The Current Meta Going into 9th

Cerve wrote:

And I guess everyone here forget a little thing called "Covid". Of course this changeover have something wrong, there's a GLOBAL PANDEMIC in act right now

I know, right.

Imagine the backlash if GW had delayed the release of 9th for a few months, whilst they sorted everything out, rather than just vomiting out poorly thought-out crap at the first opportunity.

Cerve wrote:

And I guess everyone here forget a little thing called "Covid". Of course this changeover have something wrong, there's a GLOBAL PANDEMIC in act right now

And yet Covid hasn't stopped them from bringing out an astonishing excess of new rules and goodies for the space meringues. In about a year they've got Primaris Intercessors, Primaris Eliminators, Primaris Infiltrators, Primaris Inceptors, Primaris Suppressors, Primaris Exculpators, Primaris Exacerbators, Primaris Dissimulators, Primaris Regurgitators, Primaris Procrastinators, Primaris Exaggerators, and who knows what else!

Nor is Covid stopping them from buffing up the classic space meringues in order to bring them up to speed with this rich Primaris Buffet, probably because they've finally noticed that nobody is buying the old meringues any more.

I don't see how Covid justifies a botched job. Lots of people are working from home, and we're still supposed to pay attention to what we do. Personally I think that we're just a very low priority for them.

I'm sure they'll get to us eventually, and maybe *this* time our codex will be an improvement over the last one, instead of another round of austerity cuts, who knows? Wonders do happen! But when? A year, two years? We could be dead by then, or pregnant! Or both!

In the meantime it sounds like it's going to be very frustrating and not fun at all.

sekac wrote:

False Son wrote:

I'm witholding judgement for now.  GW has made more than a few surprising moves lately.  Releasing these stat changes after just releasing CA2020 is a bit puzzling. This seems like a sloppy edition change, considering how similarly 8th and 9th function.

This is, by far, their worst edition changeover I've been a part of.

8th was by far their best. They decided to scrap that very functional model and roll out an abomination. They took marines and cranked them to 11 last editon. Then thought it would be fun to begin this edition by cranking them to 12.

But don't worry,  eventually we'll eventually get cranked to 10, so that'll be rad.

You know they've done an absolutely crap job this edition when all my space marine friends want to start another army so they don't have to play the joke army any more. Nobody except GW thinks it's fun.

7th was the best and nothing will be better. 6th was so bad and 7th was just 6th with the fixes. 7th was honestly just 6.5. But those 8-9 rule changes from 6th to 7th was GAME CHANGING. Also Orks, Nids, and a few other armies were nearly unplayable too.

This like
Flamers can hit guys inside open top
Flamers can kill outside its range
HP's were even easier to break open
MC's melee attacks got F'ed up and only could attack with 1 weapon at better value
Flyers nearly impossible to kill b.c lack of AA guns and they all only hit on Snap shots
Ally chart was even worst than the 7th one
You can easily get re-rolls on saves and a 2++
ALL abilities, powers, etc.. was 100% random. You could not pick them
Getting out of a transport, Outflank, and Infiltrate lost the ability to even charge
Multi assault made you always fight last


And a list of more things that I can't remember right now


But with that said, i like 9th a lot more than 8th, i also am not to worried about the new rules being added until I see if they are doing a blanket update for everyone. Its just like GW to do them 2-4 weeks apart for hype reasons. I'll wait a couple weeks at least before getting to worried.

amishprn86 wrote:

sekac wrote:

False Son wrote:

I'm witholding judgement for now.  GW has made more than a few surprising moves lately.  Releasing these stat changes after just releasing CA2020 is a bit puzzling. This seems like a sloppy edition change, considering how similarly 8th and 9th function.

This is, by far, their worst edition changeover I've been a part of.

8th was by far their best. They decided to scrap that very functional model and roll out an abomination. They took marines and cranked them to 11 last editon. Then thought it would be fun to begin this edition by cranking them to 12.

