The Current Meta Going into 9th

Out of interest, do you think all Marines now having a minimum of 2 wounds apiece will cause problems for us?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Out of interest, do you think all Marines now having a minimum of 2 wounds apiece will cause problems for us?

Not them directly, but I'm pretty scared of Terminators. 3 Wounds, 2+ save it's hard for us :-/

krayd wrote:

WC made a post about new codices and kits, stating that the changes to weapon stats will be applied to chaos and xenos equivalents. So, this should mean that our power swords will get +1S and it might mean that heat lances will get +2D at melta range. Granted, we might not actually get those changes until our codex drops.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Even if we do get those changes, we'll still be largely obsolete until whenever we do get a codex. All imperium and chaos armies will get the updated weapon profiles with the marines, so while still not as stupidly broken as marines are, they will be able to dwell in that meta.

Points, of course, will go up to reflect the increased effectiveness, but I am not confident that points increase will be relative to the points values of 8th (and what the current 9th points costs are reflections of). If you're making theretically everything more powerful, then those now reason to stick to the same costing formulas they currently employ. For instance if everything gets 40% better (whatever that means), you could have everything go up by only 25% relative to 8th edition standards.

I was really impressed by the launch of 8th. While the Indexes were bland, they put everyone on the same terms (at least as best as they can manage). Why they decided to go back to their old launch strategy AT THE SAME TIME they decided they wanted to intentionally crank the power of everything, starting with the most powerful codex they've ever written, I'll never know.

But don't worry Xenos players, GW assures us in that article that we will get a 9th edition codex. I didn't know that was a concern, but they want us to feel warm and fuzzy about it. "You'll be god-awful for a while, but when you get your book, we'll make you good too."

The first half of this edition is going to suck.

The 2W is not a problem B.c i'm taking 9-12 Dis cannons lol. But the HUGE increase is +1D weapons will be the real problem. When you add +1D to 5-6 major weapons that just means anything with more the 1 wound has gotten weaker.

amishprn86 wrote:

The 2W is not a problem B.c i'm taking 9-12 Dis cannons lol. But the HUGE increase is +1D weapons will be the real problem. When you add +1D to 5-6 major weapons that just means anything with more the 1 wound has gotten weaker.

It also means FNP on 1 wound models is next to useless. Devastators with 4 heavy bolters is a serious threat to everything in our army.

With (amongst other things) Heavy Bolters getting 2 Damage, Venoms are looking even less attractive.

I'm just so, so tired of Marines getting all the shiny new toys with a vague suggestion that other factions will get something similar in future.

Oh, Marines are getting a second Codex in 8th? I'm sure you'll get one to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting supplements for all their sub-factions? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting new stratagems, relics and warlord traits from a campaign? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting a slew of new units? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting buffed stats for their weapons and models? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.

Just slow down, for the love of God, GW. The last year has been a ridiculous onslaught of new boosts and buffs for Marines that they do not need and it's exhausting. There are other factions in the game and the current laser focus on one - with scraps thrown to others - is genuinely turning players away.

Burnage wrote:

I'm just so, so tired of Marines getting all the shiny new toys with a vague suggestion that other factions will get something similar in future.

Oh, Marines are getting a second Codex in 8th? I'm sure you'll get one to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting supplements for all their sub-factions? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting new stratagems, relics and warlord traits from a campaign? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting a slew of new units? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.
Oh, Marines are getting buffed stats for their weapons and models? I'm sure you'll get some to come up to par.

Just slow down, for the love of God, GW. The last year has been a ridiculous onslaught of new boosts and buffs for Marines that they do not need and it's exhausting. There are other factions in the game and the current laser focus on one - with scraps thrown to others - is genuinely turning players away.

Very much this.

I appreciate that Marines are supposed to be super-human, but there are a lot of non-Marine units that are also supposed to be exceptionally skilled and to wield technology that resembles magic even to the advanced Imperium.

I guess what I'm saying is that is seems like the supposed elites in any non-Marine armies are falling further and further behind, to the point where they've become little more than chaff. A unit of Scourges is barely even on the table before it's blown off again because a Marine coughed in its general direction. Similarly, very few of the Eldar Aspect Warriors looked even remotely elite compared with Marines, and that was before the latter were given an additional wound.

Hell, our most advanced melee weapons are now barely better than a standard Marine Power Sword or Axe (and many others are vastly worse).

And seriously - Marines got an extra wound but Necron Immortals didn't?

