Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

Darklord wrote:

1 : Strategem for poisonned weapons with real bonus.
And Please not these things like reroll on 1 or +1x on 6

2 : More transport Capacity
For the venom I could accept to sacrifice the gunner and top Canon for this like this illustration on Bols :

Venon and Incubi:

3 : More special weapons slots for our troops units, at least 2 per 5 models units.
Unlucky that couldn't work on wyches and a damned kit with only 3 arena weapons (thanks GW).

about the famous ''more transport capacity'' for our venom (and even Raiders), i think you've found a good solution to please a lot of people: You have to choose between an additional gun (the top one) or an additional room for a model.....i like this idea! Choose more firepower or more transport capacity! but never both!

Kalmah wrote:

Darklord wrote:

1 : Strategem for poisonned weapons with real bonus.
And Please not these things like reroll on 1 or +1x on 6

2 : More transport Capacity
For the venom I could accept to sacrifice the gunner and top Canon for this like this illustration on Bols :

Venon and Incubi:

3 : More special weapons slots for our troops units, at least 2 per 5 models units.
Unlucky that couldn't work on wyches and a damned kit with only 3 arena weapons (thanks GW).

about the famous ''more transport capacity'' for our venom (and even Raiders), i think you've found a good solution to please a lot of people: You have to choose between an additional gun (the top one) or an additional room for a model.....i like this idea! Choose more firepower or more transport capacity! but never both!

I like this idea. It would make sense that if the gunner isn't needed anymore, there will be one extra spot available.

1. Vect--- We should have our Overlord in our army and playable to us as other armies do. if they only gave us Vect and the new Lelith model, I would be very very happy. I have been wanting him back for al ong time.
2. At least 1 new unit--- I do not care what it is, what FoS it fits in, what it does, anything... 1 new kit/model/unit... Not Lelith, something brand new
3. More army traits to choose from--- More Kabal, Cult, Coven option with mainstream traits, relics, strats, etc to accompany them

Kalmah wrote:

Darklord wrote:

1 : Strategem for poisonned weapons with real bonus.
And Please not these things like reroll on 1 or +1x on 6

2 : More transport Capacity
For the venom I could accept to sacrifice the gunner and top Canon for this like this illustration on Bols :

Venon and Incubi:

3 : More special weapons slots for our troops units, at least 2 per 5 models units.
Unlucky that couldn't work on wyches and a damned kit with only 3 arena weapons (thanks GW).

about the famous ''more transport capacity'' for our venom (and even Raiders), i think you've found a good solution to please a lot of people: You have to choose between an additional gun (the top one) or an additional room for a model.....i like this idea! Choose more firepower or more transport capacity! but never both!

Why always this negative way of solving something? You know it would also work if you give the 5 man transport a buff.
Still, GW is making this trade quite regularly, but normally 1 gunner equals 5 or 6 transport capacity. Look at Ravager vs Raider, Starweaver vs Voidweaver, Archaeopter Stratoraptor vs Archaeopter Transvector,...
I am not saying it is realistic, but why exactly do you want the Venom to be treated worse than every other unit? It already has already a lower transport capacity than all other small transports in the game.^^

because don't forget that our bladevanes are stronger now, so we can still charge and do some damage, and open top means the additional model can still shoot so.....no real let down here
just an option that can please anyone, and by doing so, no point upgrade needed.

Top 3 things? Honestly, the more I get into my AoS Sylvaneth army, the more I am finding similarities, so several of my top wants involve making us more Sylvaneth in our rules (lore we are poles apart).

