Dark Eldar Competitiveness

Yes, if they build a list specifically to face us they can give us a run for the money (not own us, GK can build a list specifically to face us and own us, Smurfs can manage 'competitive'). They can even field general TAC competitive lists and give us occasional runs for the money depending which one of their TACs they go with.

That doesn't make them an above average codex.

Also, the list you describe as so scary for us...well, that's sort of what Wolves and Blood Angels do to face us...only they do it better, can shoot more, and are harder to kill. Or IG, who will put down more armor, better armor (spamming AV12 not AV11 is *big*), and way more shooting.

I can beat those lists - I can also beat that Space Marine list, and I know which list I would consider easier to defeat. I'm not saying it's a bad codex, I am saying it is, at best, middle of the road, and in my opinion a bit below middle.

12 Scoring is hardly building to kill you, it's the Vanilla Codex's strengths on many of the other lists still.

Blood Angels and Wolves can't do it nearly as well as Vanilla - SW can't get 12 Scoring (6 coming at you, 6 sitting in the back) and BA don't want to)

I don't think it's a easy feat putting down 60 Marines, 6 Rhinos, and a few MM bikers hiding behind said Rhinos/Cover, especially because even Venomspam with 9 Venoms only kills 1/2 Marines per Venom per shooting phase. That's 18 dead a turn if the math's perfect and we know Venoms won't last all game.

Edit:

Here's Stelek's build I was talking about:

Quote :

2000 Pts – Space Marines Roster

1 Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts (Null Zone; The Gate of Infinity)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

9 Tactical Squad, 225 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Dozer Blade; Storm Bolter)

9 Tactical Squad, 220 pts (Meltagun; Multi-melta)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

9 Tactical Squad, 225 pts (Meltagun; Plasma Cannon)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

9 Tactical Squad, 225 pts (Meltagun; Plasma Cannon)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

9 Tactical Squad, 225 pts (Meltagun; Plasma Cannon)
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

1 Attack Bike Squad, 50 pts (Multi-melta x1)

1 Attack Bike Squad, 50 pts (Multi-melta x1)

1 Attack Bike Squad, 50 pts (Multi-melta x1)

1 Predator, 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

1 Predator, 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

1 Predator, 85 pts (Heavy Bolter (each side))

Total Roster Cost: 2000

So that's 5 Rhinos with dual melta, 3 Preds, 3 attack bikes, 10 scoring units, and 3 rifle dreads, oh and Null Zone to laugh at Venoms who try to get into Blaster range. (So it had MORE than I remembered, even worse, lol)

But I'm mostly afraid of this list is because everything is expendable. Unlike our EL or HVYs, which we need to output enough damage to get good results vs even standard AV. FST can try but it's hard.

That is also a list we drastically outrange - if the Dreads go down he's obligated to come to us and the Rhinos will never pull that off functionally. That leaves some Heavy Bolters (problematic - but not really that bad) the Bikes (our Venoms will need something to do, and they can kill bikes easy, even behind cover) and then it's just a question of if we can pop 6 Rhinos...

I'm not saying it's a "lol, leafblow them off the table, tololololol!" But I also don't see that as remotely a hyper dangerous list to what I would bring to a 2000 point tournament. If you think that list is hyper dangerous probably you're bringing too many blasters and not enough lances would be my belief, or maybe not enough Wyches to ever kill Marines in assault.

DoA or Long Fang spam would also eat that army easy. So would IG. So would Necron Scarab Spam.

My soul cries at the complete and utter lack of flamers...

