40k 9th Editon

I just read a rumor that flying units will not be able to shoot after falling back anymore can someone confirm this?
If this is true then its another slap in the face for us big time and makes flying more of penalty since everyone and their mother has some kind of bonus vs fly

DevilDoll wrote:

I just read a rumor that flying units will not be able to shoot after falling back anymore can someone confirm this?
If this is true then its another slap in the face for us big time and makes flying more of penalty since everyone and their mother has some kind of bonus vs fly

I haven't seen this rumour but I'm not sure it'd be too surprising; vehicles being able to fire in combat is pretty adequate compensation and does prevent fly from being the free get-out-of-jail card that it is currently.

Not denying that it nerfs us, but, well, a lot of 9th's rules seem to be doing that already.

I disagree the ability of our vehicles to be able to disengage and shoot was in tune with the flavor they were once trying to present that we are fragile but fast and deadly and made us somewhat unique... Literally every reveal so far just takes away the fast and deadly part and makes us just a generic bore fest..

If this rumour is true (?) it’s going to upset a lot of Tau players. Unless of course they get a “special” rule that allows all their Fly Units to ignore it…

I'm going to be brutally honest - I've yet to see even a single change that makes me want to play DE in 9th edition.
- The new detachment rules seem purpose-built to screw our army over. It also doubly screws me over as I'd been working on a Daemon-themed DE/Harlequin army, so that's already dead in the water.
- The ability of our vehicles to fire at no penalty after moving has now been handed to every other race. Presumably GW has given up even the pretence that DE are a mobile army.
- Our already-suffering characters are now dead if they're ever more than 3" from a friendly unit. Boy, that's a fun rule.
- If the above rumour is true then our vehicles and jetbikes can also no longer freely disengage.

I had been looking forward to trying out a multitude of converted models on the tabletop, but it seems they'll be heading straight to my shelf instead. Oh well, maybe Necrons will be more fun in 9th, so I can switch to those instead.

Daemons and DG got honestly a such a stupid large boost from what we have seen now its not even funny.

amishprn86 wrote:

Daemons and DG got honestly a such a stupid large boost from what we have seen now its not even funny.

I'm not too familiar with those armies.

What have they benefited from, specifically?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Daemons and DG got honestly a such a stupid large boost from what we have seen now its not even funny.

I'm not too familiar with those armies.

What have they benefited from, specifically?

-Lots of MC character, including 9w ones like the DP
-Good hordes that don't care to much about being hit with blasts.
-Lots of good melee vehicles with flamers and high rate of fire guns.
-Vehicles that are super cheap (yes they are going up, but 80-130pts now might go up to 100-160pts then, thats still cheap for a T8, 12w, 3+/5++/5+++ vehicle, or a T8, 7w one with fly and 3+/5++/5+++).
-High toughness normally with an army and invul save, many also with FnP.
-Lots of options for blast weapons, stratagems to use more than 1 grenade in a unit.
-Able to teleporting/DSing tricks and summoning (which might change).

As a DE and Quin player, i'm really scared of DG in 9th until i see more information. If i was marines then i wouldn't be scared.

If we see something for anti-tank weapon rules (like in current 8th apoc or older editions) i will be less worried. But for now from what i have seen, ouch they are scary.

amishprn86 wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Daemons and DG got honestly a such a stupid large boost from what we have seen now its not even funny.

I'm not too familiar with those armies.

What have they benefited from, specifically?

-Lots of MC character, including 9w ones like the DP
-Good hordes that don't care to much about being hit with blasts.
-Lots of good melee vehicles with flamers and high rate of fire guns.
-Vehicles that are super cheap (yes they are going up, but 80-130pts now might go up to 100-160pts then, thats still cheap for a T8, 12w, 3+/5++/5+++ vehicle, or a T8, 7w one with fly and 3+/5++/5+++).
-High toughness normally with an army and invul save, many also with FnP.
-Lots of options for blast weapons, stratagems to use more than 1 grenade in a unit.
-Able to teleporting/DSing tricks and summoning (which might change).

As a DE and Quin player, i'm really scared of DG in 9th until i see more information. If i was marines then i wouldn't be scared.