1. Mandrakes get Tree Rev rules (one free dice reroll per phase, repositioning instead of moving).
2. Some decent melee synergy between Succi and Wyches - I would rather see Incubi and Drazhar as anti-character units and Wyches/Succubi as general melee combatants. And I would add on some leadership stuff similar to Spite Revenant Outcasts (Spite Revs themselves cause all units within 3" to take -1 bravery, the equiv of leadership, and if they are within 8" of terrain, cause units within 3" of the terrain to roll 2 dice for leadership instead of 1, and use the higher result. The Outcast rule grants the roll of 2 die for each unit within 8" of the spites, and for each point that those dice exceed a units bravery score, the unit suffers a mortal wound. I would grant the -1 to all units within 3" to wyches, the 2 dice for leadership to the succi, and the outcast's MW rule as an item of wargear, not a relic, to the succi to be used in the psyker phase).
3. I dont use any coven. But I wouldnt mind seeing Wracks get the same rules as Dryads. Dryads, when taken in units of 12+, can add +1 to save rolls vs attacks. 12 is a weird number in 40k, but 10 is nice, especially with Wracks going up to 20 man squads, and presumably staying that way for the new codex.

Its a shame splinter weapons didnt get -1 AP across the board, but these 3 wants would mean:

Kabal remain shooty, wyches become more stabby in the sense that they now cause more models to flee when close to units, encouraging getting into the heart of the enemy and engaging as many as possible, and wracks remain tough and hard to remove without becoming any stronger at removing anything else. An elite unit gains some really nifty mobility, making them a nice counterpoint to incubi (Incubi are slow, insidious killers, methodical and unmatched. Mandrakes are the shockiest of shock troopers, and if they die in the reposition, what of it? Plenty more shadows out there...)

@koldan You're right. If we sacrificed the gunner you need more, like M18" and ability to disembark within 6" instead of 3".

Oaka wrote:

2) Venom gunboat squadrons: I still don't understand the splinter cannon change for Venoms.  Who is going to stay at 36" with their transports?  Give them 1-3 squadron and dark lance/disintegrator options at the cost of transport capacity, similar to Vypers for Craftworlds (who also get the fantastic Hornets).

Like they did for raider and ravager, GW could make a second venom kit to add a twin canon turret mounted on the back.

In the end we would have three version of venom:
Light with 1 weapon, M18", 6 passengers and disembarkation within 6"
Standart with 2 weapon and 5 passengers
Heavy with 3 weapons and no passengers

Darklord wrote:

@koldan You're right. If we sacrificed the gunner you need more, like M18" and ability to disembark within 6" instead of 3".

Oaka wrote:

2) Venom gunboat squadrons: I still don't understand the splinter cannon change for Venoms.  Who is going to stay at 36" with their transports?  Give them 1-3 squadron and dark lance/disintegrator options at the cost of transport capacity, similar to Vypers for Craftworlds (who also get the fantastic Hornets).

Like they did for raider and ravager, GW could make a second venom kit to add a twin canon turret mounted on the back.

In the end we would have three version of venom:
Light with 1 weapon, M18", 6 passengers and disembarkation within 6"
Standart with 2 weapon and 5 passengers
Heavy with 3 weapons and no passengers

Sounds cool, but no, never gonna happen.

I suppose if a Wave Serpent can transport 12 then perhaps a Raider should also. But a Venom at 5 feels about right to me.

Back in the day most HQ’s could take a retinue. An Archon should always have a retinue! We should be allowed a choice of 4 Wyches/Kabs/Incubi/Court.

Kalmah wrote:

because don't forget that our bladevanes are stronger now, so we can still charge and do some damage, and open top means the additional model can still shoot so.....no real let down here
just an option that can please anyone, and by doing so, no point upgrade needed.

Why no point increase? I actually would like the option to have an effective list that is not a pseudo horde. One opponent I play quite regularly against is an Astra Militarum player, I remember times when his models outnumbered mine by far, nowadays we have roughly the same number of models on the table when we want to be competitive. I want glass cannons, if I wanted to play a horde there are plenty of factions that tend to that playstyle better.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I suppose if a Wave Serpent can transport 12 then perhaps a Raider should also. But a Venom at 5 feels about right to me.

For the record, I'd be fine with that.

It would be cool if Venoms had 6 spaces, but so long as at least one of our transports has an extra slot for a character I think it's fine.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I suppose if a Wave Serpent can transport 12 then perhaps a Raider should also. But a Venom at 5 feels about right to me.

For the record, I'd be fine with that.

It would be cool if Venoms had 6 spaces, but so long as at least one of our transports has an extra slot for a character I think it's fine.