I just played a Necron Storm Lord/Scarab Spam list and I guarantee once people start running into it lists like the above will not happen. At 1863pts (civil war themed tourny practice lol) he had 9 Spiders, 30 Scarabs, Storm Lord, and 4 Scoring units. A few crypteks and the guy that flies around swinging his warscythe. Besides night fighting the entire game this guy had 48 Scarabs by turn 2.
We can kind of handle it. I think it will change the way we build our lists as far as we'll take more 5 Wrack w/ Liquifier squads as opposed to 5 Warriors w/ Blaster squads. (When you play scarab spam, every unit in your army becomes an assault unit. I've jumped out with every Trueborn, Wrack, Warrior, and Wych in my army, shot two 19+ scarab units to hell, then assaulted with everything I had. It was glorious!)
Marine Razorspam can't. Or if they combat squad all their units. They won't be able to see through nightfighting, and their vehicles are actually more vulnerable to the scarabs than ours are. They just don't have the numbers or the amount of attacks to cut through one 57 wound unit, much less 3.
But as far as Marines go, I've never been able to beat my buddy's Iron Hands. Lots of Dreads, drop pods, and lascannons & missile launchers. Thor665 what do I do????

astorre wrote:

But as far as Marines go, I've never been able to beat my buddy's Iron Hands. Lots of Dreads, drop pods, and lascannons & missile launchers. Thor665 what do I do????

Send me a PM with your list and basic tactics (and maybe also an idea of his list) and I'll offer you some pointers.

Thor665 wrote:

That is also a list we drastically outrange - if the Dreads go down he's obligated to come to us and the Rhinos will never pull that off functionally. That leaves some Heavy Bolters (problematic - but not really that bad) the Bikes (our Venoms will need something to do, and they can kill bikes easy, even behind cover) and then it's just a question of if we can pop 6 Rhinos...

Agreed. Do not forget about those Preds and their utter sadness at our lances. Their AV 13 Armor counts for nothing at the face of our lances.

Main threats are essentially the Preds and Dreads. Anything else is just a little annoyance. Once that is done, the pain begins and the closer they get to a Dark Eldar army, the more painful it becomes for them as the blasters and splinter weaponry would deal with the rest, and just for their comeuppance we can just send in whatever assault unit you want to assault them to be the flavor of the day.

To be honest I would rather face this army than an IG army any day of the week. Space Wolves and Grey Knights I can handle, but IG.....man that one will always be a great challenge for me.

I'd rather face IG then Psyrifle spam with Psybacks - but thankfully that GK list is sorta 'meh' versus most armies so I don't have to see it too often.

Yeah, Chimera gunline...oh gawds, I hate dealing with that.

Yeah, I fail to see how Vanilla Marines are a problem for Dark Eldar. I tried a Space Marine army against them, and aside from the Libby's awesome Null Zone, they definitely didn't have much going for them. (Black Templars are a different story, Blessed Raiders and Tankhunting Termies hurt)

I think Dark Eldar are a very well balanced army, but there is curious lack of "rock" units. Dark Eldar don't have anything close to an Assault Terminator squads, for example. They also rely on spammed missile launchers for firepower, and can't get higher level anti-tank outside of a few select units.

So they tend to offer strong, balanced firepower, but nothing that stands out as seriously strong. Nothing with high armor, nothing that just screams "Kill me or I'll flatten you!". In a way, that's what I like about them, there's lots of redundancy and target priority is hard for the enemy.

I've definitely found that Dark Eldar do not like battles of attrition, they don't have staying power. It's not like playing Space Marines where you can slug it out endlessly turn after turn.

Arrex wrote:

Yeah, I fail to see how Vanilla Marines are a problem for Dark Eldar. I tried a Space Marine army against them, and aside from the Libby's awesome Null Zone, they definitely didn't have much going for them.

Vulkan's effect on the normally so-so meltabunker squad is damn huge. It's like there's a 24" no-fly zone around them. So within this narrow context, I'm going to have respectfully disagree.

I didn't say Vulkan. Vulkan isn't Vanilla, he's Salamanders chapter. See, I'm an old fart, so I still think of Salamanders as separate. (They had their own entry in Codex Armageddon)

Vulkan + Librarian with Null Zone would be TERRIFYING.

Arrex wrote:

I didn't say Vulkan. Vulkan isn't Vanilla, he's Salamanders chapter. See, I'm an old fart, so I still think of Salamanders as separate. (They had their own entry in Codex Armageddon)

Vulkan + Librarian with Null Zone would be TERRIFYING.

Isn't it like the only competitive build that we are seeing in major tournaments for the Vanillas these days? The other combinations are slowly dissapearing or are uncommon. Honestly a 10-man infiltrating Assault Terminator Shrike squad will do wonders against all those parking lots (despite it having a big gigantic bullseye on it).