Anyway, in addition to all that, this is seemingly being rolled out on a codex-by-codex basis. So Marines get to enjoy all their new stuff almost immediately, whilst every other faction is forced to wait months or years even for even a faint shadow of the buffs marines just got.

Mmm I think we are overreacting a bit about them.
I mean, Heavy Bolters got 2 damages!....o-ok, I was already facing 30 Stalker Bolters, and EVERY non-marines army is suited for anti-marines. So...yeah, I was facing a lot of D2 weapons even before, nothing new here.
It's not that they're buffing what was already strong, it's simply that they're levelling up useless units and weapons. More HB? Ok, as said we were facing a lot of D2 already, it's not that this fire is growing up. Tactics, Sternguard, Vanguards? Ok, we alteady had Intercessors and Sanguinary Guards so it's fine. It's not something "added" to existing lists, it's a buff for the weaks, it's a VARIETY buff.
We will see more Sternguards instead of Intercessors? Fine with that. More HB instead of Stalker? It's ok. 6 Centurions instead of 12 Aggressors? Ok with that.
And yes, finally, we will see some non-BA Jumppack units on the table.

What REALLY concerns me are two different things which actually ARE buffs on existing good choices (one is sort-of-it):
1) Eradicators and new meltas. I like the Melta being 2 shots, it was always inferior to other weapons before. But 4 shots per model? These guys are already undercosted, they really needs a nice raise in points!;
2) Terminators. Ok guys, there's a reason on why Terminators are 2 wounds 2+ and Aggressors 3 wounds 3+: because 3 wounds and 2+ would have been too much! Think about the cost of Paladins And right bow we will have 3W T4 2+/5++ OR 3W T4 1+/4++ with every combination between chapters?! Seriously?! IronHands with FnP5+++ and stuff, RavenGuard infiltrating melee Terminators, WhiteScars for making them fast and agile, SW for the variety, BA rerolling charges and stratagems, Salamanders with buffs etc...those stats means no poison, no saturation (while you can kill Aggressors with poison, good luck with 2+ saves), bad Disintegrators exchange (because 2D on 3W is bad; nontheless 1+ with new Stormshields means 4+ save straightfoward) we just don't have a single weapon/unit capable to fight against those guys. We just have no answers at all. DT Reapers? Ap 0. Etc...
And think about GK, which their Terminators are even Troops. Plague Marines? 2W Fnp5+, objective secure. Blightlords Terminators, good luck killing them. Butchers Terminators who are fast.
There are just so many combinations that feels kinda bad thinking on them.

Our last chances is getting some buff in terms of weapons (Incubi at D2 straight, D3 on 6+? Dissies at D3? etc), expecially Heatlances that would be good at Assault2 and minum D3 on 9" range.
We'll see. GW really needs to be good with fixes and points this october.

Cerve wrote:

Mmm I think we are overreacting a bit about them.
I mean, Heavy Bolters got 2 damages!....o-ok, I was already facing 30 Stalker Bolters, and EVERY non-marines army is suited for anti-marines. So...yeah, I was facing a lot of D2 weapons even before, nothing new here.
It's not that they're buffing what was already strong, it's simply that they're levelling up useless units and weapons. More HB? Ok, as said we were facing a lot of D2 already, it's not that this fire is growing up. Tactics, Sternguard, Vanguards? Ok, we alteady had Intercessors and Sanguinary Guards so it's fine. It's not something "added" to existing lists, it's a buff for the weaks, it's a VARIETY buff.
We will see more Sternguards instead of Intercessors? Fine with that. More HB instead of Stalker? It's ok. 6 Centurions instead of 12 Aggressors? Ok with that.
And yes, finally, we will see some non-BA Jumppack units on the table.

What REALLY concerns me are two different things which actually ARE buffs on existing good choices (one is sort-of-it):
1) Eradicators and new meltas. I like the Melta being 2 shots, it was always inferior to other weapons before. But 4 shots per model? These guys are already undercosted, they really needs a nice raise in points!;
2) Terminators. Ok guys, there's a reason on why Terminators are 2 wounds 2+ and Aggressors 3 wounds 3+: because 3 wounds and 2+ would have been too much! Think about the cost of Paladins  And right bow we will have 3W T4 2+/5++ OR 3W T4 1+/4++ with every combination between chapters?! Seriously?! IronHands with FnP5+++ and stuff, RavenGuard infiltrating melee Terminators, WhiteScars for making them fast and agile, SW for the variety, BA rerolling charges and stratagems, Salamanders with buffs etc...those stats means no poison, no saturation (while you can kill Aggressors with poison, good luck with 2+ saves), bad Disintegrators exchange (because 2D on 3W is bad; nontheless 1+ with new Stormshields means 4+ save straightfoward) we just don't have a  single weapon/unit capable to fight against those guys. We just have no answers at all. DT Reapers? Ap 0. Etc...
And think about GK, which their Terminators are even Troops. Plague Marines? 2W Fnp5+, objective secure. Blightlords Terminators, good luck killing them. Butchers Terminators who are fast.
There are just so many combinations that feels kinda bad thinking on them.

