Wave Serpent vs. Raider

Always astounded at the discrepancy in power btwn the two for a difference of ~15-30 points. Better movement, carrying capacity, weaponry, armor, add-ons, and wounds.

Why...one might come to believe GW doesn't give some factions a second thought! I could have probably just left this thread at the Topic title for the vast majority of the Dark City's population.

I fully anticipate an underwhelming codex by the standard of a stand-alone faction with a strong *nudge* for Dark Eldar players to incorporate CWE and/or Quins in to be effective. "We gave you Ynnari! An opportunity to round out your forces!"

*Venting completed*

Not that I dont agree with you......but we have three things going for us...
1. Open topped. NOT having to drop out troops for them to fire is a big thing, especially with transports more difficult to kill in this edition
2. Invul save! saving 1/3rd of the shots coming at you is good!
3. Assault Dark Lances. Bright lances still have the penalty for moving and firing, ours do not, so we can push forward (or back away) and still fire at full effect

Aschen wrote:

Not that I dont agree with you......but we have three things going for us...
1.  Open topped.  NOT having to drop out troops for them to fire is a big thing, especially with transports more difficult to kill in this edition
2. Invul save!  saving 1/3rd of the shots coming at you is good!
3. Assault Dark Lances.  Bright lances still have the penalty for moving and firing, ours do not, so we can push forward (or back away) and still fire at full effect

For sure. The invulnerable save is super nice. But keep in mind, Wave Serpent has access to:

1. Crystal Targeting Matrix: A model with a crystal targeting matrix does not suffer the penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving when targeting the closest enemy unit. (5pts)

2. Spirit Stones: 6+ FNP (10pts)

3. Star Engines: When a model with star engines Advances, add 2D6" to that model's Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of D6". (10pts)

4. When a model with star engines Advances, add 2D6" to that model's Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of D6". (10pts)

I would absolutely take those plug-and-play options (or, any plug-and-play options, really...I mean Shock Prow is a real game changer and all...)

Their options simply give them versatility to adjust that we do not have. Frankly, I think the payoff of having 3 more wounds, +2" to standard movement, T7 (as opposed to T5...unless your Haemonculus is hoofing it next to the vehicle acting like an anchor, then you can enjoy T6!) over-shadows our open-topped rule. I think there is merit to being able to shoot with the guys inside, but the inability to shoot for overwatch, etc...makes it a rough sell comparatively.

I think open topped is a big deal...we just dont have the units to make it real effective (i.e. fire dragons, dark reapers) Its much less scary with just a bunch of poisoned shots with no ap coming out... also, raiders are t6, not t5 (t5 are venoms)

1. How often is the model you want to shoot at going to be the closest?...though not bad for just 5pts

2. 6+fnp very comparable to 5+ invul.

3. I think this should be standard for our vehicles movements. we are Dark Eldar after all, we should be able to boost faster!

4. You just repeated yourself

I think more options would be wonderful for raiders. And like I said... I dont disagree with you... I think wave serpents are amazing. I just dont think raiders are that bad...

Aschen wrote:

I think open topped is a big deal...we just dont have the units to make it real effective (i.e. fire dragons, dark reapers) Its much less scary with just a bunch of poisoned shots with no ap coming out... also, raiders are t6, not t5 (t5 are venoms)

1.  How often is the model you want to shoot at going to be the closest?...though not bad for just 5pts

2.  6+fnp very comparable to 5+ invul.

3.  I think this should be standard for our vehicles movements.  we are Dark Eldar after all, we should be able to boost faster!

4.  You just repeated yourself

I think more options would be wonderful for raiders.  And like I said... I dont disagree with you... I think wave serpents are amazing.  I just dont think raiders are that bad...

Yes, I completely left it out of my response, but open topped IS amazing...assuming the load out of the units firing is good too! Our raiders aren't bad, but they're also not at an appropriate caliber for an army predicated upon utilizing their transports more heavily than any other army in the game.

From what I have seen, I have been pretty impressed with the armies that have a codex now, I think most of them are formidable on their own. I want the 8th Edition Tyranid codex treatment!

We are probably going to get the 8th edition dark eldar codex treatment ( a level of neglect and nerfs so severe they made a name up just to describe how abysmal it is )

Open topped is fantastic for exactly two units. Warrriors and Trurborn. For everything else it is at best a nice perk. For an assault platform the wave serpent is way better.
Ironically, both factions would benefit immensely from a flat transport swap.

Yes

FuelDrop wrote:

Open topped is fantastic for exactly two units. Warrriors and Trurborn. For everything else it is at best a nice perk. For an assault platform the wave serpent is way better.
Ironically, both factions would benefit immensely from a flat transport swap.