Me too. I’m completely on board. Raiders should be 12.

Koldan wrote:

Why no point increase? I actually would like the option to have an effective list that is not a pseudo horde.
/.../
I want glass cannons, if I wanted to play a horde there are plenty of factions that tend to that playstyle better.

Agreed. This sounds so much like how I feel about it.

Ever since Harlequins came out I’ve felt like they do the Drukhari thing better than Drukhari (being fragile with high speed an damage output). And to compensate it seems, to me, like Drukhari have been given buffs to things they aren’t really meant to do (survivability, lower points cost). I just have the feeling like we’re good at some things, but outshined in each field by some other army.

If I were to make a list of what I want in the new codex it’d really only be one thing (that I can think of right now);
What I’d really wish for is that we get something that we get to be the best at, in the game. Either something small/very specific (like having a weapon with the highest damage value in the game) or something that more generally applies to the army (like being able to put out more Mortal Wounds than anyone else, or having the quickest units).
Something that can be the One Sentence Pitch for drukhari, or the clear answer to when someone new asks
”What is Drukhari all about?” - Oh they’re quick as hell. Or: Well, their HQs are kind of fragile, but chop stuff up like nobodies business.
Some sort of clear purpose, that makes he army stand out, that the rules live up to letting us excel at

ursvamp wrote:

Koldan wrote:

Why no point increase? I actually would like the option to have an effective list that is not a pseudo horde.
/.../
I want glass cannons, if I wanted to play a horde there are plenty of factions that tend to that playstyle better.

Agreed. This sounds so much like how I feel about it.

Ever since Harlequins came out I’ve felt like they do the Drukhari thing better than Drukhari (being fragile with high speed an damage output). And to compensate it seems, to me, like Drukhari have been given buffs to things they aren’t really meant to do (survivability, lower points cost). I just have the feeling like we’re good at some things, but outshined in each field by some other army.

If I were to make a list of what I want in the new codex it’d really only be one thing (that I can think of right now);
What I’d really wish for is that we get something that we get to be the best at, in the game. Either something small/very specific (like having a weapon with the highest damage value in the game) or something that more generally applies to the army (like being able to put out more Mortal Wounds than anyone else, or having the quickest units).
Something that can be the One Sentence Pitch for drukhari, or the clear answer to when someone new asks
”What is Drukhari all about?” - Oh they’re quick as hell. Or: Well, their HQs are kind of fragile, but chop stuff up like nobodies business.
Some sort of clear purpose, that makes he army stand out, that the rules live up to letting us excel at

Our board control is already supreme. If you just allign us to every 9th Codex we will be beasts.
Drukhari is the best Codex right now for offering multiple threats AND control the board. We just have aged datasheets, nothing else.
We can't be like harlequins because...how harlequins will be then? We are a swarm, we always have been a swarm. But our swarm have wings and chassis. We swarm in veichles, we are THE MSU army. Even in background we're never "few soldiers", we dark the skies with our boats silouettes, we are a swarm of bees, we strike fast and retreat.
Harlequins of course do that better, but they're few guys. We are super exotic with mercs, cabals, wychcults and flesh horrors covens.

In 8th we were pretty different from both Harleys ad Craftworlds, and that will be the same in 9th (hopefully).

Cerve wrote:

ursvamp wrote:

Koldan wrote:

Why no point increase? I actually would like the option to have an effective list that is not a pseudo horde.
/.../
I want glass cannons, if I wanted to play a horde there are plenty of factions that tend to that playstyle better.

Agreed. This sounds so much like how I feel about it.

Ever since Harlequins came out I’ve felt like they do the Drukhari thing better than Drukhari (being fragile with high speed an damage output). And to compensate it seems, to me, like Drukhari have been given buffs to things they aren’t really meant to do (survivability, lower points cost). I just have the feeling like we’re good at some things, but outshined in each field by some other army.

