Reavers are a toolbox unit. They can be tailored to do just about anything with the right weapon, cult and drug combo. The real issues with Reavers in this edition are not being able to claim cover (if that rumor is correct) and their upgrade threshold being 6 for a 2nd weapon upgrade. To take that 2nd Blaster, Heat Lance or Cluster Caltrop you have to be vulnerable to Blast weapons.
Reavers can't claim cover in any manner that involves being on or in a piece of terrain (no armor save bonus for being in soft cover) - only infantry, beasts, and swarms get those I believe, but they can claim the bonuses such as being blocked from LOS by obscured terrain, or having a -1 to be hit by being behind dense cover, as these bonuses are not applied to units that are within the terrain piece.
I think a list like this gives us what we need to play all-comers, all-missions. The Wyches are the only iffy part ofc, but that's why they are just there for cheap scoring units while providing you with Test of Skill Razorwings.
Overall, this is where it's at if you want to run Trifecta IMO; Talos, while good, certainly do not replace Grots or Wracks. You still need meat elements to play primaries better.
The whining and complaining is hilarious on here, honestly. All of you that want to sit and complain about "how we got screwed" or "our points went up" blah blah blah... Just stop. You can't change the points, you can't change the units, so complaining and whining does nothing. How about adding to the conversation about what makes our codex great and competitive.
I understand where you're coming from, but being completely dismissive isn't contributing to the conversation either. If you were honestly coming from a place of "let's make the conversation positive" you probably wouldn't have started your post by insulting a large chunk of people.
Other than that, I largely agree with you. I would just encourage you to have a little empathy as people process changes. People aren't complaining because they think they can change the game. They're complaining because they're coming to terms with the changes.
People have spent all kinds of time building, converting, painting, installing LEDs, creating backstories for the army, conceiving of themed lists, etc. Having some or all of that invalidated by an edition change can be frustrating even if it is inevitable.
Rather than preach about how much more superior you are to everyone complaining, why not just let people get it out of their system?
As repellent as you may find it, humans are going to continue to process change through a filter of human emotions. You can mock that as much as you like, just don't pretend you're part of the solution. Throwing negative emotional energy at what you perceive as negative emotional energy is pointless.
You've got to see the irony in whining about whining.
Well Sekac, good thing everyone that is complaining and whining has you there to defend them!Grown ups on here must not be capable of doing that themselves. Nothing anyone did last edition is invalidated. So you're wrong there. If you spent time on units by painting or whatever, GW didn't take them away. They can still use them. I'm not pretending to be anything other than giving advice (this is a forum right?) on what I believe the good units are and some things I was skeptical about. Never said I was the solution or superior to anyone. But complaining and whining over something you have no control over is pointless. We all went through it, but continually posting about does nothing for us as a community. We all have to deal with it and we all can't change. Get off your pedestal. You tell me people have the right to complain, then turn around and put me down for complaining! Comedian right here!
@the constructive discussion As far as Reavers go, with terrain, that is another detriment in taking them. If they aren't getting all of the bonuses for being in the terrain, they are even in a worse spot. Hiding them behind and popping them out with Red Grief seems like a sounds strat, but using a whole Patrol detachment on it doesn't seem like the most efficient use.
@HERO That list seems pretty solid for the triple patrol. I like Dark Techno more than Test of Skill because of ToS's restriction to only monsters and vehicles of 10+ wounds. But I agree, if you take ToS fliers seem to be the best for them. Though I like the Voidraven as 1/2 fliers that can be taken. I think Grotesques are now 42 points too. So the points on your Grots are off. The Flesh Gauntlet went up 2 points. I missed that in my first list building too. So 7 Grots is 294.
I think a list like this gives us what we need to play all-comers, all-missions. The Wyches are the only iffy part ofc, but that's why they are just there for cheap scoring units while providing you with Test of Skill Razorwings.
Overall, this is where it's at if you want to run Trifecta IMO; Talos, while good, certainly do not replace Grots or Wracks. You still need meat elements to play primaries better.
Out of curiosity, how do you plan on using the warrior units with Blaster/Blast Pistol combo? I take it they're trying to stay in their transport for as long as possible, so is the transport getting within 6" of an enemy target?
Warrior with Blaster/Blast Pistol combo have probably fared the best seeing as the weaponry has come down in points, but I'm not sure how to max out their utility. I was thinking Flayed Skull Venoms may be easier to hide/more mobile and are slightly cheaper than the Raiders? You can still very easily spam them. 2 Archons w/ Blast Pistols, 5x5 Warriors w/ Blaster+Pistol, 7 Venoms and 3 Ravagers still fit under 1500 points.
