Shooting rule check

If one model in a unit of 10 Marines can only see a single model of another unit Eldar
Can all the marines shoot the eldar?

I believe they can.

From p179:
2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.

Those rules allow the Eldar unit to be selected as a target because a model from the shooting unit can see the target, provided they are in range.

I think it should be that each model picks a legitimate target based on its range and visibility, but I think the rules explain otherwise.

I have just had a re-read of this section, and realised I got this wrong (I'm surprised noone called me out on it).

The rules quote again is:
"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

When the rule refers to "that unit" it is referring to the enemy unit. The rule is then written for a single model in the shooting unit.

So in order to target an enemy unit a model must have range and line of sight to at least one model in the enemy unit. In your example, that means only one Marine has a model from the relevant enemy unit visible, so only that model can target the Eldar.

Kantalla wrote:

I have just had a re-read of this section, and realised I got this wrong (I'm surprised noone called me out on it).

The rules quote again is:
"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model."

When the rule refers to "that unit" it is referring to the enemy unit. The rule is then written for a single model in the shooting unit.

So in order to target an enemy unit a model must have range and line of sight to at least one model in the enemy unit. In your example, that means only one Marine has a model from the relevant enemy unit visible, so only that model can target the Eldar.

No one called you out b.c they dont want to be called out themselves. OR they are so used to old editions and fast dice that they dont know themselves.

Edit: Page 181 Allocate Wounds, it does sat "the choosen model does not have to be within range or visibility." to take a wound...

Kantalla wrote:

The rules quote again is:
"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.".

To shoot, a model must see at least 1 ennemy model.

amishprn86 wrote:

Edit: Page 181 Allocate Wounds, it does sat "the choosen model does not have to be within range or visibility." to take a wound...

The target player then can choose any model from the unit to allocate the wound, even if it's out of range and sight.

Hoh, I didn't comment because i didn't see this thread until now. That's some good info.

I may have also fallen to my own folly and played this incorrectly then... hmmmm

Yeah some of core rules people play wrong
Hence my query
Cheers

Just to expand on my answer and reasoning, because I don't think I was entirely clear above.

The different interpretation comes down to what the subject of "that unit" is in the second sentence of the rule.

Perhaps as a holdover from previous editions, initially I read "that unit" as the shooting unit. It did seem strange when the rest of the sentence is described on a single model basis. As an aside, that interpretation would allow weapons that are out of range to fire, provided one model had range and line of sight.

However, looking at the rule more clearly, the sentence up to that point is talking about the enemy unit, so the only sensible subject for "that unit" is the enemy unit. If the subject is the enemy unit then a target is valid if the enemy unit is in range of the weapon being used, and visible to the firing model.

Casualty removal is several steps in the shooting process after selecting targets. Provided you can select a unit as a target, there is nothing stopping the casualties going out of range or line of sight.

What about, for example, 2 space marines can see 1 dark eldar. Is that enough for the whole unit of space marines to shoot or could you argue that they can only take 2 shots since only 2 can see?

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Those two could target the Dark Eldar, and the rest of the unit would need a different target. Depending on weapons they could have more than two shots of course.

The way I read it is that each model in the shooting unit must be in range and LOS of at least one model in the target unit. As long as that is the case then the shooting unit can then wipe out the target unit, even if some models in the target unit are out of range and/or LOS.

But should RaW not each shot be done seperately?

I know I am playing the advocate of the devil here.

It get's slightly muddy here, at least for me.
1) (Chosing attackers) pick a unit
2) (chosing targets) A model must be in range of the weapon being used (seems singular)
3) (chosing weapon) 1 type of weapons, declare how the units shots are split before rolling dice
4) (resolve Attacks) one attack at a time

The problems comes that if you say you only pick the target in step 2, but just a model from the unit with the weapon (even though chosing weapon is the next step so RaW you can even use the rocket launcher to target with your flamer) has to be in range, thus once you have the enemy as a target everyone can shoot at them with all weapons as long as 1 person is in range.
The alternative is that you admit this makes no sense (which every sane person does), (un)fortunately after choosing weapons you shoot each attack individually and thus would it be so strange that each individual shot has to be in range (of course the enemy can take dead models away from further away first).

That to me doesn't make sense. How can the rest of a unit with no LOS and out of range take out an enemy unit?
The way iv played is if half the unit has LOS and range then that half can shoot.

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Its suppose to be model by model, even fast dice rules says this.

You'll see this with Tau players and its common for them to have a unit with Markerlights (well common if they dont want to Commander spam.

They then will roll each markerlight 1 by 1 so each other markerlight will gain the benefits (1 and 5 on the chart are very important, specially with 5+ to hit models)

amishprn86 wrote:

Its suppose to be model by model, even fast dice rules says this.

You'll see this with Tau players and its common for them to have a unit with Markerlights (well common if they dont want to Commander spam.

They then will roll each markerlight 1 by 1 so each other markerlight will gain the benefits (1 and 5 on the chart are very important, specially with 5+ to hit models)

This. And nothing prevent your opponent to ask you to throw your dices 1 by 1, then after the first casualty, decide to remove the only model in line of sight, wasting the remaining of your shooting. It is legit.

Actually that is not legit.

The process is:
1) Choose a unit to shoot with
2) Choose targets
3) Choose ranged weapon
4) Resolve attacks

If at step 2 you chose a target (for example a unit where only one model was visible), that unit is locked in as your target throughout the process. That means even if there are no longer models in range or line of sight, you can (or must) resolve your attacks against that unit, and the casualty removal rules don't restrict who can be removed.

