissies/darklances if you dare to go in close.
dissi ravager: 185 points for 9 shots 6 hits: 4 wounds (46 per wound)
venom with kabalites: 115 points for 12 shots 8 hits 4 wounds 2.67 after saves (43 points per wound) which is only just better, but if you go in close range your effectiveness increases a lot to 29 points per wound, more then one and a half times as effective as the ravager, against orks/zombies etc it becomes even better compared to the dissies
Or if you are willing to be insane: and dare to go for footslogging kabalites under 32 points per wound at long range and under 16 points per wound at short range. Which is very similar to guards with their lasguns.

Poison stinks against T3. It doesn't stink as bad as dissies and DL (of course. Pointing a dissie on guards is throwing diamonds to pigs), but it stinks, because you're literally shooting a lasgun, and lasguns suck.
When i play against guards, i don't shoot them (we have no efficient weapon against them). I engage them.

So indeed, if i had more poison i'd manage better against T3. But i wouldn't be able to table Necrons in 2 turns. And more importantly, i would not have half the anti-tank ability my playstyle offers me.

My playstyle is like pretending i'm the Amiral of a huge pirate fleet. I shoot my huge cannons at everything while laughing hysterically, THEN i board the survivors. I love playing the long-range game that my dissies and DL allow me to play. I don't enjoy closing up to shoot splinter weaponry before turn 3-4.
That's also why i hate Venoms. They don't feel like part of a fleet at all (to me). They don't feel "boat-like". But that's my own personal choice. I'm not stating that Venoms are bad, i just get goosebumps when i see my fleet of Raiders/Ravagers deployed

Mppqlmd wrote:

Poison stinks against T3. It doesn't stink as bad as dissies and DL (of course. Pointing a dissie on guards is throwing diamonds to pigs), but it stinks, because you're literally shooting a lasgun, and lasguns suck.  

As a IG player, I take offence at that, sir!

I'll have you know that I take great pride in the effectiveness of my laser pointers.  

Mppqlmd wrote:

When i play against guards, i don't shoot them (we have no efficient weapon against them). I engage them.

I guess one benefit of the new rules is that you can at least shoot your splinter rifles first and then charge (unlike in 7th when you had to choose one or the other).

Mppqlmd wrote:

So indeed, if i had more poison i'd manage better against T3. But i wouldn't be able to table Necrons in 2 turns. And more importantly, i would not have half the anti-tank ability my playstyle offers me.

Could you post your list?

Mppqlmd wrote:

My playstyle is like pretending i'm the Amiral of a huge pirate fleet. I shoot my huge cannons at everything while laughing hysterically, THEN i board the survivors. I love playing the long-range game that my dissies and DL allow me to play. I don't enjoy closing up to shoot splinter weaponry before turn 3-4.

I actually really love this philosophy. I'd like to try it but I don't think I have enough non-Venom vehicles.

Also, please tell me that your Warlord has a tricorn hat.

Mppqlmd wrote:

That's also why i hate Venoms. They don't feel like part of a fleet at all (to me). They don't feel "boat-like". But that's my own personal choice. I'm not stating that Venoms are bad, i just get goosebumps when i see my fleet of Raiders/Ravagers deployed

That's interesting. I'd never thought about Venoms in that manner before.

My lists tend to vary, but here's what i enjoy to field when i play, say, a 1500 game (i'm on holiday, so no index, i'm trying to remember points cost)
- 3 boats with dissie on the boat, 10 kabalites with dark lance (215 ?*3)
- 5 scourges with DL : 150 (sometimes more copies of this squad)
- RWJF with dissies : 175
- Dissie ravager (180)
- Archon/Haemy (60/80ish)

And i have 300 points for flavor (more scourges, more ravagers, trying out mandrakes, bikes or hellions. I like testing). Let's say i add scourges and some mandrakes to fill.

So i would end up with 11 DL and 8 dissies, and i still have 54 poison shots when closing in, + the mandrakes.

With 8-9 drops, i'm going first against some, and second against others. But i don't feel like i'm always going second.

PS : I'm sorry about your Imperial Guards. It's nothing personal, really.

Mppqlmd wrote:

My lists tend to vary, but here's what i enjoy to field when i play, say, a 1500 game (i'm on holiday, so no index, i'm trying to remember points cost)
- 3 boats with dissie on the boat, 10 kabalites with dark lance (215 ?*3)
- 5 scourges with DL : 150 (sometimes more copies of this squad)
- RWJF with dissies : 175
- Dissie ravager (180)
- Archon/Haemy (60/80ish)

And i have 300 points for flavor (more scourges, more ravagers, trying out mandrakes, bikes or hellions. I like testing). Let's say i add scourges and some mandrakes to fill.

So i would end up with 11 DL and 8 dissies, and i still have 54 poison shots when closing in, + the mandrakes.

With 8-9 drops, i'm going first against some, and second against others. But i don't feel like i'm always going second.

Hmm, that's both interesting and pleasantly surprising because I actually have all the models to try that list myself. Awsome.

Now all I need is a replacement for my 7th edition Corsair Prince and I'll be a happy pirate.

Mppqlmd wrote:

PS : I'm sorry about your Imperial Guards. It's nothing personal, really.

I'm just kidding, it's all good.

Yo-ho, a pirate is free, you are a pirate !

Mppqlmd wrote:

So i would end up with 11 DL and 8 dissies, and i still have 54 poison shots when closing in, + the mandrakes.

With 8-9 drops, i'm going first against some, and second against others. But i don't feel like i'm always going second.

I maybe looking at raiders again after this. Lance and dissie fire are potent and having a better chance at first turn would be nice. It seems most of my lists have been over 10 drops and I'm expecting to take second turn.

Oh, Mppqlmd, one question regarding your pirate list - where do your HQs go?