Our last chances is getting some buff in terms of weapons (Incubi at D2 straight, D3 on 6+? Dissies at D3? etc), expecially Heatlances that would be good at Assault2 and minum D3 on 9" range.
We'll see. GW really needs to be good with fixes and points this october.

Stalker Bolter can not be on 2+ to hit units, they can not be spammed with on everything, they are also not 3 shots but 1 shot that can be 2 shots, they are only Str 4 compare to Str 5. A HB makes a Stalker Bolter look like a chimp when shooting light vehicles and infantry.

With Marines getting 2W, you will see HB Devs and HB's on units now. Also IG can basically take 2-3 HB on every tank. Its not hard to put 15-20 HBs in a list. Then look at armies like SoB or Salamanders, SoB can easily have 50 HB's, Salamanders can have +1 to wound.

But... there are also a lot of other guns that are getting +1, or +2, heck some are even doubling their SHOTS, and others are getting +1 and +2 to their Str, there are some even getting both, or all 3. That is the real concern, Some guns got +1str and +1D, or +1/+2 shots and +Str, or even added AP.

amishprn86 wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Mmm I think we are overreacting a bit about them.
I mean, Heavy Bolters got 2 damages!....o-ok, I was already facing 30 Stalker Bolters, and EVERY non-marines army is suited for anti-marines. So...yeah, I was facing a lot of D2 weapons even before, nothing new here.
It's not that they're buffing what was already strong, it's simply that they're levelling up useless units and weapons. More HB? Ok, as said we were facing a lot of D2 already, it's not that this fire is growing up. Tactics, Sternguard, Vanguards? Ok, we alteady had Intercessors and Sanguinary Guards so it's fine. It's not something "added" to existing lists, it's a buff for the weaks, it's a VARIETY buff.
We will see more Sternguards instead of Intercessors? Fine with that. More HB instead of Stalker? It's ok. 6 Centurions instead of 12 Aggressors? Ok with that.
And yes, finally, we will see some non-BA Jumppack units on the table.

What REALLY concerns me are two different things which actually ARE buffs on existing good choices (one is sort-of-it):
1) Eradicators and new meltas. I like the Melta being 2 shots, it was always inferior to other weapons before. But 4 shots per model? These guys are already undercosted, they really needs a nice raise in points!;
2) Terminators. Ok guys, there's a reason on why Terminators are 2 wounds 2+ and Aggressors 3 wounds 3+: because 3 wounds and 2+ would have been too much! Think about the cost of Paladins  And right bow we will have 3W T4 2+/5++ OR 3W T4 1+/4++ with every combination between chapters?! Seriously?! IronHands with FnP5+++ and stuff, RavenGuard infiltrating melee Terminators, WhiteScars for making them fast and agile, SW for the variety, BA rerolling charges and stratagems, Salamanders with buffs etc...those stats means no poison, no saturation (while you can kill Aggressors with poison, good luck with 2+ saves), bad Disintegrators exchange (because 2D on 3W is bad; nontheless 1+ with new Stormshields means 4+ save straightfoward) we just don't have a  single weapon/unit capable to fight against those guys. We just have no answers at all. DT Reapers? Ap 0. Etc...
And think about GK, which their Terminators are even Troops. Plague Marines? 2W Fnp5+, objective secure. Blightlords Terminators, good luck killing them. Butchers Terminators who are fast.
There are just so many combinations that feels kinda bad thinking on them.

Our last chances is getting some buff in terms of weapons (Incubi at D2 straight, D3 on 6+? Dissies at D3? etc), expecially Heatlances that would be good at Assault2 and minum D3 on 9" range.
We'll see. GW really needs to be good with fixes and points this october.

Stalker Bolter can not be on 2+ to hit units, they can not be spammed with on everything, they are also not 3 shots but 1 shot that can be 2 shots, they are only Str 4 compare to Str 5. A HB makes a Stalker Bolter look like a chimp when shooting light vehicles and infantry.