If I were to make a list of what I want in the new codex it’d really only be one thing (that I can think of right now);
What I’d really wish for is that we get something that we get to be the best at, in the game. Either something small/very specific (like having a weapon with the highest damage value in the game) or something that more generally applies to the army (like being able to put out more Mortal Wounds than anyone else, or having the quickest units).
Something that can be the One Sentence Pitch for drukhari, or the clear answer to when someone new asks
”What is Drukhari all about?” - Oh they’re quick as hell. Or: Well, their HQs are kind of fragile, but chop stuff up like nobodies business.
Some sort of clear purpose, that makes he army stand out, that the rules live up to letting us excel at

Our board control is already supreme. If you just allign us to every 9th Codex we will be beasts.
Drukhari is the best Codex right now for offering multiple threats AND control the board. We just have aged datasheets, nothing else.
We can't be like harlequins because...how harlequins will be then? We are a swarm, we always have been a swarm. But our swarm have wings and chassis. We swarm in veichles, we are THE MSU army. Even in background we're never "few soldiers", we dark the skies with our boats silouettes, we are a swarm of bees, we strike fast and retreat.
Harlequins of course do that better, but they're few guys. We are super exotic with mercs, cabals, wychcults and flesh horrors covens.

In 8th we were pretty different from both Harleys ad Craftworlds, and that will be the same in 9th (hopefully).

Of course we are good at board control, that is exactly what hordes are great at, so not really unique. I would not be too sad if we get weaker there. We are still space pirates on a raid, not an invading army, but if I look at the tables and how we control the board with our superior numbers of units, it feels more like we are the army and the others the raiders.

But it is again the same discussion, for one the important thing is a strong codex, the other wants their fluffy space pirates as the most important thing. Even though I still don't want a garbage weak codex, I am happy enough if the Codex is strong enough, that we have a chance. We will most likely never agree.

Well, to be fair, I agree with what ursvamp said to such an extend that I already replaced my Wych Cult with a Harlequin detachment. Troupes instead of Wyches, a Starweaver instead of a Venom, Skyweavers instead of Reavers, and as a bonus it gives me the option to take a Psycher, and an excuse to put one or two Death Jesters on the field. (I just love their models.) So far it works great.
At the end of 8th edition, my list was even two Coven detachments and one Harlequins. I ditched both Cult and Kabal, and it was scary as f#ck.

Devilogical wrote:

In the end we would have three version of venom:
Light with 1 weapon, M18", 6 passengers and disembarkation within 6"
Standart with 2 weapon and 5 passengers
Heavy with 3 weapons and no passengers

Sounds cool,

Yes  

Devilogical wrote:

but no, never gonna happen.

And, yes...

You can talk about space pirates and raids until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t matter. You’re not playing a game of space pirates and you’re not playing a game of space pirates caught off guard by an army of space marines...even if it does sometimes feel that way! Lol

You’re playing warhammer 40k. We have to expect DE to fit the theme of the game mechanics. We can’t expect them to tailor the game to all the different types of armies that exist.

We don’t have to be the fastest just because they say we are fast and glass cannons don’t work! It’s not just about you and what you want for DE. It’s also about what the community want from an average game of 40k.

I hate to say it guys. But 40k isn’t a complicated game. It’s actually a very basic game these days. The room to be really artistic doesn’t work exist.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

You can talk about space pirates and raids until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t matter. You’re not playing a game of space pirates and you’re not playing a game of space pirates caught off guard by an army of space marines...even if it does sometimes feel that way! Lol

You’re playing warhammer 40k. We have to expect DE to fit the theme of the game mechanics. We can’t expect them to tailor the game to all the different types of armies that exist.

We don’t have to be the fastest just because they say we are fast and glass cannons don’t work! It’s not just about you and what you want for DE. It’s also about what the community want from an average game of 40k.

I hate to say it guys. But 40k isn’t a complicated game. It’s actually a very basic game these days. The room to be really artistic doesn’t work exist.

But, it never used to be like that. Thats what we are miffed about. DE USED to play different to SM to Necrons to Tau to Tyranids to Orks to Admech. And there used to be different ways to win based on that playstyle. And yeah, tournaments used to sometimes be a bit unbalanced. But the main playerbase was happy, because you got your glass cannons and your hoards and your melee focus and your small but unkillable and your vehicle focused, and you got your elimination VPs and your slaver VPs and so on.

