i have beed using DL on my razorwings for a while now and i was perfectly happy with them. The problem is that they were part of a Test of Skill Airwing, now that we are basically forced in using 3 patrols, of which none is going to be Cult for me, i dont think ill be using them with DL they are way to unpredictable imo...
Not targeting you specifically, but in general, can we take a step back here on all the "too expensive".
Before we call anything too expensive, let's talk about the meta, the missions and what expensive means because it's all relative at the moment.
If you're paying 170 for 12W T6 with 3+/5++, 6 S5 AP-3 2D weapons that hit on 3s, with missiles, and with twin splinters, minus kabal/wych/custom abilities, what are you comparing this to?
That's the conversation I want to have, because compared to other options are out there, I think we are IN-LINE of what's to be expected in the new edition.
This means that its not going to be your overpriced crap vs. everyone elses' super-discounted things. You're both going to be playing with price-hiked units that decreases the scale of the game, which is less guns/boots on table for everyone.
10W for razor, and one reaper 12W with T7 (if near omunculus) is way better, yes very random but tought. 2 talos with dark tecnomancer, macro scalper and haiwyre are 210....i don't know the meta but every melee focused armies fly (blood angels, custodes, tyranid, ) and a shooting focused army overshoot us..
i'll wait i only complain my love for kabals..and the semi-mandatory need to take one or more coven dethacment
i have beed using DL on my razorwings for a while now and i was perfectly happy with them. The problem is that they were part of a Test of Skill Airwing, now that we are basically forced in using 3 patrols, of which none is going to be Cult for me, i dont think ill be using them with DL they are way to unpredictable imo...
Are you going Coven heavy?
What's the tale on Grots, are they still viable?
although its too soon to tell for sure what is viable and what not i think its relative safe to say that 2 Kabal patrols with 3 ravagers 2 razorwings and a prophets of flesh patrol with 6 talos is one of our most competitive choices imo. I have always favored Talos over Grots btw, now more so
I see the META in early 9th going hard into Intercessor Primaris Marines. As such, our Dissies will still have a place.
There should still be a place for 1-2 Ravagers in our lists, but they will not be the powerhouses that they used to be. I see us going to Flayed Skull over BH with the Writ, allowing that 1-2 Ravager to be more maneuverable and cagey.
I second Talos with the Splinter Pod. Easily the winner of our Codex. RWJF should still have a place in our lists, but probably only when combined with Test of Skill. Even Flayed Skull may not be a big enough buff to them to be competitive.
Did anyone see the point cost for Dark Lances on Vechicles? The only one I saw was the 15 pts for an infantry Dark Lance. I am honestly considering converting my HWB Scourges over to Dark Lances, then just keep Fire And Fade ready to JSJ them into/out of cover
I mean. You can compare the points increase that the Razorwing received compared to other Fliers:
Hemlock: 200 -> 230 (15% increase) Crimson Hunter Exarch with Starcannons: 176 -> 200 (13% increase) Razorwing with Disintegrators: 145 -> 170 (17% increase) Stormhawk Interceptor with 2 Assault Cannons, Skyhammer, 2 Heavy Bolters: 169 -> 195 (15% increase)
So of these four (chosen because they were honestly the first that came to mind), the Razorwing gets the highest percentage increase and doesn't benefit from the Heavy weapon change in the same way that the CHE or Stormhawk do. Relatively, it looks like the Razorwing has received a nerf, particularly compared to the CHE.
I'm not in extreme pessimism mode but I think there's a good reason why the competitive-wide consensus has quickly seemed to become that DE are one of the factions that have been hit hardest by these changes.
So, I think this is a perfectly fine conversation to have. Add Nightwings too for 160 points.
However, the lens at we should view this in is how good is the Razorwing compared to OTHER options using only the NEW points.
Don't even bother with old points, just don't. We have to look at the new units with how they're going to play against the new missions and what we're expected to see in the meta, which I think will be monsters/vehicles/MEQ+.
I don't agree that we should ignore old points entirely - when you have two units like the CHE and Razorwing that fill almost entirely the same role, comparing percentage changes here gives us an (admittedly imperfect) way of quickly seeing which might have become relatively better.
The final arbiter will, of course, be how these units perform in the new missions and against the new meta, but my initial gut reaction is that the Razorwing is in a relatively poorer spot now compared to the Crimson Hunter Exarch, which was already the arguably better pick.
I see the META in early 9th going hard into Intercessor Primaris Marines. As such, our Dissies will still have a place.
There should still be a place for 1-2 Ravagers in our lists, but they will not be the powerhouses that they used to be. I see us going to Flayed Skull over BH with the Writ, allowing that 1-2 Ravager to be more maneuverable and cagey.