If we see something for anti-tank weapon rules (like in current 8th apoc or older editions) i will be less worried. But for now from what i have seen, ouch they are scary.

Ah. Yeah, that does sound pretty brutal.

I dont see the doom+gloom that the rest of you are seeing.

Coven units are still great at securing the center of the board. Who wasnt putting their HQs behind a blob of Coven Wracks/Grots/Taloi in 8th? These new character targeting rules should not change how we do things very much.

The only real thing that I am worried about at this stage is the point increases.

Also, curious what they will do with the Rapid Fire rule. That Necron 14" gun sounds stupid bad, unless the rapid fire rules change. I dont see them releasing a new weapon that people will avoid. It would not surprise me if we are now rapidfiring at full range (so 36" splinter shots). Thats what my crystal ball says anyway.

I'm with Fisheyes. I don't see the doom and gloom

I play about 6 armies in 40K and I don't think DE are any more or less impacted than the others I play. (though my knights i'm really not sure about yet due to the obscured rules)

I think there is some good and some bad for all armies. I don't actually thing my DE will be any more or less competitive than they currently are.

I also am of the opinion that in 8th ed. at least GW was fairly responsive and fairly quick to make adjustments if they found things weren't working as intended. Until we see the full rules, it's hard to see how they all interplay

That said, I do find we tend to be fairly doom and gloom on this forum on new rules and the impact on us. We had similar discussions crop up in all of 6th, 7th and 8th edition as well as when the DE codex in 8th dropped. So I really didn't expect any different to be honest.

I don't think it's doom, but a lot of 9th's changes so far do seem to be making us relatively weaker in comparison to other armies.

The detachment changes may weaken us, depending on how raiding force works in 9th.
Outside of the Reaper, we don't benefit from the loss of -1 to hit penalties for moving with Heavy weapons.
Enemy vehicles no longer being quite as susceptible to "bad touch" weakens our Cult units especially badly.
-1 to hit modifiers harms us slightly (e.g., no LFR on Razorwing Jetfighters any more).

It's all fairly minor stuff and could be more than compensated for by points changes, but I'm looking at 9th and DEldar look weaker on the whole at the moment.

Silverglade wrote:

I also am of the opinion that in 8th ed. at least GW was fairly responsive and fairly quick to make adjustments if they found things weren't working as intended.    Until we see the full rules, it's hard to see how they all interplay

*Looks at Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising*

Yep, GW were quick to step up and fix... none of DE's issues.

As for optimism, I'll be optimistic when a DE codex actually adds units and options, rather than just removing them.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Silverglade wrote:

I also am of the opinion that in 8th ed. at least GW was fairly responsive and fairly quick to make adjustments if they found things weren't working as intended.    Until we see the full rules, it's hard to see how they all interplay

*Looks at Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising*

Yep, GW were quick to step up and fix... none of DE's issues.

As for optimism, I'll be optimistic when a DE codex actually adds units and options, rather than just removing them.

Thank you for clearly and articulately demonstrating my last point.
(Note: I'm just teasing. Please don't take that personal)

While I agree that LFR paired with the native -1 to hit on the flyers was nice, I think we will adapt well to the new meta. -1 to hit Grots and Wracks are still mean in certain circumstances.

And I do agree that we are loosing some of our flair, but that is A-OK if our points reflect that we are no longer getting benefit from Assault Dark Lances or Dissies.

Also dont forget that we have some of the fastest infantry in the game. Infantry can no longer touch cover, or they are targetable even through a solid wall. We should be able to jump back-and-forth, where slower armies will get screwed.

So far I dont see much change in my DE list for 9th. Ravagers, Grotesques, Drazhar, should all be able to do their thing. My Infantry heavy Guard army on the other hand...

Gunboat kabals ftw?

It would be nice if the ol' Venom Spam was still viable, but that will be point cost dependent.

I see our kabalite warriors going up to 8pts/model, but if the meta shifts towards monsters we will be in a good position

Its not that its doom and gloom at all for me, 9th is looking a lot better than 8th for sure. But i'm not going to deny when i see a meta shift that leaves some of our units behind.

