Ynarri Drukhari Brigades - trash or genius?

TeenageAngst wrote:

I did pretty well with a brigade at last year's NOVA so it's not like I'm just rambling.

Would you mind sharing the list or a rough idea of the list to your fellow Archons?

Always interested in seeing a working brigade.

IMO Ynnari based brigades are bad, why when we can do 3 battalions that is more efficient.

Let me ask you this, WHY are you trying to do a Ynnari Brigade? What is the point?

I dont mean it in a bad way, i mean it in a tactical way, do you need 1 battalion? Do you need CP? If its just to see if you can, well yeah you can but its terrible. We dont have a reason to use brigades when we can take 3 detachments.

I'm holding out hope that they remove the Ynnari tag from the Battle Brothers rule so we can mix aeldari within an Ynnari detachment. Now that they cant access strats and spells and the keywords are changed up I cant see why it would cause a problem and would Ynnari list building tenfold.

I've listened to the two most recent podcasts about Ynnari from Splintermind and what I'm hearing is;
- You need to maintain decent CP so you need Troops. The troops you want are Wyches (DE) for most synergy.
- You want jetbikes; Skyweavers and Shining Spears in particular (I can see a semi large squad of each working really well)
- You need some heavy melee hitters (Wraithblades) backed up by some ignores over watch (Banshees)
- You still need a strong firebase to ensure you get the kill and can soften units up for your Ynnari (DE ravagers, CWE fire prisms)

So all in all our lists look something like
Y. DE Batallion full of Wyches and Ravagers for fire base
Y. CWE Vanguard for Blades, Banshees and Bikes
Y. H patrol for a big blob of Troupe and a big blob of bikes

That would be hard to fit together even without 600pts of Ynnari character tax, but it's easily possible within a single Ynnari batallion if they allow detachments to be based on Ynnari

I just want the Yncarne to be cheaper now he lost an important ability..

Same, I'm still gonna play him a lot til I cast judgement but he really is too expensive for what she brings.

Rather than changing the Blood Brothers rules, I'd personally prefer that they drop the Ynnari character requirement.

Or, at the very least, make it that your army needs to include at least one Ynnari character, rather than each individual detachment.


[Also, hydranixx, I'll answer your question later when I've got more time.]

Gizamaluke wrote:

I'm holding out hope that they remove the Ynnari tag from the Battle Brothers rule so we can mix aeldari within an Ynnari detachment. Now that they cant access strats and spells and the keywords are changed up I cant see why it would cause a problem and would Ynnari list building tenfold.

I've listened to the two most recent podcasts about Ynnari from Splintermind and what I'm hearing is;
- You need to maintain decent CP so you need Troops. The troops you want are Wyches (DE) for most synergy.
- You want jetbikes; Skyweavers and Shining Spears in particular (I can see a semi large squad of each working really well)
- You need some heavy melee hitters (Wraithblades) backed up by some ignores over watch (Banshees)
- You still need a strong firebase to ensure you get the kill and can soften units up for your Ynnari (DE ravagers, CWE fire prisms)

So all in all our lists look something like
Y. DE Batallion full of Wyches and Ravagers for fire base
Y. CWE Vanguard for Blades, Banshees and Bikes
Y. H patrol for a big blob of Troupe and a big blob of bikes

That would be hard to fit together even without 600pts of Ynnari character tax, but it's easily possible within a single Ynnari batallion if they allow detachments to be based on Ynnari

I've been thinking the same thing since the release. With the new Ynnari release GW had the unique opportunity to finally allow an all-Eldar list that isn't just pure cheese. What we got is a bland alternative to what could already be done for the most part. Personally, I would have even tried to allowe mixing transports between factions and attempt to balance the faction based around these parameters.

I can't say that I'm disappointed because I didn't expect much but it is a missed opportunity nonetheless.

Edit: Honestly, it seems to me that GW was sick of people calling out "Eldar Soup" and wanted to make a safe bet with this release.

Gizamaluke wrote:

Same, I'm still gonna play him a lot til I cast judgement but he really is too expensive for what she brings.