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
At the risk of being cheesy...Since ranged attacks from an open topped transport are measured from the hull of the vehicle (at least in 8th), you can easily get 7 inches out of a Blast Pistol in a Venom....every inch counts
At the risk of being cheesy...Since ranged attacks from an open topped transport are measured from the hull of the vehicle (at least in 8th), you can easily get 7 inches out of a Blast Pistol in a Venom....every inch counts
If you're playing that kind of list I think it's a must anyway.
So with Flayed Skull Venom movement (19") and that 7" pistol I guess you can get them where you need too! Don't imagine they'll live for too long, but that's why you play 7 of them
I think a list like this gives us what we need to play all-comers, all-missions. The Wyches are the only iffy part ofc, but that's why they are just there for cheap scoring units while providing you with Test of Skill Razorwings.
Overall, this is where it's at if you want to run Trifecta IMO; Talos, while good, certainly do not replace Grots or Wracks. You still need meat elements to play primaries better.
Out of curiosity, how do you plan on using the warrior units with Blaster/Blast Pistol combo? I take it they're trying to stay in their transport for as long as possible, so is the transport getting within 6" of an enemy target?
Warrior with Blaster/Blast Pistol combo have probably fared the best seeing as the weaponry has come down in points, but I'm not sure how to max out their utility. I was thinking Flayed Skull Venoms may be easier to hide/more mobile and are slightly cheaper than the Raiders? You can still very easily spam them. 2 Archons w/ Blast Pistols, 5x5 Warriors w/ Blaster+Pistol, 7 Venoms and 3 Ravagers still fit under 1500 points.
In general, I have never been a fan of Venoms. That means me quite the outlier here since the way I've been playing DE since 3rd has all about been volume of highly lethal firepower. So while I own 6 Venoms, I use Raiders. The Raider profile is very slim, which actually helps us a LOT when it comes to how many "boats" you can hide behind something.
With Venoms and Raiders closing on points, and with the MEQ shifting over to Mech/Vehicles/MEQ++, I think the Raider is now leagues better than the Venom, as it's more of a meta choice.
In my latest article, you'll find the Raider-based mechdar list here: https://lkhero.blogspot.com/2020/07/new-points-are-here-time-to-boogy.html
If you look at the rest of the blog, you'll find lists like this all over. I think I'm very different than most of the players on this forum as I own absolutely ZERO Haemonculus units, I only have Kabal and Wyches, with most of my time dedicated to playing pure Kabal.
As for how to utilize your transports to draw more firing angles, you can read about it here. Most of this article is still very relevant. It effectively teaches you how to use your vehicles as stop-gaps, use flyers as blockers (even more relevant) and how to use your infantry to shoot from behind vehicles. https://lkhero.blogspot.com/2018/04/de-tips-and-tricks-on-movement.html
@HERO That list seems pretty solid for the triple patrol. I like Dark Techno more than Test of Skill because of ToS's restriction to only monsters and vehicles of 10+ wounds. But I agree, if you take ToS fliers seem to be the best for them. Though I like the Voidraven as 1/2 fliers that can be taken. I think Grotesques are now 42 points too. So the points on your Grots are off. The Flesh Gauntlet went up 2 points. I missed that in my first list building too. So 7 Grots is 294.
*Edited for Grotesque points comment.
Thanks for the catch -- Just drop all blast pitols then and that should do it.
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
At the risk of being cheesy...Since ranged attacks from an open topped transport are measured from the hull of the vehicle (at least in 8th), you can easily get 7 inches out of a Blast Pistol in a Venom....every inch counts
The measure from hull rule is specific to the raider. Venoms measure from base.
False Son Sybarite
Posts : 307 Join date : 2012-12-23
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sat Jul 18 2020, 01:17
SCP Yeeman wrote:
@the constructive discussion As far as Reavers go, with terrain, that is another detriment in taking them. If they aren't getting all of the bonuses for being in the terrain, they are even in a worse spot. Hiding them behind and popping them out with Red Grief seems like a sounds strat, but using a whole Patrol detachment on it doesn't seem like the most efficient use.
Red Grief is the least risky format for Reavers. They can Advance, use Eviscerating Flyby, shoot their Blasters or Heat Lances, charge, all in one turn. The real strength is using Eviscerating Flyby and still being able to charge.
Red Grief Wyches with Hypex can move 10, Advance with reroll, and still charge. If you used Architects of Pain you could reroll the charge, as well.