With Marines getting 2W, you will see HB Devs and HB's on units now. Also IG can basically take 2-3 HB on every tank. Its not hard to put 15-20 HBs in a list. Then look at armies like SoB or Salamanders, SoB can easily have 50 HB's, Salamanders can have +1 to wound.

But... there are also a lot of other guns that are getting +1, or +2, heck some are even doubling their SHOTS, and others are getting +1 and +2 to their Str, there are some even getting both, or all 3. That is the real concern, Some guns got +1str and +1D, or +1/+2 shots and +Str, or even added AP.

Ok but HB are just special weapons. Do you field 3x5 Devastators? Fine, they're 36 shots that you can charge and both pinning or killing easy. 30-40 Intercessors are 30-40 shots with OS that if you charge them you're getting your ass beaten back between their attacks and the Fist/Hammer on Sergeant.
Devastators don't move so much, Intercessors move and captures objectives (which in 9th it's everything).
HB are S5, but Stalkers are AP-2.
Devastators doesn't move, Intercessors don't care about moving.Devastators doesn't give you board control, you can easely playing around them. And WAY more killable than Intercessors (which are 15 models vs 20-40).

Honestly, I would prefer way more an HB spam. For me, the real clue is on Terminators, not on HBs. Devastators have no OS, are few killable models, they stay back and suffer blos. Centurions are super expensive, slow and avoidable. Any other platform doesn't spam HBs so I'm fine with that.
One of my common opponets plays IF Stalker spam. They move, hit on 4s, MaaterChapter back, any 6s double hit, D3 on first turn on veichles. So yes, I would LOVE to see more HB and less of these guys on the table
I fear Terminators more. We just have no answers for them.

You missed the point, so what if they take 15, thats still equal to 22.5 Intercessors fire power, and those can be just put on... bikes, tanks, speeders, Tactical marines, Devs, Terminators, etc.. they are everywhere. They are not sacrificing to take them.

And you are forgetting STR 5! Str 5 vs Str 4 is a huge deal vs T5, 16.7% more chance to wound per dice, on top of that it wounds Wracks easier too.

Also with things like Heavy Flamers getting +1st and maybe all vehicles getting 12" range, that is also a huge change, wounding out vehicles on 3+ and auto hitting is damning when you remember they can be on 24" movement units, or DS/Outflank for almost free.

PSS, i'd rather see stalker bolters, my Ravagers kills them better than 4W bikes, 6W speeder, or Drop poding Oldmarines that are now better at shooting than Intercessors vs us.

Its not 1 thing, its many things like I said the most important thing is all the extra "Shots, str, AP, D" at the same time. Stalker Bolters are nothing, no one cares about them anymore.

To be honest, I am having doubts about playing anytime soon at all, because of different reasons. First of all, Covid makes it a bit of a challenge. Then there's the new edition. Especially with the new point costs for our weapons it's clear GW didn't at all look at what they gave the points to. They haven't decided the new point cost based on the stats of the weapon, they decided by simply rounding it up or down to the nearest multiple of 5 points. Zero thought has been put in it. And I don't feel like putting in much effort to play a game during a pandemic when the rules for my army are basically GW saying "Oh yeah, right, those need some points as well I guess...".

I'll wait until the 9th edition codex is here, and just focus on building/painting my models and some terrain. Plenty of gray plastic sprues to get creative with. But I definitely understand why new players would have a hard time picking up an army like DE at the moment.

Gelmir wrote:

To be honest, I am having doubts about playing anytime soon at all, because of different reasons. First of all, Covid makes it a bit of a challenge. Then there's the new edition. Especially with the new point costs for our weapons it's clear GW didn't at all look at what they gave the points to. They haven't decided the new point cost based on the stats of the weapon, they decided by simply rounding it up or down to the nearest multiple of 5 points. Zero thought has been put in it. And I don't feel like putting in much effort to play a game during a pandemic when the rules for my army are basically GW saying "Oh yeah, right, those need some points as well I guess...".

I'll wait until the 9th edition codex is here, and just focus on building/painting my models and some terrain. Plenty of gray plastic sprues to get creative with. But I definitely understand why new players would have a hard time picking up an army like DE at the moment.

A major overhaul like the one we're seeing should be "global" for all factions... it's just frustrating to see how just the Marines are getting better and better while we are outdated for some years now. We had an Index before at least...

I think the army is fun, at least casually right now... not sure if I want to dive into competitive stuff without the codex either, it doesn't look fair. We still have good options though.