I also play nids, and its the cost of 3 Broodlords, 3 Broodlords will out preform it every game, heck 2 might even do that (they are cast 1 deny 1, 2+ to hit, 6 attacks, S5, -3 for D3 6's are -6 for flat 3, 115pts) 3 of them is 345pts (so 8pts more, but you get 1 more cast and deny) sure yo dont get the 6+++ aura, but you do get the fearless aura, 6+++ is nice, but the Yncarne wont be around your army enough to count at in, at least IMO.

I tested it out last week, 3 Broodlords are better for sure lol. Yes yes yes yes, i know its 1 army vs another, but its the idea, ifyou are spending 300+ points on 1 model it needs to be able to do the work, compare him Gman, he is only 60pts more and he is much better, better aura, can come back, etc...

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Rather than changing the Blood Brothers rules, I'd personally prefer that they drop the Ynnari character requirement.

Or, at the very least, make it that your army needs to include at least one Ynnari character, rather than each individual detachment.


[Also, hydranixx, I'll answer your question later when I've got more time.]

The Tax wouldnt be bad if the 2 (Yncarne and Visarch) were a bit cheaper, The Visarch is way to costly still, he should be in the 90pt range, he is basically an Archon or an Autarch and both of them are better than he is b.c they have options, he doesnt, he is only 5 str 5 attacks that wants to hunt down characters... yeah GL with that. I've been trying to hunt down characters with a Character hunting Archon for 10yrs (SI was collecting souls via Soul Traps) and i have only killed 8 with him, granted it is easier in 8th than in older editions due to characters as their own units now, but still its hard.

Yeah I do look at the Yncarne and think "I could have had 3 Talos and 5 Wracks for the price of you" or even "You're only 20pts off a Knight Gallant". But I love the model, I've painted it and my friends are sick of seeing the Talos so I guess I'll beat them over the head with him instead. It really does feel to me that Ynnari is the hard mode of eldar lists now and I'm not sure there is any Diamond in the rough so to speak.
I think the Yncarne should be 220pts and Visarch 90pts for what it's worth but even then when you want to cherry pic the stuff that doesnt suffer from being Ynnari out of 3 books whilst maintaining a decent (8+) amount of cp you end up being taxed too much.

If you could mix the elves you could take something like;

Yvraine
Autarch skyrunner

3×10 wyches

10 banshees
10 wraithblades

6 skyweavers with glaive and haywire
6 shining spears

3 ravagers

~1850pts, 8CP

Under 1850pts so you could get a transport for the banshees, add more spears, add another HQ or bump up the wyches to deepstrike.

hydranixx wrote:

Let's say both DE and all Aeldari - interested in your top picks across all brands of space elf.

In terms of units that are actually better as Ynnari, I think the list is *very* short:
- Incubi (Access to more and better buffs.)
- Scourges (Access to buffs period.)
- Autarchs (Depends on the role to some extent but I think Ynnari has better combat stuff for them. e.g. the Hungering Blade alone is probably better than both of the Eldar Power Sword Artefacts combined.)
- *Maybe* Archons (Depends what you want out of them, but for anything other than Ravager-buffers I'd probably lean towards Ynnari.)

The main issue is that Ynnari is so narrow in scope (being almost entirely melee-oriented), but isn't particularly good at the one thing it focuses on and doesn't have a whole lot of synergy with Eldar stuff. The +1 to hit already overlaps with Power From Pain (as does the Yncarne's aura), and is redundant on all characters. So Dark Eldar is basically having to rely on their Psychic Powers to be better than its army-bonuses. Given the opportunity costs involved in just taking Ynnari, it's unlikely to be worth it. Meanwhile, Eldar are expected to trade their Psychic Powers for a new set that are basically outright worse. e.g. there is literally no advantage to Unbind Souls over Doom. Harlequins might be the best hope for Ynnari as they're at least melee-focused, but even then they're giving up a lot of Stratagems and such that are far better tailored to their units.