@Aschen Raiders are toughness 5, the same as venoms. Unless I'm missing something obvious, but T5 in my digi codex. Ravagers are T6 though.

DE needs an option (free) for raider to take away open top and give it +1T and +3wounds, making it a "coven" unit.


Yes we are suppose to the raiders and glassy, but we also take what the job needs, Coven would take a modifier vehicle over a weaker one for many reasons.

amishprn86 wrote:

DE needs an option (free) for raider to take away open top and give it +1T and +3wounds, making it a "coven" unit.


Yes we are suppose to the raiders and glassy, but we also take what the job needs, Coven would take a modifier vehicle over a weaker one for many reasons.

Then we also need a cult one with +4 move and 3 extra attacks XD

|Meavar wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

DE needs an option (free) for raider to take away open top and give it +1T and +3wounds, making it a "coven" unit.


Yes we are suppose to the raiders and glassy, but we also take what the job needs, Coven would take a modifier vehicle over a weaker one for many reasons.

Then we also need a cult one with +4 move and 3 extra attacks XD

I see no reason that the Venom couldnt get this. Each vehicle transport get an optional change.

With several tourneys and quite a few games behind me and even after trying codex CWE, I have come to the conclusion that i would not change Raider for WS like EVER! They could be tad cheaper, but srsly if someone plays DE as CWE I can understand the allure of WS, but well... that is not how it is supposed to be played. Wave serpent is bulky model and I know from experience it is difficult to maneuver if the terrain is just a little dense. You can easily swallow overwatch with it while taking up very little of the unit's front so your CC specialists can get maximum attacks off. And that CC ability? I know many people dont even know it exists, but yea... you might want to give it a try. Locking units in CC while being able to Fall Back and shoot the lance without penalty? People do not appreciate how AMAZING Raiders (and Venoms) are since lot of their greatness is not apparent from reading the datasheets...

Open-topped just needs to allow embarked models to fight in close combat.

That would help us out tremendously.

aurynn wrote:

With several tourneys and quite a few games behind me and even after trying codex CWE, I have come to the conclusion that i would not change Raider for WS like EVER! They could be tad cheaper, but srsly if someone plays DE as CWE I can understand the allure of WS, but well... that is not how it is supposed to be played. Wave serpent is bulky model and I know from experience it is difficult to maneuver if the terrain is just a little dense. You can easily swallow overwatch with it while taking up very little of the unit's front so your CC specialists can get maximum attacks off. And that CC ability? I know many people dont even know it exists, but yea... you might want to give it a try. Locking units in CC while being able to Fall Back and shoot the lance without penalty? People do not appreciate how AMAZING Raiders (and Venoms) are since lot of their greatness is not apparent from reading the datasheets...

But if your not playing shooting DE your wasting points, they are taxing DE for not playing shooting lists.

aurynn wrote:

With several tourneys and quite a few games behind me and even after trying codex CWE, I have come to the conclusion that i would not change Raider for WS like EVER! They could be tad cheaper, but srsly if someone plays DE as CWE I can understand the allure of WS, but well... that is not how it is supposed to be played. Wave serpent is bulky model and I know from experience it is difficult to maneuver if the terrain is just a little dense. You can easily swallow overwatch with it while taking up very little of the unit's front so your CC specialists can get maximum attacks off. And that CC ability? I know many people dont even know it exists, but yea... you might want to give it a try. Locking units in CC while being able to Fall Back and shoot the lance without penalty? People do not appreciate how AMAZING Raiders (and Venoms) are since lot of their greatness is not apparent from reading the datasheets...

I think you might need to elaborate a little as you seem to be suggesting that Raiders are better than Wave Serpents because of their relative size and their close combat ability, neither of which are factors that are ever likely to make any noticeable difference in a game. The cc ability of a Raider, whilst admittedly better than that of the Serpent, is still negligible (0.58 MEQ including the shock prow) and when compared to the increased speed, toughness, wounds, armour save, serpent shield, armament, transport capacity and vehicle upgrades I have to say that anyone stating the Raider to be the superior vehicle really needs to back that statement up with some facts.

The WS is well most survivable than the Raider, even tho the Raider has a 5++ the WS has a -1 to damage and get get -1 to hit along with a 6+++.

Its honestly a much better vehicle for transporting, something DE doesnt have.

I feel Raiders and Venoms honestly just needs to be 20pts cheaper each, every 4 means we get a 5th for free as right now and i'd rather have more fragile than less but better ones.

Allowing open topped transports to move, then disembark would be a big big boost for combat units and make riding open topped worthwhile. A Rapid Disembark ability which has been mentioned many times on here already.

A combo of the 2 ideas might work well.