In addition, the Red Grief relic is the best we have.
I mostly use a Slashing Impact/Art of Pain combination. Move, shoot, charge and cause mortal wounds. All my attacks hit on 2s, because i use Architects of Pain. With Ardrenalight they each get 3 attacks.
There's lots of good combinations, and uses. Some people use them with Painbringer, Fire and Fade as a bait unit. While they can't get the cover save bonus, a -1 to hit is still a big boost in survivability. Reavers are also great candidates for Cruel Deception. Really, just so many options.
Barking Agatha Wych
Posts : 845 Join date : 2012-07-02
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sat Jul 18 2020, 03:03
Hi again
I just wanted to say that being 'negative' isn't necessarily negative. There's a point to being negative, and being positive might be negative if being positive means we can't be negative, and therefore positive.
How so? Because it's unlikely that GW designers read each and every complaint in this forum, but if a lot of us start whining and moaning and rending of our clothes in anguish, and if this sentiment is echoed in comments on other 40K sites, it does add up to GW hearing a rumour that the current version of the Drukhari isn't getting rave reviews.
If I were working at GW, I would resist this information to the best of my ability. First I would say, 'They haven't even tried the new edition yet. Wait until after launch, it will be fine.' Then I would say, 'It's early days yet, let them get used to the new environment and it will be fine.' Then I would say, 'Wait until the new plastic Lelith comes out, they'll be more than fine!' It would take ages of constant complaints for me to go, 'Well, maybe they really are a bit crap,' and even longer to voice the heretical thought, 'Maybe we should... do something about it?' And assuming I wasn't immediately fired for suggesting such a thing, we might actually get some decent rules. It's a long shot, but hey
It's a funny thing about fandom that in any other circumstances we wouldn't even argue about being negative or positive. If you were promised a delicious trifle for dessert, and it turned out to be broccoli smothered in mustard, would you shrug and make the best of it? If you were offered a soothing massage, and two big fellas turned up to work you over with wooden paddles, wouldn't you want to have a word? On the other hand, if you *did* want them to work you over with paddles and all you got was a soothing massage, you'd be disappointed too, so it's not a bad idea to speak up and say what you want. You may think that it goes without saying, but people like different things and not everyone is a mind reader, you know?
I've noticed that some well known space meringue players aren't shy at all about saying what they want. And they want everything, They want a space meringue that shoots 100 times, and a space meringue that kills enemy characters by thinking about it, and a space meringue that kills a dozen enemies with every blow, and a space meringue that grabs your warlord in melee and sells her a time-share in Cancun. They're also not shy about saying that the Drukhari are perfectly fine they way they are and shouldn't get anything new, especially nothing new that might threaten their poor, precious meringues. It's not a terrible idea to speak up and say that we don't agree with that.
The stoic ideal of being happy with what you get, accepting it, and moving on is exactly why we can never have nice things. My opinion of course
PartridgeKing, El_Jairo, Cavash, harlokin, The Strange Dark One, konkorde, Genomir and like this post
The Strange Dark One Wych
Posts : 881 Join date : 2014-08-22 Location : Private subrealm of the Eldritch Skies Kabal.
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sat Jul 18 2020, 17:45
Barking Agatha wrote:
Hi again
I just wanted to say that being 'negative' isn't necessarily negative. There's a point to being negative, and being positive might be negative if being positive means we can't be negative, and therefore positive.
How so? Because it's unlikely that GW designers read each and every complaint in this forum, but if a lot of us start whining and moaning and rending of our clothes in anguish, and if this sentiment is echoed in comments on other 40K sites, it does add up to GW hearing a rumour that the current version of the Drukhari isn't getting rave reviews.
If I were working at GW, I would resist this information to the best of my ability. First I would say, 'They haven't even tried the new edition yet. Wait until after launch, it will be fine.' Then I would say, 'It's early days yet, let them get used to the new environment and it will be fine.' Then I would say, 'Wait until the new plastic Lelith comes out, they'll be more than fine!' It would take ages of constant complaints for me to go, 'Well, maybe they really are a bit crap,' and even longer to voice the heretical thought, 'Maybe we should... do something about it?' And assuming I wasn't immediately fired for suggesting such a thing, we might actually get some decent rules. It's a long shot, but hey
It's a funny thing about fandom that in any other circumstances we wouldn't even argue about being negative or positive. If you were promised a delicious trifle for dessert, and it turned out to be broccoli smothered in mustard, would you shrug and make the best of it? If you were offered a soothing massage, and two big fellas turned up to work you over with wooden paddles, wouldn't you want to have a word? On the other hand, if you *did* want them to work you over with paddles and all you got was a soothing massage, you'd be disappointed too, so it's not a bad idea to speak up and say what you want. You may think that it goes without saying, but people like different things and not everyone is a mind reader, you know?