IMO, after seeing how powerful Marines can be right now, being tabled on turn 3 vs turn 4 still isn't fun, but doesn't change much. We are not competitive at higher levels right now at all.

amishprn86 wrote:

You missed the point, so what if they take 15, thats still equal to 22.5 Intercessors fire power, and those can be just put on... bikes, tanks, speeders, Tactical marines, Devs, Terminators, etc.. they are everywhere. They are not sacrificing to take them.

And you are forgetting STR 5! Str 5 vs Str 4 is a huge deal vs T5, 16.7% more chance to wound per dice, on top of that it wounds Wracks easier too.

Also with things like Heavy Flamers getting +1st and maybe all vehicles getting 12" range, that is also a huge change, wounding out vehicles on 3+ and auto hitting is damning when you remember they can be on 24" movement units, or DS/Outflank for almost free.

PSS, i'd rather see stalker bolters, my Ravagers kills them better than 4W bikes, 6W speeder, or Drop poding Oldmarines that are now better at shooting than Intercessors vs us.

Its not 1 thing, its many things like I said the most important thing is all the extra "Shots, str, AP, D" at the same time. Stalker Bolters are nothing, no one cares about them anymore.

Hey, 2000 points limits is for eveyone. Of course they're losing something! If you want to play all those choices the Marine is losing TROOPS, which is an huge deal in 9th.
And we have to see the points raising (again) for them.

S5 is good on us, true, but they still lesser shots so it's ok.


I'm not so afraid about these changes if I must be honest. Of course if GW brokes the games with bad points I will rant too. But for now, I'm not afraid. Actually I'm kinda happy to see more variety on the table. So yes, they're levelling up some useless choices, not buffing something already broken. So I'm fine with that.



PS: ehm....there's a lot of Drukhari players that are making the cut right now. We ARE competitive. The thing is 9th is more about skill than autopilot, so.....yes, tell me that I'm rude, I don't care. I see myself as a positive one that study good players making results. So if being positive in 2020 is bad, oh well I'm a bad, bad guy

Personally I have hope that Dissies will get something good, based on the point increases.

I dont hold my breath for Lances coming back anytime soon. Damage D6 just doesnt cut it when compared to the new Multimeltas

Cerve wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Out of interest, do you think all Marines now having a minimum of 2 wounds apiece will cause problems for us?

Not them directly, but I'm pretty scared of Terminators. 3 Wounds, 2+ save it's hard for us :-/

That's what DT disintegrators are for.

I am going to keep an eye on the Cronos as the new rules come out and we see how the edition shapes up.  I think the spirit syphon will go up to a 12" range, like other flamers.  9th edition is all about fighting on top of objectives, and the Cronos can now shoot while engaged.  A Dark Technomancer/Obsessive Collectors Cronos wants to be in combat, shooting 2D6 (half auto hit) S3 (+1 to wound) -2 AP Damage 2 (D3+1 if you roll a 5 or 6 to wound).  If it destroys a model in melee, it heals D3+1 wounds.

Why no one read faqs? It's since 8th that Obsessive Collectors got an Errata changing from "model" to "unit".

GW wrote:

‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around.

Awesome! Can you recommend another game to play until yours is ready?

Barking Agatha wrote:

GW wrote:

‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around.

Awesome! Can you recommend another game to play until yours is ready?

I agree 100%

I can't understand the acceptance of a status quo where a 'new game' is released, but some factions might not get their rules for a year. This is particularly galling when we know (from play testers) that the codexes are done, and GW could easily release them initially through their otherwise pointless app.

I'm witholding judgement for now. GW has made more than a few surprising moves lately. Releasing these stat changes after just releasing CA2020 is a bit puzzling. This seems like a sloppy edition change, considering how similarly 8th and 9th function.

False Son wrote:

I'm witholding judgement for now.  GW has made more than a few surprising moves lately.  Releasing these stat changes after just releasing CA2020 is a bit puzzling. This seems like a sloppy edition change, considering how similarly 8th and 9th function.

This is, by far, their worst edition changeover I've been a part of.

8th was by far their best. They decided to scrap that very functional model and roll out an abomination. They took marines and cranked them to 11 last editon. Then thought it would be fun to begin this edition by cranking them to 12.

But don't worry,  eventually we'll eventually get cranked to 10, so that'll be rad.

You know they've done an absolutely crap job this edition when all my space marine friends want to start another army so they don't have to play the joke army any more. Nobody except GW thinks it's fun.

Wait a minute: SM in 8th were way more stronger than now, and your friends wants to sell them in 9th were they're just winnable? I don't get it.


And I guess everyone here forget a little thing called "Covid". Of course this changeover have something wrong, there's a GLOBAL PANDEMIC in act right now