Question about razorwings.

Hey guys,

Hope.im putting this in the right place. After taking a long hiatus from 40k I'm hopping back in with both feet. Have always liked dark.eldar so I went and snatched up a copy of the new codex. I scored 2 of the 2016 start collecting boxes and will be getting a 2018 start collecting to build my force around.

My question is what is the benefit of the ravager over the razorwings? Is it purely the movement aspect ie. Razorwing has limited mobility in the sense of forced pivot and straight line move, or is there something else I am missing? It just seems like a better buy to me. For 5 point more you loose a dark Lance but gain -1 to hit and the flexibility of razorwing missles. I'm thinking of buying either 2 razorwings or 2 ravagers to expand on what I mentioned above but I can't decide, and would kind of like to convert some ravagers in the future because I am not crazy about their models. Thanks for any help.

A big reason Ravagers are popular right now is because they work much better than RWJFs with the Writ of the Living Muse artifact. You get 3 of them, stick an Archon with that artifact in the middle and you've got 27 Disintegrator Cannon shots that reroll 1's to hit and wound. RWJFs can't stay in the Archon's aura.

Also yeah, it's nice not to have to deal with supersonic movement shenanigans on your heavy weapon platforms. It all depends on your personal playstyle though.

As what toffee said, however what makes rwjf a viable option is their speed and versatility with missles. Those necro toxin missles are absolutely fantastic at clearing hordes and to boot you can still fire some lances or disses at other more suitable targets. Further to this, the - 1 to hit makes them difficult to take down, especially if you employ the lightning reflexes stratagem. Not saying ravager aren't great, but personally my experience of running a void raven with two rwjf is very versatile and useful.

RWJF is more my style. I like the ravager, but if you don't have a lot of units around it is very susceptible to deep strikers. RWJF will get 1 round of shooting by the opponents deepstrikers, then is gone. And as was mentioned, the -1 to hit is very helpful.

Last game I played had 2 RWJF and 1 VRB and it was very devastating to my opponent. Love using the flyers, never had issues with the movement and turning arcs. Stagger them, try to move them as a squadron.

Our Flyers are top notch - some of the best in the game imo. That being had, they can not score objectives, and if they are all you have left, then you lose. (Boots on the ground or some such rule)

With the rule of 3, and also just for flavor, I like to run 2 and 2 of each. RWJ are very versatile and can be amazing at character sniping. Ravagers have slightly higher damage potential. I am not a fan of the Black Heart Spearhead of three ravagers and a Writ Archon. I find it far, far to static a formation, and not actually that useful. So I don't see RWJ not being as easy to get the buff that big a deal.

Faitherun wrote:

I am not a fan of the Black Heart Spearhead of three ravagers and a Writ Archon. I find it far, far to static a formation, and not actually that useful. So I don't see RWJ not being as easy to get the buff that big a deal.

I also prefer RWJ (mainly because most of my army is usually cult).
That being said, why do you think the spearhead is so static? They usually move around 10 inch each turn? Which to me does not feel as really static, even if it is nowhere near the 20+ move of the RWJ.
I usually feel like the RWJ are more limited in movement, since I often feel like I have to fly in boxes if I want to stay in range of my preferred targets, (part of that might be a bit of a temperary problem since because of an upcoming campaign people now play a lot of smaller games on square tables)

Faitherun wrote:

I am not a fan of the Black Heart Spearhead of three ravagers and a Writ Archon. I find it far, far to static a formation, and not actually that useful.

Every single tournament winning list so far seems to disagree with your assertions.

And 8"+ re-rollable D6" move with a 6" aura is not static at all. He can easily keep up with the Ravagers.

The big movement of the flyers can be a detriment too, since you can position models in such a way that it's forced to fly off the table or crash.

@Jmeavar that sounds like a problem with the table size, my experience of flyers on 4x4s sucks.

I don't have a compelling argument why I think an Air Wing would be better than the Black Heart Spearhead (I think the tournament table results speak for themselves), but I definitely prefer to be puzzling out flyer movements and much prefer their aesthetic to Ravagers.

To help clarify, I am not saying the BH spearhead is static in that it must stay still or slow... I'm actually really pleased with our characters ability to keep up on foot.

My issue is keeping all three ravagers within a 6 nice bubble. I am not saying it's not viable. But if forces me to put all my big guns in one section. And, sometimes I find I am sacrificing placement of the model to keep it in the bubble.

Is it worth it, I don't know. I've played 3 games with, a d 3 without, and I personally like it better without. We have so many good relics, I sometimes prefer running a different one.

Also, for what it's worth, I run my 3 ravagers 2 dis, 1 dl.

Honestly I feel like the Living Muse is a fringe benefit of the Black Heart Spearhead. The 6+++, Agents of Vect, Labyrinthine Cunning and getting a bonus command point for those Ravagers that you were already taking anyway seem more significant to me.

Faitherun wrote:

To help clarify, I am not saying the BH spearhead is static in that it must stay still or slow... I'm actually really pleased with our characters ability to keep up on foot.

My issue is keeping all three ravagers within a 6 nice bubble. I am not saying it's not viable. But if forces me to put all my big guns in one section. And, sometimes I find I am sacrificing placement of the model to keep it in the bubble.

Is it worth it, I don't know. I've played 3 games with, a d 3 without, and I personally like it better without. We have so many good relics, I sometimes prefer running a different one.

Also, for what it's worth, I run my 3 ravagers 2 dis, 1 dl.

Even if you have the Writ of the living muse and your 3 ravagers, nothing prevent you from splitting them for 1 turn, for a strategical strike. You'll lose your benefit for 1 turn, but you could take your opponent off-guard.

Faitherun wrote:

To help clarify, I am not saying the BH spearhead is static in that it must stay still or slow... I'm actually really pleased with our characters ability to keep up on foot.

My issue is keeping all three ravagers within a 6 nice bubble. I am not saying it's not viable. But if forces me to put all my big guns in one section. And, sometimes I find I am sacrificing placement of the model to keep it in the bubble.

Is it worth it, I don't know. I've played 3 games with, a d 3 without, and I personally like it better without. We have so many good relics, I sometimes prefer running a different one.

Also, for what it's worth, I run my 3 ravagers 2 dis, 1 dl.

I run my ravagers like that as well, and the Writ is my secondary relic in the list (first usually being either vexator mask (if supported by coven) or a succubus relic (if by cult), so I can decide during deployment if I need it or if the table and opponent require me to separate my units.  The 72-point archon can still continue to provide re-rolls to two ravagers ~13" apart, while generating CPs via LabCunning.

But sure, I get it. Flayed Skull Ravagers make for surprising assassins with their speed and cover ignoring abilities.

withershadow wrote:

Faitherun wrote:

I am not a fan of the Black Heart Spearhead of three ravagers and a Writ Archon. I find it far, far to static a formation, and not actually that useful.

Every single tournament winning list so far seems to disagree with your assertions.

And 8"+ re-rollable D6" move with a 6" aura is not static at all. He can easily keep up with the Ravagers.

The big movement of the flyers can be a detriment too, since you can position models in such a way that it's forced to fly off the table or crash.  

He can also use fire and fade if you give him a pgl or blaster. Which gives him an extra 7"