I've noticed that some well known space meringue players aren't shy at all about saying what they want. And they want everything, They want a space meringue that shoots 100 times, and a space meringue that kills enemy characters by thinking about it, and a space meringue that kills a dozen enemies with every blow, and a space meringue that grabs your warlord in melee and sells her a time-share in Cancun. They're also not shy about saying that the Drukhari are perfectly fine they way they are and shouldn't get anything new, especially nothing new that might threaten their poor, precious meringues. It's not a terrible idea to speak up and say that we don't agree with that.
The stoic ideal of being happy with what you get, accepting it, and moving on is exactly why we can never have nice things. My opinion of course
This is further confirmed by Tabletop Tactics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Unp-BggXsk&t=1520s&app=desktop
They say that they have been approached by GW in the past go hear their opinion on something they read in obscure facebook groups or other parts of the internet.
More interestingly: They pretty much state that status quo isn't good but are assured that things will change for the better. They said they can't tell when "specific releases" are going to hit, but they know because they are playtesters. Just as they have been playtesters of 9th for months already.
ferrusmanus Hellion
Posts : 42 Join date : 2020-06-28
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sat Jul 18 2020, 18:58
a personal doubt..from manual , the core rules downloadable from official site "Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from� If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull" so for ravager we do all measurement from the base? O.o i have missed something? i hope so
amishprn86 Archon
Posts : 4436 Join date : 2014-10-04 Location : Ohio
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sat Jul 18 2020, 19:50
No b.c the Ravager and Raider has the Hull rule which says measure from the Hull instead of the base. You still follow Codex rules as they modify the main rules.
ferrusmanus Hellion
Posts : 42 Join date : 2020-06-28
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sat Jul 18 2020, 20:15
amishprn86 wrote:
No b.c the Ravager and Raider has the Hull rule which says measure from the Hull instead of the base. You still follow Codex rules as they modify the main rules.
ahhh good fiuu ^^
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sun Jul 19 2020, 18:37
We have some good units to score the new secondaries. Getting into the enemy deployment, or getting units in every table quarter is fairly easy with most builds.
Not sure if Grots are worth it, just do be able to Raise The Banner. If you have a Haemunculus with a clutch of Taloi, the Haemunculus can Raise The Banner just as good.
Scourge/Mandrake are cheap enough to attempt the Repair Teleporter secondary.
What secondaries are you guys looking at building around?
harlokin Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 142 Join date : 2013-07-24 Location : London
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon Sun Jul 19 2020, 19:08
Mandrakes are deffo golden again.
I had a bit of a play yesterday, and Grots seemed very solid to me, particularly with Rakarth. My regular Haemonculus died early from sniper fire, which they are always going to be a target for. My gut feeling is that Grots were undercosted before, so the points hike hasn't really impacted their effectivenes.
I want to make sure everyone building lists with Missions in mind https://imgur.com/a/uH74BUw?fbclid=IwAR1WUYa1tX4l2nLI-abmjWANBPV9rBd8Y4HII7uZG2rzpH-bueyHxIOxZqI
This is a great find, HERO. The secondaries certainly do put things in a different perspective. Interesting that you don't get primary objective points in the first turn.
amishprn86 Archon
Posts : 4436 Join date : 2014-10-04 Location : Ohio
Yep, I've played 6 games with the new missions (only 2 with new points) they are much better than ITC. You will not get all the secondarys and Primarys are more important.
Of course. But, it is interesting to see how our lists could interact with Secondaries.
I'm becoming more convinced that Wyches are appropriately priced. It pains me to say that, but if we insist on selection of Combat Drugs before the battle, and not as part of our list build, they are looking really, really good in 9th.
That is what I think too. Overall, I think our prices still good for the edition itself and for how our army works. If I consider this, and the general increment in price overall, I think Drukhari are not in a bad spot. Heck even a Kabal MSU spam now sounds good. High mobility, secondaries, both poison, dissies and blaster spam (which is perfect in this elite/veichle/monsters meta). And you field a lot of bodies, anyone who knows our "geometry" can get how much good can be an MSU in the field.
Subject: Re: 40k 9th Editon 
Fri Jul 17 2020, 18:45
If you're playing that kind of list I think it's a must anyway. 