Kantalla wrote:

Actually that is not legit.

The process is:
1) Choose a unit to shoot with
2) Choose targets
3) Choose ranged weapon
4) Resolve attacks

If at step 2 you chose a target (for example a unit where only one model was visible), that unit is locked in as your target throughout the process. That means even if there are no longer models in range or line of sight, you can (or must) resolve your attacks against that unit, and the casualty removal rules don't restrict who can be removed.

When at step 2, you chose a target, it is locked in as your target. But I don't see what make you conclude you can still shoot if you don't have a target anymore.

I guess then you could say others died from ricochet bullets or shrapnel

Sent from Topic'it App

Kantalla wrote:

Actually that is not legit.

The process is:
1) Choose a unit to shoot with
2) Choose targets
3) Choose ranged weapon
4) Resolve attacks

If at step 2 you chose a target (for example a unit where only one model was visible), that unit is locked in as your target throughout the process. That means even if there are no longer models in range or line of sight, you can (or must) resolve your attacks against that unit, and the casualty removal rules don't restrict who can be removed.

But you have to see in order to shoot, and when you choose to shoot you must pick 1 model at a time, if model 1 shoots and kills the only visible model in the number, you now check visibility and range on the next model, you no longer meet the requirements.

amishprn86 / dumpeal - not quite correct. Let me use an example to explain:

Imagine we have a unit of 10 Tactical Marines with a Heavy Bolter. Five of the Marines can see a single Mandrake (including the Heavy Bolter) and the others are either out of range or line of sight of the Mandrakes, but can see a Raider.

The shooting process goes like this:
1) Choose a unit to shoot with - Tactical Marines selected
2) Choose targets - Heavy Bolter and four Bolters target the Mandrakes, the remaining five Bolters target the Raider
3) Choose weapon - select Heavy Bolter
4) Resolve attacks - lets say it kills 2 Mandrakes including the one visible
Return to step 3) Choose weapon - select Bolter which is already targeting the Mandrakes
4) Resolve attacks - roll to hit/wound/save/etc

Because the targets are chosen before resolving the attacks, the Mandrakes in this example are still the target for the four Bolters even if when you get to roll the dice for them there is nothing in view anymore. That is different to the previous edition, which could cause some confusion.

Here is the problem with RaW.

In step 2 you only exclude units you are not allowed to shoot at, you do not say who will shoot at what.
Which is the problem. You don't decide how to split your shots untill step 3, but here is no mention of range and sight. So after having been able to declare a unit as a target you can shoot with everything at the unit (even guns not in range and los). Or you agree this makes no sense and here ad another check for range and sight. Then you are houseruling it already and there is no reason why to do it here and not in the next step when you actually shoot. Just sloppy writing.
They should have made it completely 1 unit targeting, or 1 model targeting, not this mixture where they go from 1 model to 1 unit to 1 model again.

I'm not really seeing the issue there.

In step 2 you do declare which models are shooting at which targets, so you do decide before step 3.

If you declare targets before selecting a weapon or rolling any dice, then the rules work fine.

The problem comes that in step 2 it speaks of the model and the weapon being used.

Then in step 3 you again pick how much shots will go against each target, but now looking at your complete unit. Either this step is completely unnecesary (since you already picked your targets and weapon in step 2) or you can now once something is a target from step 2 also pick it with other models since it specifically mentions you can pick the same targets
quote:"If a model has serveral weapons it can shoot all of them at the same target or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before dice are rolled, ..."
Thus it mentions:  if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. So you pick the targets in step 3, despite the name of step 2 and 3.

Now don't get me wrong, I never played it at such, but since each shot goes individually (since you pick both targets at an individual level (step 2) and work out shooting 1 attack at a time (step 4) I read it that step 3 is just there to mention that you must have declared before rolling which shots go at which units.
Thus once someone is out of range since people in the unit died he is out of luck if you did target that unit with him.

|Meavar wrote:

The problem comes that in step 2 it speaks of the model and the weapon being used.

Then in step 3 you again pick how much shots will go against each target, but now looking at your complete unit. Either this step is completely unnecesary (since you already picked your targets and weapon in step 2) or you can now once something is a target from step 2 also pick it with other models since it specifically mentions you can pick the same targets
quote:"If a model has serveral weapons it can shoot all of them at the same target or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before dice are rolled, ..."
Thus it mentions:  if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. So you pick the targets in step 3, despite the name of step 2 and 3.

Now don't get me wrong, I never played it at such, but since each shot goes individually (since you pick both targets at an individual level (step 2) and work out shooting 1 attack at a time (step 4) I read it that step 3 is just there to mention that you must have declared before rolling which shots go at which units.
Thus once someone is out of range since people in the unit died he is out of luck if you did target that unit with him.

It's how I think it is. It brings some tactical headache. Let's say my 10 kabalites target a unit of 20 guards, but I only see, says, a plasma guy. I decide to shoot at that target. The guard will have to decide if he wants to sacrifice his plasma to stop the shooting or if he remove much more guards to save his plasma.

|Meavar wrote:

Then in step 3 you again pick how much shots will go against each target...

That's the bit I don't think is correct.

You have allocated your shooting by picking the targets in step 2. Step 3 is simply saying I'm resolving this weapon next, before rolling the dice for Step 4.

From dumpeal's example, that means taking the plasma guy doesn't stop the casualties further into the unit, so it is unlikely the plasma guy is gone unless you finish off the unit.