But don't worry,  eventually we'll eventually get cranked to 10, so that'll be rad.

You know they've done an absolutely crap job this edition when all my space marine friends want to start another army so they don't have to play the joke army any more. Nobody except GW thinks it's fun.

7th was the best and nothing will be better. 6th was so bad and 7th was just 6th with the fixes. 7th was honestly just 6.5. But those 8-9 rule changes from 6th to 7th was GAME CHANGING. Also Orks, Nids, and a few other armies were nearly unplayable too.

This like
Flamers can hit guys inside open top
Flamers can kill outside its range
HP's were even easier to break open
MC's melee attacks got F'ed up and only could attack with 1 weapon at better value
Flyers nearly impossible to kill b.c lack of AA guns and they all only hit on Snap shots
Ally chart was even worst than the 7th one
You can easily get re-rolls on saves and a 2++
ALL abilities, powers, etc.. was 100% random. You could not pick them
Getting out of a transport, Outflank, and Infiltrate lost the ability to even charge
Multi assault made you always fight last


And a list of more things that I can't remember right now


But with that said, i like 9th a lot more than 8th, i also am not to worried about the new rules being added until I see if they are doing a blanket update for everyone. Its just like GW to do them 2-4 weeks apart for hype reasons. I'll wait a couple weeks at least before getting to worried.

I'm not talking about necessary rule changes or improvements, simply the release strategy. Making everyone ready on day 1 of 8th was something they've never done, it worked well as a stopgap, and now they've decided to not do that again for some reason. Too much effort I suppose.

The thing that makes the edition launch by far the worst I've been a part of is intentionally making the game bad early in the edition so that they can hopefully balance it out later on.

The thing is even worse when the idea of 9th is to improve massively all the armies with the codex (dudes doubling their wounds, weapons causing double damage...).
When the codex is not released at hte same time, the codex creep is going to be even more frustrating, with armies receiving this huge buff like a year before the rest.

I like this game because I like Drukhari, I have no interest in other factions... so luckily I can play vs friends of mine that play Xenos too and I can learn that way, but I'm not even thinking on losing one day on a tournament in my shop, people there is heavily competitive and like 75% of the shop plays some type of SpaceMarine Chapter.

I've been told that 8th had Indexes, where everyone had some rules and upgraded stuff from day 1. I don't know why is not that way in 9th. At least I could know what to buy next and how to build it

Denegaar wrote:

I like this game because I like Drukhari, I have no interest in other factions... so luckily I can play vs friends of mine that play Xenos too and I can learn that way, but I'm not even thinking on losing one day on a tournament in my shop, people there is heavily competitive and like 75% of the shop plays some type of SpaceMarine Chapter.

Exactly the same for me.

I somewhat concerned at how lacklusture the Necron rules leaks have been, before you even compare them to the Marine versions...hopefully they will prove better when officially released, because I think the Necron stuff is a more realistic barometer for what we can expect than the Marine rules.

sekac wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

sekac wrote:

False Son wrote:

I'm witholding judgement for now.  GW has made more than a few surprising moves lately.  Releasing these stat changes after just releasing CA2020 is a bit puzzling. This seems like a sloppy edition change, considering how similarly 8th and 9th function.

This is, by far, their worst edition changeover I've been a part of.

8th was by far their best. They decided to scrap that very functional model and roll out an abomination. They took marines and cranked them to 11 last editon. Then thought it would be fun to begin this edition by cranking them to 12.

But don't worry,  eventually we'll eventually get cranked to 10, so that'll be rad.

You know they've done an absolutely crap job this edition when all my space marine friends want to start another army so they don't have to play the joke army any more. Nobody except GW thinks it's fun.

7th was the best and nothing will be better. 6th was so bad and 7th was just 6th with the fixes. 7th was honestly just 6.5. But those 8-9 rule changes from 6th to 7th was GAME CHANGING. Also Orks, Nids, and a few other armies were nearly unplayable too.