I second Talos with the Splinter Pod. Easily the winner of our Codex. RWJF should still have a place in our lists, but probably only when combined with Test of Skill. Even Flayed Skull may not be a big enough buff to them to be competitive.
Did anyone see the point cost for Dark Lances on Vechicles? The only one I saw was the 15 pts for an infantry Dark Lance. I am honestly considering converting my HWB Scourges over to Dark Lances, then just keep Fire And Fade ready to JSJ them into/out of cover
Lances are 20 vs. Dissies' 25.
I still think Dissies will be king because of the all the MEQ+ that I'm expecting, and its still flexible enough to play against hordes.
My predictions for the new meta, especially after seeing points will be more beefy boys, MEQ+ so Primaris/Custodes meta. We should be gearing towards being able to play missions against a surplus of MEQ+-equiv armies in the near-future. I say this knowing the TS/DG buffs as well. vehicle/monster-heavy meta as well, I think this one is a given seeing all the buffs.
What I think everyone should be doing is making a bucket list of units that are good against the above. I plan on writing another article with my own bucket list.. but I see us (personally) going two directions.
> 3-flavor patrol: Flayed Skull Kabal, Test of Skill Wych, Prophets Coven. > Gunboat Kabals, taking Flayed Skull again for the movement buff, poison accuracy and Ignore Cover, all of which is ace in this new edition.
With no command re-rolls available to AoV, and with CP generation being limited, I don't see BH as the go-to any more. +3" Movement increase on a smaller board makes up for the smaller board and re-enables hit and run tactics. It also allows for more objective and positioning play. Re-rolls to hit with poison is always good. Ignore Cover is the biggest boon IMO, since you want to shut down MEQ+ as much as possible with effective fire.
I don't agree that we should ignore old points entirely - when you have two units like the CHE and Razorwing that fill almost entirely the same role, comparing percentage changes here gives us an (admittedly imperfect) way of quickly seeing which might have become relatively better.
The final arbiter will, of course, be how these units perform in the new missions and against the new meta, but my initial gut reaction is that the Razorwing is in a relatively poorer spot now compared to the Crimson Hunter Exarch, which was already the arguably better pick.
Your current comparison for Razorwing vs. CHE is using the new points: 170 vs. 200. There's 0 consideration with old points in that direct comparison in 9th, so why bother.
TY for the DL points @HERO. I assumed it would be 20 pts, but hoped it was only 15.
CHE was always better than our RWJF, even back in 6th/7th. They are Anti Tank, we are a random mish-mash of poison and lances XD. Test of Skill is the only thing that really bumps them into "good" territory (at least back in 8th).
One thing that nobody is talking about is how HQs faired in 9th in general. Almost all HQs saw less than average point increases. Maybe this means its time to spam those Haemonculi with those sweet Relics that make them good (Nightmare Doll, Helm of Spite, Vexator Mask, etc).
We also have some of the cheapest units in the game (Ssylith, Khamere). I will be taking some of these for back-field screening.
Not to irritate HERO further but just cross-posting a chart I made for the Webway Discord, looking at relative increases in our common units from 8th to 9th:
Archons have fared very well in the transition, especially with a full loadout. Scourges... not so much, although at least their pricier loadouts are benefiting from Blast now.
Well in good news(?) it looks like Lelith is getting a plastic model https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/14/the-rumour-engine-july-14th-2020/ That could be something else but I'm fairly positive that's her hair
The Strange Dark One Wych
Posts : 881 Join date : 2014-08-22 Location : Private subrealm of the Eldritch Skies Kabal.
Not to irritate HERO further but just cross-posting a chart I made for the Webway Discord, looking at relative increases in our common units from 8th to 9th:
Archons have fared very well in the transition, especially with a full loadout. Scourges... not so much, although at least their pricier loadouts are benefiting from Blast now.
That is only half the truth. If you compare infantry, you need to factor in the transport cost. Applying those games it still doesn't give a nice perspective, but it reduces our biggest losers to have increases that merely lie around 20% to 25% in increases.
Edit:
Archon_91 wrote:
Well in good news(?) it looks like Lelith is getting a plastic model https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/14/the-rumour-engine-july-14th-2020/ That could be something else but I'm fairly positive that's her hair
I really don't want to be the negative "that guy", but I couldn't care less... Technically, I know it's too early to be a nay sayer but from all we know, Wych Cults are clear losers and I don't see any appeal about them that would be worth mentioning in the framework of 9th. If anything, I'd take a "Test of Skill" patrol.
... I was seriously hoping for a plastic Grotesques + Urien package. Or at least Mandrakes. Poor naive me. At least Artel W is working on some Grotesques aka "Flesh Golems".