Yeah, they simplified it for 8th, and more so for 9th. But they also homogenised the playstyle, but not the units. Now its a game of sitting on points, or having units sitting out in the open. There are VPs to be picked up for killing, but they never add up to things like Deploy Scramblers. And that playstyle benefits the "tanky and strong" armies. It pushes us towards Coven. It pushes the meta towards SM.

Its all very well you saying "its not an asymmetric game any more" but the whole point is "it used to be, the lore still is, and the statblocks still are, so what are they doing?"

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

You can talk about space pirates and raids until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t matter. You’re not playing a game of space pirates and you’re not playing a game of space pirates caught off guard by an army of space marines...even if it does sometimes feel that way! Lol

You’re playing warhammer 40k. We have to expect DE to fit the theme of the game mechanics. We can’t expect them to tailor the game to all the different types of armies that exist.

We don’t have to be the fastest just because they say we are fast and glass cannons don’t work! It’s not just about you and what you want for DE. It’s also about what the community want from an average game of 40k.

I hate to say it guys. But 40k isn’t a complicated game. It’s actually a very basic game these days. The room to be really artistic doesn’t work exist.

I get that we can't expect the game to cater to us, but I would still like a play experience closer to playing Harlequins (who apparently are allowed to be space pirates), than playing Death Guard in drag.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

You can talk about space pirates and raids until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t matter. You’re not playing a game of space pirates and you’re not playing a game of space pirates caught off guard by an army of space marines...even if it does sometimes feel that way! Lol

You’re playing warhammer 40k. We have to expect DE to fit the theme of the game mechanics. We can’t expect them to tailor the game to all the different types of armies that exist.

We don’t have to be the fastest just because they say we are fast and glass cannons don’t work! It’s not just about you and what you want for DE. It’s also about what the community want from an average game of 40k.

I hate to say it guys. But 40k isn’t a complicated game. It’s actually a very basic game these days. The room to be really artistic doesn’t work exist.

If you want a perfectly symmetrical game you should actually campaign for the removal of every faction besides Marines from the game. If you accept that different factions are part of the game you have to accept that the core game design is intended for asymmetrical game mechanics, else there would be no need for different factions. You can repeat the same phrases again and again trying to shout people down until you turn blue, it does not matter. If asymmetry is part of the game other people can voice their wish to make that aspect stronger, we are not asking for something that is not already part of the philosophy behind the game, even if you try to make it look like 40k is something like chess or go in that aspect.


But for something completely different, as some people may not have realized yet the night shield ability on our vehicles will most likely change, I am excited about how as it could have a big impact. The reason for me believing it, are the updated Forgeworld datasheets. Both had night shields in the 8th edition, the reaper kept it, but no rule written just pointing at the Drukhari codex for the rules. The Tantalus kept the old rule but it got renamed to twilight shield. If the night shields would stay, the renaming of the ability for the Tantalus does not make sense.

There isn’t a need for other armies. GW want to sell miniatures. The rules give us an excuse to buy them. More armies = more sales. But yes to be honest the game could exist if it were simply red marines vs blue marines. Wouldn’t be as enticing though would it.

The thing is there has always been a demand for balance...and that often means the lore must take 2nd stage. For me personally the game is in a very healthy place right now. Today it’s more about the skill of the player than the match up of the armies. Don’t get me wrong there will always be mismatches...but on the whole a good player with a good list can go up against anyone. I much prefer that and I also appreciate that GW have tried to reform the game to allow for easier games between new hobbyists because that means 40k will still be here for years to come and a day might come when they say hey, let’s spice things up a bit.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

There isn’t a need for other armies. GW want to sell miniatures. The rules give us an excuse to buy them. More armies = more sales. But yes to be honest the game could exist if it were simply red marines vs blue marines. Wouldn’t be as enticing though would it.