This like
Flamers can hit guys inside open top
Flamers can kill outside its range
HP's were even easier to break open
MC's melee attacks got F'ed up and only could attack with 1 weapon at better value
Flyers nearly impossible to kill b.c lack of AA guns and they all only hit on Snap shots
Ally chart was even worst than the 7th one
You can easily get re-rolls on saves and a 2++
ALL abilities, powers, etc.. was 100% random. You could not pick them
Getting out of a transport, Outflank, and Infiltrate lost the ability to even charge
Multi assault made you always fight last


And a list of more things that I can't remember right now


But with that said, i like 9th a lot more than 8th, i also am not to worried about the new rules being added until I see if they are doing a blanket update for everyone. Its just like GW to do them 2-4 weeks apart for hype reasons. I'll wait a couple weeks at least before getting to worried.

I'm not talking about necessary rule changes or improvements, simply the release strategy. Making everyone ready on day 1 of 8th was something they've never done, it worked well as a stopgap, and now they've decided to not do that again for some reason. Too much effort I suppose.

The thing that makes the edition launch by far the worst I've been a part of is intentionally making the game bad early in the edition so that they can hopefully balance it out later on.

To the players its the same end result though, but worst. I've never seen so many players quit, i've only seen players come back after 8th.

It would have been a much larger job for GW to give every single army a big update all at once. That's not going to happen. I'd rather GW release a few things and adapt more with time
If everything came out at once it would be too much. And who cares about tac marines being 2 wounds. Tac marines have been pretty crappy for awhile now. If ppl are taking tac marines then they are taking fewer nasty primaris.
And everyone should be used to marines getting most of the attention. That won't really change. I'd play marines if I liked them and would be stoked about all of the content they get. Now I do think it is a bit much and I do think that other factions should get more attention. But people seriously complain so much it drives me batty.

People almost always over react when something changes and so many people seem to quit until things get figured out a calm down a bit. I just don't get why this keeps happening. The game changes. Things are never perfectly balanced. They never really will be. Strategies change, the meta changes. Armies come and go from the top of the meta to tr bottom. This is mostly all good though. The game would get so boring and stagnant otherwise.

We know from the play testers that most (if not all) of the codexes are done. GW could release them through their paid app (perhaps justifying the ridiculous price), and release the hard copies when logistics allow. They simply choose not to, and  the player base is conditioned to accept as normal not having their army's new rules for years into a new edition.

colinsherlow wrote:

It would have been a much larger job for GW to give every single army a big update all at once. That's not going to happen. I'd rather GW release a few things and adapt more with time
If everything came out at once it would be too much. And who cares about tac marines being 2 wounds. Tac marines have been pretty crappy for awhile now. If ppl are taking tac marines then they are taking fewer nasty primaris.
And everyone should be used to marines getting most of the attention. That won't really change. I'd play marines if I liked them and would be stoked about all of the content they get. Now I do think it is a bit much and I do think that other factions should get more attention. But people seriously complain so much it drives me batty.

People almost always over react when something changes and so many people seem to quit until things get figured out a calm down a bit. I just don't get why this keeps happening. The game changes. Things are never perfectly balanced. They never really will be. Strategies change, the meta changes. Armies come and go from the top of the meta to tr bottom. This is mostly all good though. The game would get so boring and stagnant otherwise.

We just had an editions worth of tweaking and points adjustment which is completely blown out of the window. And to mitigate the power creep across all factions it was sensible to soft-reset the power curve.

GW could have lowered the suggested amount of points instead. Or just give a flat +25% increase on everything and do some rounding. But good ol' GW prefers a sledgehammer apparently. We don't even have it the worst, now Genestealers truly got the shaft.

And yes. 2 wounds on Marines is not the end of the world, but its another entry in the series of rather questionable decisions that we know as 9th. I fail to see any coherent vision or concept going forward.

Barking Agatha wrote:

GW wrote:

‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around.

Awesome! Can you recommend another game to play until yours is ready?