But anyway, let's assume that we're hellbent on running Ynnari. I'm going to split them into 3 categories: Good Units with little to no synergy (stuff like Ravagers that are probably worth running even though Ynnari doesn't actually do anything for them); Units With Some Synergy (these are units that can benefit from some aspects of Ynnari but not others - e.g. Wych units get minimal use of Soulburst because of the overlap with PfP but can still benefit from the Psychic Powers); and finally Units with Good Synergy (these are ones that can benefit from multiple Ynnari abilities).  

Units with little/no synergy that are worth including regardless:
- Ravagers
- Razorwings
- Dark Reapers
- Possibly Kabalites
(There might be more Eldar ones but I don't know enough of their units to comment.)

Units with some Synergy:
- Archons
- Wyches (Psychic Powers only)
- Reavers (Psychic Powers only)
- Beastmasters (Psychic Powers only)
- Beasts, esp. Razorwing Flocks (Psychic Powers only)
- Skyweavers (No help for their shooting)
- Wraithguard
- Wraithknight (with Scattershield)

Units with good synergy:
- Autarchs
- Farseers, Warlocks etc. (But only if you want to use more of the Ynnari powers)
- Shadowseers
- Incubi
- Scourges
- Wraithblades
- Howling Banshees
- Striking Scorpions
- Harlequin Troupes
- Shining Spears
- Wraithlord
- Wraithknight (without Scattershield)

Just to be clear, the latter categories are just units that can make use of the Ynnari bonuses. It doesn't necessarily make them good units.

In terms of my personal picks, the one thing Ynnari lacks entirely is movement bonuses. So if I was going to narrow the list down further, I'd probably pick only those units that are inherently fast (either through wings/jetbikes or via abilities like Rising Crescendo). This would leave us with:
- Autarchs
- Farseers
- Wraithseers
- Shadowseers
- Reavers
- Beastmasters
- Beasts
- Skyweavers
- Scourges
- Howling Banshees
- Harlequin Troupes
- Shining Spears

You'll note that Harlequin Troupes are the only Troop Choice on this 'revised' list. And this is basically what I referred to before when I talked about prioritising optimal units over Command Points. I was actually thinking more of Eldar detachments than DE ones and wondering if I'd be better off going for something like an Outrider detachment (with Shining Spears), rather than trying to make up a Battalion and spending close to 200pts on troops that gain virtually nothing from being Ynnari. Hell, even with Harlequins I'd probably favour a Skyweaver Outrider.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Edit: Honestly, it seems to me that GW was sick of people calling out "Eldar Soup" and wanted to make a safe bet with this release.

The 'Battle Brothers' rule stems from GW's misunderstanding of what "soup" actually is. Mixed codices in one detachment was never a real problem, since doing that negated all subfaction bonuses. The Battle Brothers rule didn't actually change how soup is played in competitive settings in any significant way.

Yeah, GW doesnt care about the term or if players are "Souping" its actually been a benefit for them, they are not changing rules to stop soup.

krayd wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Edit: Honestly, it seems to me that GW was sick of people calling out "Eldar Soup" and wanted to make a safe bet with this release.

The 'Battle Brothers' rule stems from GW's misunderstanding of what "soup" actually is. Mixed codices in one detachment was never a real problem, since doing that negated all subfaction bonuses. The Battle Brothers rule didn't actually change how soup is played in competitive settings in any significant way.

For a while Ynnari lists were definitely taking advantage of mixing all the Eldar factions in single detachments. That probably says more about the old Ynnari than anything else, but...

Gizamaluke wrote:

Yeah I do look at the Yncarne and think "I could have had 3 Talos and 5 Wracks for the price of you" or even "You're only 20pts off a Knight Gallant". But I love the model, I've painted it and my friends are sick of seeing the Talos so I guess I'll beat them over the head with him instead. It really does feel to me that Ynnari is the hard mode of eldar lists now and I'm not sure there is any Diamond in the rough so to speak.
I think the Yncarne should be 220pts and Visarch 90pts for what it's worth but even then when you want to cherry pic the stuff that doesnt suffer from being Ynnari out of 3 books whilst maintaining a decent (8+) amount of cp you end up being taxed too much.