"When this vehicle charges, the embarked unit may disembark up to 3" at the end of the charge phases and be placed wholly within 1" of enemies models, they are treated as having charged. This can not be preformed if the vehicle just arrived from reserves, fellback, or was in combat the previous turn"

Honestly? I think another weak point for the raider is our lack of units that can take advantage of it. We have Warriors and Trueborn, as our other dedicated shooty units can deep strike.

CWE on the other hand could use it for anything from Dire Avenger bladebarges to D-scythe death machines to Dark Reaper Broadside Bombardments to Fire Dragon Inferoboats, and a bunch of other stuff combined.

Like it or not the majority of our infantry are melee focused, and our signature transport does nothing for them.

EDIT: Upon reflection, literally ANY OTHER ARMY except chaos demons could make better use of raiders than we do. Tau? Hell yeah. Orks? Burna Boy Drivebys! Guard? Special Weapon Teams, meltavets, the fun never stops! Space Marines? Can you say Sternguard Combi-weapon spam? Chaos? Havocs, Chosen, Thousand Sons. 'Nids? Just Gaunts with high end weapons would do the job. Either open topped needs to start doing something for our assault troops or we need more spammable special weapons to make use of the damn things!

Yep, like i said, GW taxes DE for eveything and no other army gets tho taxes.

amishprn86 wrote:

Yep, like i said, GW taxes DE for eveything and no other army gets tho taxes.

It's called "Trickle Down Codex Design"

Count Adhemar wrote:

I think you might need to elaborate a little as you seem to be suggesting that Raiders are better than Wave Serpents because of their relative size and their close combat ability, neither of which are factors that are ever likely to make any noticeable difference in a game. The cc ability of a Raider, whilst admittedly better than that of the Serpent, is still negligible (0.58 MEQ including the shock prow) and when compared to the increased speed, toughness, wounds, armour save, serpent shield, armament, transport capacity and vehicle upgrades I have to say that anyone stating the Raider to be the superior vehicle really needs to back that statement up with some facts.

Not really suggesting that it is "better" in the general sense. But given how I use them and how I have seen WS used the two boats are very different in practical application. If you use Raider as unit protection only, WS is without question more suited to the task. But I don't, so I said and I meant it that they are better "for me". I get that saying it like that is not... well quantifiable, but its hard to explain I am putting up some batreps which may clear up the issue. The already posted one with DA has some great Raider moments and the next one (prolly will be posted tonight) with Necrons too. Sacrificing a hurt Ravager so Nightbringer cannot assault next turn, giving me a VP? Worth it. People usually try to win by rolling the biggest dice volume. I use my Raiders to either make my enemy roll as little dice as possible by movement, assaults, etc since that does not hurt my dice volume.

However I will try to explain in more detail. It happened to me more than once that I was able to put Raider into tactically advantageous position or assault a thing that was hiding among the terrain just because its sleek and WS would not fit there. Difference between needing to put WS atop the terrain or having a Raider on the ground where it blocks can be huge too.

Another huge factor in my evaluation is that I do not expect nor need the Raider to survive. However I do not have much trouble with them not surviving even if I willingly go second more often than not. Therefore I dont miss the survivability of WS. I don't miss the capacity of WS as I do not really want a HQ with the normal dudes. The shield could make my opponent just shoot something else like my planes, which I do not want at all. Armament - they add 1 lance to my list thats kewl.

Also I usually bring a Ravager or two with my Raiders so they are generally much lower in my opponent's target priority. The CC potential is, as you say, small by itself, but since I try to assault with everything whenever advantageous and possible, they do fine for me. They force units to fall back and not shoot. 3 Raiders, 1 Ravager and 4 Venoms biting into something T3, low AS. CAN do their share of damage and add to my AI potential (tis what? 3-4 marines dead and rest forced to fight or fallback? kewl!), while lowering enemy's potential or limit their movement. T2 or T3 is where most of my games are decided. Well that and Deployment ofc. The small assault front footprint is often invaluable for me due to this.

Its the same with Reaper vs. Ravager. Or Fire Prism vs. Ravager. I don't even consider using Reaper or Prism coz Heavy Weapons. Most other armies would kill for the option of having a Raider. They will also kill for the option of having WS as it IS very good. That does not mean Raider is bad. WS is amazing, reliable tank. Raider is amazing troll boat and I love them for it.

If they were cheaper, we wouldnt have having this discussion at all. No one would care if its not very survivable when we can field 5 instead of 3.

But when its comparable (aka close in cost) to a much more survivable one with fire power also (9 S6 is pretty good) then you have a problem.

What would be "cheap enough"?
Would possible stratagems we might get make it worth its points?
EDIT: I mean I could use if it were say 20 pts cheaper, but its easy to overdo it actually.