Unironically: Twilight Imperium is really awesome. I've been enjoying it for some months now.

Guys...giving a flat value in points is the worst way to balance a game! It is not how it works

Cerve wrote:

Guys...giving a flat value in points is the worst way to balance a game! It is not how it works

That is not what was said. What was suggested is that, if GW wanted to reduce the model count in games, they could simply have used the points values from 8th and multiplied them by a percentage across the board.

Over the course of 8th edition the points of various units went and down in (often belated) response to the evolution of the in-game meta. It was far from perfect, but the relative totals were at least explicable.

Cerve wrote:

Guys...giving a flat value in points is the worst way to balance a game! It is not how it works

Cool. You want to pass that knowledge on to GW?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Guys...giving a flat value in points is the worst way to balance a game! It is not how it works

Cool. You want to pass that knowledge on to GW?

GW already know that. They just missed a bit on SM, but in 9th the player worth way more than the list so it's playable.

So coming back to what's effective this edition, have you had games this weekend? Which models were effective? I've got my third Venom and an old Raider (2nd hand) for really cheap to transform into a Reaper. My next buy is a couple Ravagers, as I have none, what do you think?

This wednesday I have a 1000pt game vs an Eldar player, what do you think is good vs those (worse than us) elves?

Denegaar wrote:

So coming back to what's effective this edition, have you had games this weekend? Which models were effective? I've got my third Venom and an old Raider (2nd hand) for really cheap to transform into a Reaper. My next buy is a couple Ravagers, as I have none, what do you think?

This wednesday I have a 1000pt game vs an Eldar player, what do you think is good vs those (worse than us) elves?

How are you doing those reaper conversions? I've got a few raiders that is like to do the same with but im not sure how.

I'd love to try out the reapers, they look strong on paper and the moving and shoot without heavy penalty seems good now. The question I still don't know is if they be better as BH or dark techno?

Is there a thread where someone has mathhammered them out?

GreyArea wrote:

Denegaar wrote:

So coming back to what's effective this edition, have you had games this weekend? Which models were effective? I've got my third Venom and an old Raider (2nd hand) for really cheap to transform into a Reaper. My next buy is a couple Ravagers, as I have none, what do you think?

This wednesday I have a 1000pt game vs an Eldar player, what do you think is good vs those (worse than us) elves?

How are you doing those reaper conversions? I've got a few raiders that is like to do the same with but im not sure how.

I'd love to try out the reapers, they look strong on paper and the moving and shoot without heavy penalty seems good now. The question I still don't know is if they be better as BH or dark techno?

Is there a thread where someone has mathhammered them out?

I don't know yet, I've found an old Raider (3rd edition I think) unpainted for really cheap, si I guess I'll get some knives and sails, and a huge cannon somewhere... I was thinking something similar to an Eldar Fire Prism.

People is running them as Dark Technomancers, but I guess rerolling ones would be nice too.

I finally got in a game of "full" 9th, and tried out a few units. Some things I noted:

-Heat Lance Scourges are powerful, but absolutely glass-hammer. I did not Fire and Fade them correctly, and they died as you would expect. They WILL be in my next list though, that firepower that can sit in DS until needed was very nice

-Reaper was much better than a Lance Ravager. The swingy D6 shots can be mitigated with a Re-roll, and the extra few wounds helped it stay in the top bracket longer. Will make it into the next list

-MVP of the match was Sslyth. The flexability to exist in a location for 21 points was nice, and the enemy had to really overkill it to ensure it died.

-Not sure about Venoms, even with Flayed Skull. The mobility was very handy, and I enjoyed the "free" 3" movement of disembarking was key to a first turn charge. But the damage output was not great, even with the "ignores cover". Dont know if its worth going to Raiders, but having a Dissie would have made more impact in the game

After many games in 9th, 1k -2k. Venoms are not worth it in Kabals other than 1 or 2 just for mobility and sitting on objectives. In DT they still can do some damage.