The thing is there has always been a demand for balance...and that often means the lore must take 2nd stage. For me personally the game is in a very healthy place right now. Today it’s more about the skill of the player than the match up of the armies. Don’t get me wrong there will always be mismatches...but on the whole a good player with a good list can go up against anyone. I much prefer that and I also appreciate that GW have tried to reform the game to allow for easier games between new hobbyists because that means 40k will still be here for years to come and a day might come when they say hey, let’s spice things up a bit.

Obviously they want to sell miniatures, but I disagree that its the rules that sell them. No one starts warhammer going "Oh yeah, I wanna win the grand slam tournament!". They join, by and large, when they are 12 and they see that "Oooh, look, those are robot skeletons and they are fighting space elves!". The models sell themselves.

The rules provide the longer term hook to keep people coming back, but, and I say this once again, the VAST majority of warhammer collectors NEVER GET TO PLAY, with the next biggest batch being those that just play with their friends. An extremely tiny proportion join even their local gaming store, and the big tournaments cater to the same few hundred people GLOBALLY.

No one was crying for balance in the sense of making everything more homogeneous. In the same way that no one wants Starcraft races to play the same, and people got really upset when Blizz tried to stop Protos death balls. And you cant tell me the LoL or Dota2 communities want all the characters to be the same. Selecting the right hero, build and tactics is half the fun of a game.

And Warhammer used to be like that. AoS, widely considered the better of the 2 main lines to play right now, is WILDLY asymmetrical.

No, when people ask for balance in 40k, its like balance patches in LoL. Its "This army is underperforming vs all other armies, or only functions well by drastically altering its role. Lets fix that."

Its "Poison was fine, but everyones saves have gone up and poison is now getting saved all the time. Can we have -1 ap please?"

Its "Our HQs seem melee focused, and we kinda like that, but they struggle to get into combat without us hobbling our force somewhere else. Can they either go in the transports with the troops, or be converted to a more tactical role?"

Its "We are supposed to be the fastest, can you please stop making faster models for other factions that are supposed to be slow?"

I bought DE because I liked the models. I stuck with it because I liked the play style, through several editions. Now I am being forced into a playstyle for another army that I specifically didnt choose.

I had a very sobering thought. At the end of the day, this is what our codex will contain:

3 HQ choices, all of which may be faction dependent to access
3 named characters, 2 of which may be faction dependent to access them. we will see.
3 troop choices, each may be faction dependent to access them
3 non beast/court elite choices, 1 of which may be faction dependent to access them
3 non beast/court fast choices, 2 of which may be faction dependent to access them.
3 heavy choices, 2 of which may be faction dependent to access them
2 flyer choices which both may be faction dependent to access them.
2 transport choices

This, ladies and gentlemen, is our army. This is what we have to work with.

Do you all realize that if you want to play a pure Wych cult from our codex, you get ZERO heavy choices, 1 troop choice, and 1 HQ (if not strife)?
Coven is even worse! 1 hq, 1 troop, and only grots, scourges, incubi and mandrakes for elite and fast, 3 of which get no benefit from your army.
We can only hope that they change the rules enough to open all options for all factions, and that the synergy is there to make it work. they hinted at this, but a lot of what they hint at never comes to fruition, at least how we all envision it.
GW are salespeople.
They are not going to come out and say "No new units! No neat new rules! Buy our book anyway!"

Our codex needs a serious re-envisioning, not just a few "tweaks"

100% for me the same is true...I got into this hobby out of a love for the miniatures. I got some none GW skeletons and I bought some Dwarfs and I loved them! I didn’t start to undercoat my miniatures for another 2 years lol those were the days! I’m also quite guilty of buying a unit at least of every single army n 40k aside from Tau. I just used to see the new models and buy them! I did it all the time. At one point I had more Necromunda gangers than I had guardsmen for my IG army...so I used them as guardsmen! Looked like an army out of Mad Max!

So yeah totally I get why people buy the models etc. I meant that the rules are what keeps us in the hobby long term and that’s why I believe we tend to talk more about rules than we do about just how amazing the models are...as you righty say they sell themselves.

I’m still of the opinion that the 8th Ed reboot has made the game better.