If you could mix the elves you could take something like;

Yvraine
Autarch skyrunner

3×10 wyches

10 banshees
10 wraithblades

6 skyweavers with glaive and haywire
6 shining spears

3 ravagers

~1850pts, 8CP

Under 1850pts so you could get a transport for the banshees, add more spears, add another HQ or bump up the wyches to deepstrike.

Out of interest I built this list but split into 3 detachments with the cheapest possible filler options and it came to 2415pts, almost 600pts in tax.

krayd wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Edit: Honestly, it seems to me that GW was sick of people calling out "Eldar Soup" and wanted to make a safe bet with this release.

The 'Battle Brothers' rule stems from GW's misunderstanding of what "soup" actually is. Mixed codices in one detachment was never a real problem, since doing that negated all subfaction bonuses. The Battle Brothers rule didn't actually change how soup is played in competitive settings in any significant way.

It was useful when factions were Index-only (as there was no disadvantage to mixing armies).

But you're right, the main issue stems from a mixture of shared CPs and a lack of any disadvantage to taking Allies (so you're free to cherry-pick the best units from different armies with no penalty whatsoever).

I actually feel like allies are in a pretty good place now. Eldar soup doesn't necessarily seem any better than going mono-faction any more, and Imperial soup is still only better than mono-faction stuff because of how outrageously effective Guard are (and how much they turbocharge stuff like Smash Captains and Knights).

Gizamaluke wrote:

Gizamaluke wrote:

Yeah I do look at the Yncarne and think "I could have had 3 Talos and 5 Wracks for the price of you" or even "You're only 20pts off a Knight Gallant". But I love the model, I've painted it and my friends are sick of seeing the Talos so I guess I'll beat them over the head with him instead. It really does feel to me that Ynnari is the hard mode of eldar lists now and I'm not sure there is any Diamond in the rough so to speak.
I think the Yncarne should be 220pts and Visarch 90pts for what it's worth but even then when you want to cherry pic the stuff that doesnt suffer from being Ynnari out of 3 books whilst maintaining a decent (8+) amount of cp you end up being taxed too much.

If you could mix the elves you could take something like;

Yvraine
Autarch skyrunner

3×10 wyches

10 banshees
10 wraithblades

6 skyweavers with glaive and haywire
6 shining spears

3 ravagers

~1850pts, 8CP

Under 1850pts so you could get a transport for the banshees, add more spears, add another HQ or bump up the wyches to deepstrike.

Out of interest I built this list but split into 3 detachments with the cheapest possible filler options and it came to 2415pts, almost 600pts in tax.

He is talking about if we had the ability to fully mix factions. Its 1 detachment. EDIT reworded

amishprn86 wrote:

Gizamaluke wrote:

Gizamaluke wrote:

Yeah I do look at the Yncarne and think "I could have had 3 Talos and 5 Wracks for the price of you" or even "You're only 20pts off a Knight Gallant". But I love the model, I've painted it and my friends are sick of seeing the Talos so I guess I'll beat them over the head with him instead. It really does feel to me that Ynnari is the hard mode of eldar lists now and I'm not sure there is any Diamond in the rough so to speak.
I think the Yncarne should be 220pts and Visarch 90pts for what it's worth but even then when you want to cherry pic the stuff that doesnt suffer from being Ynnari out of 3 books whilst maintaining a decent (8+) amount of cp you end up being taxed too much.

If you could mix the elves you could take something like;

Yvraine
Autarch skyrunner

3×10 wyches

10 banshees
10 wraithblades

6 skyweavers with glaive and haywire
6 shining spears

3 ravagers

~1850pts, 8CP

Under 1850pts so you could get a transport for the banshees, add more spears, add another HQ or bump up the wyches to deepstrike.

Out of interest I built this list but split into 3 detachments with the cheapest possible filler options and it came to 2415pts, almost 600pts in tax.