Poison help, this is clear. Kabal poison should be -1ap at least.

We need a Doc type thing.

Kabals re-roll wounds of 1 with poison weapons
Wyches -1ap with poison
Coven +1 to wound with poison

fisheyes wrote:

I finally got in a game of "full" 9th, and tried out a few units. Some things I noted:

-Heat Lance Scourges are powerful, but absolutely glass-hammer. I did not Fire and Fade them correctly, and they died as you would expect. They WILL be in my next list though, that firepower that can sit in DS until needed was very nice

-Reaper was much better than a Lance Ravager. The swingy D6 shots can be mitigated with a Re-roll, and the extra few wounds helped it stay in the top bracket longer. Will make it into the next list

-MVP of the match was Sslyth. The flexability to exist in a location for 21 points was nice, and the enemy had to really overkill it to ensure it died.

-Not sure about Venoms, even with Flayed Skull. The mobility was very handy, and I enjoyed the "free" 3" movement of disembarking was key to a first turn charge. But the damage output was not great, even with the "ignores cover". Dont know if its worth going to Raiders, but having a Dissie would have made more impact in the game

Would you not consider taking the kabalite stuff as BH for that extra durability or did you find that extra 3" movement from Flayed skull impactful with all the objectives and new board size?

Can you even get heat lances into melta range from DS? I thought they needed to be within half range and they need to DS at least 9" away? I'd love to be wrong on this cause if you can get those "pick the highest dmg" dice from DS is think about taking them.

GreyArea wrote:

fisheyes wrote:

I finally got in a game of "full" 9th, and tried out a few units. Some things I noted:

-Heat Lance Scourges are powerful, but absolutely glass-hammer. I did not Fire and Fade them correctly, and they died as you would expect. They WILL be in my next list though, that firepower that can sit in DS until needed was very nice

-Reaper was much better than a Lance Ravager. The swingy D6 shots can be mitigated with a Re-roll, and the extra few wounds helped it stay in the top bracket longer. Will make it into the next list

-MVP of the match was Sslyth. The flexability to exist in a location for 21 points was nice, and the enemy had to really overkill it to ensure it died.

-Not sure about Venoms, even with Flayed Skull. The mobility was very handy, and I enjoyed the "free" 3" movement of disembarking was key to a first turn charge. But the damage output was not great, even with the "ignores cover". Dont know if its worth going to Raiders, but having a Dissie would have made more impact in the game

Would you not consider taking the kabalite stuff as BH for that extra durability or did you find that extra 3" movement from Flayed skull impactful with all the objectives and new board size?

Can you even get heat lances into melta range from DS? I thought they needed to be within half range and they need to DS at least 9" away? I'd love to be wrong on this cause if you can get those "pick the highest dmg" dice from DS is think about taking them.

Honestly, this depends if you are taking Ravagers and Reapers too, if yes then BH, if not and its just a small 1-3 venoms patrol for speed then no.

@GreyArea, that extra 3" actually helps A LOT. I went with 4 venoms, on a list built around mobility and objective grabbing (only had 1 Ravager and 1 Reaper, so not much damage output).

Venoms were able to help screen the edges where the enemy outflanked two Exocrenes, then position for Linebreaker and ultimately charge an Exocrene to stop it from shooting more vulnerable/valuable targets.

I think the 4 venoms only put out 4-5 wounds over the whole game, but they were pretty good at getting into scoring positions, or holding objectives (with troops inside ready to spill out).

As for the Heat Lances, they did not make it into Melta range. But AP-5 with Damage D6 is still scary, especially when targetting the same unit as a clutch of Taloi (also with heat lances). They made a Hive Tyrant cry (and helped score Witchhunter)

I went Haywire scourge and they worked as well as they ever did. Dont regret taking them. Do regret playing vs AdMech (Robots are now bonkers with the new shooting in melee rules! My friend set one squad up on his home objective, and was able to reach a second objective turn 1 and camp there too. Once locked down, thats 18 shots per model!).