Well in good news(?) it looks like Lelith is getting a plastic model https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/14/the-rumour-engine-july-14th-2020/ That could be something else but I'm fairly positive that's her hair
I really don't want to be the negative "that guy", but I couldn't care less... Technically, I know it's too early to be a nay sayer but from all we know, Wych Cults are clear losers and I don't see any appeal about them that would be worth mentioning in the framework of 9th. If anything, I'd take a "Test of Skill" patrol.
... I was seriously hoping for a plastic Grotesques + Urien package. Or at least Mandrakes. Poor naive me. At least Artel W is working on some Grotesques aka "Flesh Golems".
They're clearly updating all of our Finecast characters to plastic, so Urien can't be too far behind Lelith.
I actually get the feeling the Aeldari armies are going to be seeing some serious updates in general over the course of 9th edition.
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
I am not going to knock us getting Lelith in platic, but she isn't exactly 'needed'. I wouldn't be surprised if she's released with Drukhari and Ynnari rules.
On the other hand I'm certain that plastic Grots are on their way....mainly because I've spent the last week converting six of them from Crypt Horrors and Talos bits I was also lucky enough to find a metal Rakarth on Ebay.
Not to irritate HERO further but just cross-posting a chart I made for the Webway Discord, looking at relative increases in our common units from 8th to 9th:
Archons have fared very well in the transition, especially with a full loadout. Scourges... not so much, although at least their pricier loadouts are benefiting from Blast now.
You're fine mate, I'm not irritated. I'm just saying with 9th here, there's no point looking backwards for what we lost and we might as well treat the points as a brand new codex. Onwards and upwards.
Also, looking at the chart, as a thought exercise, we should look at the table and filter it with: > This, I care about, because it makes it tough to play vs. the meta and missions in 9th. > And, this, no one should care about because they are poor in those mission scenarios anyway.
Retrospectively comparing points only matter when the first part I mentioned matters. Like if Sslyth or something went up 50%, I literally give 0 crap and neither should you.
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
I'm really positive about the Sslyth.....Drazhar's airbag got 6 points cheaper
I legitimately think there might be some mileage in a Ynnari Archon with Sslyth back up now. The Hungering Blade and Warden of Souls already made an Archon exceptionally strong, paying 63 points to give it the equivalent of 14 total wounds is pretty spicy.
colinsherlow Hekatrix
Posts : 1034 Join date : 2011-11-23 Location : Vancouver BC
I am trying to figure out if I can make 30 rqzorwing flocks and possibly the Ycarne work. The Ycarne makes them fearless goves them a 6+++ and they can get a 5++ in a radius with a psych power. He provides a threat while they clog a big section of the field.
Keep in mind that cover saves are only ever applied to infantry, beasts, and swarms now. Let that sink in.
Now you can get a -1 to hit or be completely obscured using Dense Cover or Obscurring rules respectively but tournaments generally don't use forests or "ruined walls". We will see how that shakes out but in a typical ITC or NOVA game style with 4 ruins and 2 hills....cover will now be scarce.
Regardless of the rules changes I have to agree with some others in that most of these point changes dont make sense even in the 9th edition context but.......
We may be getting a codex soon so that could be the context we need.
> 40K tournaments all using GW matched play rules > The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games. https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/ > Immediately unshelves my 15 Blasterborn and puts Blasters back on Archons for tournaments
Prove me wrong.
colinsherlow Hekatrix
Posts : 1034 Join date : 2011-11-23 Location : Vancouver BC
> 40K tournaments all using GW matched play rules > The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games. https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/ > Immediately unshelves my 15 Blasterborn and puts Blasters back on Archons for tournaments
Prove me wrong.
It would be soooo hard not to load up on blasterborn again. I still have my 3 units all blastered up amd ready to go. Haha!
Legends units have always been capable of being run in tournaments, if the event allowed them. GW recommend that they're not allowed and their events at Warhammer World don't let you run them, so I wouldn't hold my breath about the wider competitive scene deeming them acceptable.
Squidmaster Klaivex
Posts : 2225 Join date : 2013-12-18 Location : Hampshire, England
> 40K tournaments all using GW matched play rules > The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games. https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/ > Immediately unshelves my 15 Blasterborn and puts Blasters back on Archons for tournaments
Prove me wrong.
Legends have always been available for Matched play. But because they're no longer being updated, they're not RECOMMENDED for COMPETITIVE play. Thats something I find myself arguing constantly - that theres a difference between matched and Competitive. You can still play matched casually, ec. So legends CAN be used at tournaments, IF the tournament allows them, which GW recommends they don't.
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon 
Wed Jul 15 2020, 18:46
I was also lucky enough to find a metal Rakarth on Ebay.