He is talking about if we had the ability to fully mix factions. Its 1 detachment. EDIT reworded

It was my math, and yeah I know. First list was if we could mix aeldari as Ynnari, the 2400pts was if we wanted to take the same list currently so had to take extra elites, hqs and troops to be battle forged in order to show how much of a tax we are currently paying with Battle Brothers as Ynnari.

hydranixx wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

I did pretty well with a brigade at last year's NOVA so it's not like I'm just rambling.

Would you mind sharing the list or a rough idea of the list to your fellow Archons?

Always interested in seeing a working brigade.

Just make a list with everything you want and nothing you don't, obsessions be damned. You end up saving about 300 points across the whole thing in wasted units.

The version I'd like to try:


++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [107 PL, 2,000pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute
. Ynnari

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 76pts]: Huskblade, Splinter pistol

Succubus [4 PL, 60pts]: Archite Glaive, Blast Pistol

The Yncarne [17 PL, 337pts]

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [2 PL, 47pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Wyches [2 PL, 49pts]
. Hekatrix: Agoniser, Splinter pistol
. 3x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler

Wyches [2 PL, 49pts]
. Hekatrix: Agoniser, Splinter pistol
. 3x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler

Wyches [2 PL, 49pts]
. Hekatrix: Agoniser, Splinter pistol
. 3x Wych
. Wych with Wych Weapon: Shardnet and impaler

+ Elites +

Beastmaster [2 PL, 40pts]: Agoniser

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi
. Klaivex: Klaive

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi
. Klaivex: Klaive

+ Fast Attack +

Razorwing Flocks [2 PL, 24pts]
. 2x Razorwing flock

Razorwing Flocks [2 PL, 24pts]
. 2x Razorwing flock

Reavers [3 PL, 57pts]
. Arena Champion
. 2x Reaver

Scourges [5 PL, 92pts]
. 4x Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges [5 PL, 92pts]
. 4x Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Haywire blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [7 PL, 140pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

Ravager [7 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon, Disintegrator cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 81pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Shock Prow

Raider [5 PL, 81pts]: Disintegrator cannon, Shock Prow

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 65pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

++ Total: [107 PL, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I don't think ynnari brigade is the optimal way to play the army, but I do want to try it out. With a grip of CPs, the Incubi stratagem is no problem.

Incubi are still incubi - Ynnari or not they're still like 6 points over costed :s

The more I think about it the more I feel discouraged from trying to force a Ynnari Brigade, I think a dual Battalion structure offers enough CP, and you have more options to mix it up - such as a Ynnari detachment + regular Dark Eldar detachment for the models that want to retain obsessions, or just happen to be Coven.

hydranixx wrote:

Incubi are still incubi - Ynnari or not they're still like 6 points over costed :s

I know they're over costed, but that strat makes them better than they are in pure Drukhari. They don't benefit from obsessions there, but can here.

On top of that, multiple sources of re-roll wounds, and they can actually blend stuff the way they were always meant to.

hydranixx wrote:

The more I think about it the more I feel discouraged from trying to force a Ynnari Brigade, I think a dual Battalion structure offers enough CP, and you have more options to mix it up - such as a Ynnari detachment + regular Dark Eldar detachment for the models that want to retain obsessions, or just happen to be Coven.

To be honest, especially for casual games, I'm more discouraged by the lack of variety than the actual competitiveness.

There's just so little meaningful choice in each of the slots.

e.g. for as good as Ravagers are, it would be nice to have some actual options in that slot.

If you could use court and beast units in slots the Brigade would be hands down the best way to run this army. Instead of saving 300 points in worthless units, you'd be saving about 500-600 in optimizing non-essentials.

TeenageAngst wrote:

If you could use court and beast units in slots the Brigade would be hands down the best way to run this army. Instead of saving 300 points in worthless units, you'd be saving about 500-600 in optimizing non-essentials.

Oh I absolutely agree with you there.

I think the worst part is that Beasts and the Court not taking up detachment slots is worded as if it was somehow a bonus, as opposed to the huge detriment it actually is.