I tried reavers, and they worked for what there were supposed to do. Boards are so small now that they got into melee turn 1. Next time, I will try to hide them until turn 2 as I want to use eviscerating flyby and I cant quite get all the way across the board turn 1. As soon as they killed the squad there were in melee with, and I didnt have another squad I could consolidate into, they died. But that was ok. Every shot at them was a shot not at my wyches. And they dont count as vehicles, so they dont contribute to "bring it down".

I do want to go back to talking big scale for a moment.

I am concerned with the sentiment of "We are ok in 9th, its now just more about the player than the army". Look, I get it, people want this to be a competitive game. But MOST games played will be friendly games between mates on a weekend. Most people that play (ie, those that dont buy models with or without the intention of playing, that simply never play - this is probably the largest group of buyers) will never go to even a local tournament. There will be very little in the way of tactics, very little in the way of changing armies out (you have the models you have, and thats it), very little variety in the armies they face (same few friends with the same few army lists). These are probably 90% of your players. Its certainly true for me and my friends, and the group of friends I played with before.

In light of that, shouldnt the rules mean that for low level play, every army is, give or take, equally able to take every other with only basic tactics? Sure, slamming glass cannons like DE into anvil armies shouldnt work. But tactics should be "uses cover and tries not to let themselves become exposed - cares less about primary objectives, focuses on secondary objectives" rather than "You didnt hide one inch to the left on turn 2, thats when you lost".

Saying "Its all about the players, not the armies" for 9th edition does not look good for causal play. High level meta can evolve out of low level mechanics just fine, but if everything outside of one or 2 core armies and races is balanced on a razor edge, then you are just shutting people out of the game.

I dont know, maybe I am way off the mark, and as a casual player, I should put up with either constantly losing to AdMech, Tau and Thousand Sons OR learn to win tournaments and then thrash my friends all the time. But I cant help but think of starcraft, where you have 3 very different armies, and yet bronze league can win against bronze league and the game ALSO has a very high level competitive scene. And somehow they alter the meta based on the high level stuff while still allowing bronze league players the ability to play whatever army they want.

I mean, Ive been playing with these friends for years now. I know the basics. I use cover as best as I can. I try not to charge into the Tau gunline. In 8th, I would try and tie up AdMech in melee. I feel like I should have more than a single win from a game where my opponent didnt roll more than a 4 all game AND I misread Power from Pain and gave it to my raider too. My game of 9th so far was even more of a walk over than I was used to. Low level reports are saying similar things.

Great, one high level player ranked highly with some high level strategy in one tournament recently. Maybe the competitive scene isnt dead for DE. But I dont know if I can go on losing over and over for another 4 years against the same 3 armies.

For what its worth, they all seem fairly static too. A few more wins for each of them, but generally they all won/lost verses each other consistently.

Being a "model company" didnt work for GW. But I am really worried if they think catering to official tournaments ONLY will.

I played my first 9th edition game and we chose an Incursion (1000 points) to get acquainted with the new rules, missions, and battlefield size. One interesting thing I noticed was how good PoF Wracks with Black Cornucopians were for objectives. With the new minimum battlefield size of 44" x 30", all the objectives had to be placed within 9" of a board edge. This meant that a Wrack unit redeploying due to the stratagem could claim any objective, as the unit was both within 6" of a board edge and 3" of the objective. This makes them really good in 1000 point battles.

Now as soon as you bump up the points to Strike Force all the objectives are further than 9" away from the board edge so this doesn't work.

fisheyes wrote:

I finally got in a game of "full" 9th, and tried out a few units. Some things I noted:

-Heat Lance Scourges are powerful, but absolutely glass-hammer. I did not Fire and Fade them correctly, and they died as you would expect. They WILL be in my next list though, that firepower that can sit in DS until needed was very nice

I think Heat Lances will grow in utility as time goes on. 3 wound Terminators and Outriders are perfect targets. You only get one damage reroll per Shooting Phase.