For a Coven army its looking better and better. I'm even painting my Cronos lol.

But for some like my Quins, well so far my quins has gain nothing and only lost things or made it harder to play. (It did gain obscured terrain at least) and my Yncarne is even more less desirable now. As is without anymore rules (note we are missing a lot of rules) I wouldn't play the Yncarne for 200 or more points, i'd say as is its worth 180pts now.

Can you guys explain to me how gunboat Kabals are going to be better with the new edition? I mean, using cover and LoS blocking is a given.

What do you think will happen to our move and shoot without penalty rule now that everyone has it?

fisheyes wrote:

Also dont forget that we have some of the fastest infantry in the game. Infantry can no longer touch cover, or they are targetable even through a solid wall. We should be able to jump back-and-forth, where slower armies will get screwed.

Um. TLOS will still be in effect. A solid wall will still block LOS, assuming that it is solid, and all of your models are behind it. 'Obscured' is just an exception to TLOS, allowing you to shoot at units that you can see through windows and such that are standing up against them, but disallowing you from shooting them if they are, for example, hanging out behind the ruin but otherwise observable via the windows.

Silverglade wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Silverglade wrote:

I also am of the opinion that in 8th ed. at least GW was fairly responsive and fairly quick to make adjustments if they found things weren't working as intended.    Until we see the full rules, it's hard to see how they all interplay

*Looks at Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising*

Yep, GW were quick to step up and fix... none of DE's issues.

As for optimism, I'll be optimistic when a DE codex actually adds units and options, rather than just removing them.

Thank you for clearly and articulately demonstrating my last point.  
(Note: I'm just teasing. Please don't take that personal)

 

Touche, I suppose.




(And no offence taken. )

HERO wrote:

Can you guys explain to me how gunboat Kabals are going to be better with the new edition? I mean, using cover and LoS blocking is a given.

What do you think will happen to our move and shoot without penalty rule now that everyone has it?

Well, we'll still be able to advance and shoot "Heavy" weapons, and shoot into melee without a penalty, since all our Heavy weapons become Assault when vehicle-mounted.

It's not much but it is, in fact, something that we'll have over other armies.

"While I agree that LFR paired with the native -1 to hit on the flyers was nice, I think we will adapt well to the new meta. -1 to hit Grots and Wracks are still mean in certain circumstances."

@fisheyes that isn't a thing I'm afraid. LFR doesn't work on Coven units. It does let you double stack if something has a +1 to hit or leaves LFR to drop on a ravager or whatever.

@krayd, the current RAW is that you can target units inside terrain even if you dont have LOS. You will need to stand behind the base of the obscuring terrain to not be targetable.

Hmm, didn't realize Coven units can't use LFR. Only used on venoms/RWJF in 8th, was trying to think outside of the box

What I am struggling with now is how to fit enough Dissies into a single Kabal Patrol. May need to use Test of Skill raiders from a Cult patrol to make up for the single ravager that will fit...

fisheyes wrote:

@krayd, the current RAW is that you can target units inside terrain even if you dont have LOS. You will need to stand behind the base of the obscuring terrain to not be targetable.

We don't have a real RAW yet, because we don't have the book or the full terrain rules. However, there is no reason to assume that TLOS is overrided in any case. The rule exists specifically to allow shooting at units that are hanging out in terrain and viewable via windows and gaps, but to disallow shooting at units that are actually sitting behind the terrain piece. Prior to this, ITC instated similar terrain rules regarding the first floors of buildings, and these rules are very likely an evolution of that concept. So it is very likely that if you can manage to completely hide a unit from TLOS while it is within a terrain piece, you still won't be able to target it (unless you're using weapons that ignore TLOS).

Now, you may be correct in your interpretation, but if it is correct, then it would be a case of GW creating a new glaring problem while attempting to fix another, which, while not unprecedented, doesn't seem to be in line with what they are trying to accomplish with the new ruleset. According to the Splintermind guys, the new ruleset is very clear in its explanations of how the rules work (or, at least, the clearest that GW has ever been), so hopefully, there will be no question on how this works when the book is released.