SM Bikers do well but our poison makes them cry

I think it's time for a 40K reboot, it's gotten very stagnant in terms of what works and what doesn't.

Have you heard these rumors about a 6th edition that will change what works and what doesn't?

Thor665 wrote:

Have you heard these rumors about a 6th edition that will change what works and what doesn't?

LMAO, true, true...

Then, let's shut it all down until it becomes relevant again.

This was a very interesting thread to read because I'm definitely bringing my raiders to my local 'ard boys this year. I did pretty well my first 3 games with them, but sadly I have a lot of lost time to make up for as between school/parenting/work/training I have little time to game. But the bottom line is that I've played Blood Angels, Black Templars, Guard, and now Dark Eldar and DE are by far the most fun to play.
I was thinking of switching over to mainly raiders instead of mixing raiders and venoms for the tournament I'm playing in Jan.

Well IMO we are scewed in 6th unless lances get a fix and our currently overcosted transports become harder to kill.

Both GK and Crons ignore supression/ lances and vomit eleventy billion str 7+ shots on you, cover is useless and so is Fnp.

Ill be happier once DE get some hammer to match their glass , I'm sick of the rose tinted brigade peddaling their BS, look at the GK book now back to the DE , yeah .....

There are certain Marine match ups that are unfavorable to DE. Dealing with Blessed Raiders and Tank Hunting Terminators in Black Templars is just a broken prospect. Same with the S5 storm bolters and unshakeable sniping dreads in the GK books.

However, both of those armies pay the price for being optimized against light armor; neither of them usually carry much in the way of ordnance or ranged anti-MEQ weapons.

Necrons? The jury is out on those, currently, with the price of transports for them being somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 bucks (twice that of other factions), I'm seeing lots of foot necrons. In larger games, hordes of foot soldiers is suicide against a mobile army that tends to unload an obscene amount of splinter fire and just might have a Razorwing waiting to fly onto the table. That's not even mentioning what happens if you decide to charge them with a decent CC unit (Incubi might really start to pay off here): You're virtually guaranteed to win combat on the charge, and when you do, those Crons are going to fail their leadership check. When this happens, the opposing player shouldn't even bother with a dice roll, just collect those robots and put them back in their army transport.

Sorrowshard wrote:

Well IMO we are scewed in 6th unless lances get a fix and our currently overcosted transports become harder to kill.

Or there's enough of a meta shift to toss back towards infantry blobs or AV13+ builds, either of those shifts would also do us a world of good without actually changing our rules. Our current dilema is just that a lot of the top tier armies spam Str 6-7 shooting in such horrid amounts that it tends to inflict egregious harm on us before our own hammer can go to work.

I stand by our codex being competitive. I can certainly wish it was more cheddar filled like some of the other books, but we're light years ahead of some and significantly better than most still.

Hey Thor, long time

I don't think we compete well with the latest rubbish from Wards pen, not at all , I nthe grand scheme of things we are ok , but we are on the downward slide Gk is horrible , i feel how nid players must feel VS my DE , not fun, not fun at all.

Bleh, just bitter I have always felt DE were a bit on the offensively weak side for their cost/fragility.

I'm very glad that the DE codex wasn't sponsored by Velveeta. It is extremely difficult for 40k players to point a finger at our codex and cry OP (and therefore cheapening our victories). It is pretty easy for people to attribute a GK win to their codex... I know this because GK was my first army. In my defense however, I knew I was going to collect GK before I even saw their dex because I liked the models so much.

After playing them for awhile, I decided I wanted two things from my army. I wanted to have the ability for options and the need to use tactics to win games. GKs don't really meet either of these requirements. DE have both in spades.

Sorrowshard wrote:

Bleh, just bitter I have always felt DE were a bit on the offensively weak side for their cost/fragility.

I kinda agree with this. The old dex was more overall killy.

We lost killy and gained defensive hijinks in the new dex. It was a rough wash strategically but it wasn't everything I could hope it to be. I miss the super Archons

I miss dual-blaster troops that could be put in Diss Raiders

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