10th ed data sheets

With today being the day we finally get to see our army rules I figured it was time to set up a spot to discuss ideas, strategies and synergies with our new rules, and see if we can find ways to bring on our realspace cousins and our beloved fools and followers of the laughing God (not sure how Harliquins and Corsairs are going to work but I bet it'll be like deamons where they can just kinda soup without breaking army rules but also not benefitting from them)

There is a lot to unpack here.

So, first of all, yeah, you are allowed to take up to 500 pts (in a strike force game) of harlequins/corsairs combined. Unfortunately, Corsairs can't use our transports anymore because they no longer count as Drukhari.

Ynarri rules are a mess, requiring you to take Yvraine as a warlord in order to include Drukhari. It's very strange considering that you can put any or all of the Ynarri units in a standard Aeldari army (and you can do the same with harlies, as all of them are 'Aeldari' faction). We also lost the webway gate, though the GW website included the 'Drukhari' keyword in the catalog entry for it.

Kabalite warriors are specifically in groups of 10 and now limited to what's in the box. So, 1 shredder, 1 blaster. Though it does mean that you can take both the dark lance and splinter cannon in a unit.

Archons can't lead incubi, which is really stupid.

My offhand impression is that wyches are going to suck without a succubus leading them, grotesques look pretty lackluster, and talos seem to have taken a definite hit in overall usefulness.  I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on any of this.

Reavers look pretty good. Heat Lances, unexpectedly, are quite good.

beastmasters + beasts are all packed into one datasheet. They're.. interesting. Unfortunately, limited to a specific loadout (1 BM, 1 fiend, 2 kymerae, 3 razorwing flocks).

wracks still look good.

It all looks pretty unimaginative to me. Possibly even moreso than the 8th edition index. Overall, I think the craftworlders got off better than we did, though I'm also seeing how several of their units got screwed too.

Archon lost all weapons, and for some stupid frak reason the shadow field still only lasts until failure instead of being just a straight 4+ invuln ...

I'm fine with the kabalite warriors being how they are basically take one of each special and split them into two venoms, darklight and extra anti infantry
The talos seem great ... point them at a unit, delete it, and they are permanently buffed from power from Pain, add wrackarth to just follow them around and they will be pretty hard to get rid of
The cronos actually have a purpose now!
Wracks give 2 pain tokens each time they kill a unit and 1 when they die (ill take it)
Raiders meh
Ravagers ... the ability is weird as hell ... you want to shoot at a full strength unit but after that ... the gunners get bored I guess? And just don't really feel like trying to kill what they are shooting at?
Razorwing jetfights <---- better tank killers than ravagers as all of their weapons hit on a 2+ so long as the target doesn't have fly ...
Voidraven bomer <--- even better than jetfighter 12 24" blaster shots or 4 str 14 ap4 lance shots and void raven missiles are ok
Jetbikes are ridiculous, Heat lance/caltrops all day long
Court of the archon and beast masters kinda seem like a mess but eh

Gonna keep thinking about this and try a few games before having final thoughts

So, our enhancements seem to be character locked. 4 total, 3 of which are specific to Archon/Succubus/Haemonculus. Not that it matters, the generic 4th one stands out as easily the best in my opinion. Same with Strategems, most have restrictions on some part of our army or another.

Archon_91 wrote:

The talos seem great ... point them at a unit, delete it, and they are permanently buffed from power from Pain, add wrackarth to just follow them around and they will be pretty hard to get rid of

They don't look *that* killy to me. Definitely not when units max at 2, and especially not vs. MEQs. I'm not sure that they can do a good job at taking out other armies' monsters either.

It looks like we have a lot of ways of landing hits, due to having a ton of reroll options, but our ability to land wounds from those hits seems to be lacking.

The removal of close weapon options from all of our battleline units is *really* lazy.

If they are cheap, I think that beastmasters are actually not bad. They're fast, get a scout move, have a lot of wounds, and actually dish out a lot of attacks (8 of which have lethal hits, 5 of which have devestating wounds). It's just unfortunate that you have to stick with only one loadout, and they'll have have a sizeable footprint. Though, the funny thing is that drukhari splinter rifles will still wound them on 6s.

It's annoying that court of the archon is back to being 1 of each model only. However, they don't make for a bad retinue (assuming the price is right). The lhamaean and sslyth are actually pretty good in close combat. and the meduse has 1d6 torrent S6 AP-1 D1.

I'd be inclined to throw the court in with an archon and stick them in venom, or combat squad a warrior unit, throw 5 in a venom (with dark lance and blaster), and attach the other 5 to the archon + court and put them in a raider.

I am legitimately impressed how they somehow made our HQs even worse.

We now have:
Archon - Melee beatstick with anti-infantry 3+. Oh and he can't give his bonus to attached units on a transport due to how they work now.
Haemonculus - Melee beatstick with anti-infantry 2+. "Wargear options: none"
Succubus - Melee beatstick with anti-infantry 3+.

Raiders do not have any sort of assault ramp ability. I guess our lightweight raiding craft simply cannot match the tactical maneuverability of...that one Imperial Guard box with really stupid treads.

Someone tell me what the frak Wyches do now? Cos they damn sure don't kill anything!

I like the special rules that the wracks, grotesques, pain engines and haemonculi have. I can't say if they're good or not, but they sure are interesting. Pain engines having their unit sizes decreased to 1-2 is weird, but doesn't seem like a huge deal. It was probably done to balance their special rules. No wargear options is very lame though and Power from Pain really needs to be reworked once we get our codex. All things said and done, this might be the time for me to expand my collection beyond just the covens. God willing we'll get new models this edition.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Someone tell me what the frak Wyches do now? Cos they damn sure don't kill anything!

You have to attach them to Lelith. She gives them Fight First, +1S, and an extra point of AP.

Here is my idea for a list, don't know points and don't care,
Urien with 2 10 man squads of wracks sitting on home objectives (getting healed by urien)
3 razorwing jetfighters for anti-ground stuff
3 voidraven bombers for anti-everything else

Okay, I've struggled on with a lot of unfun, unfluffy rules for Dark Eldar but I've officially reached my limit. I'd sooner play with a stranger's bowel-movements than with this piece of tripe (for all the difference there is between the two).

Kudos, GW, you've finally made me quit DE.

Archon_91 wrote:

Archon lost all weapons, and for some stupid frak reason the shadow field still only lasts until failure instead of being just a straight 4+ invuln ...

At least he lost a wound to make up for it.

Also, got to love how the Cannoness is still "Archon but better". She gets to have a permanent 4++ and also gets a 1/game 2++ on top of that. Meanwhile, when the Archon loses his save, he becomes less agile than a Kabalite.

TheBaconPope wrote:

I am legitimately impressed how they somehow made our HQs even worse.

We now have:
Archon - Melee beatstick with anti-infantry 3+. Oh and he can't give his bonus to attached units on a transport due to how they work now.
Haemonculus - Melee beatstick with anti-infantry 2+. "Wargear options: none"
Succubus - Melee beatstick with anti-infantry 3+.

This was my complaint in 8th/9th. Clearly GW thought there were still too many differences between the three.

Also, I love that SMs are allowed different profiles for the exact same weapon, but our HQs have to use the exact same pistol as the regular grunts.

Eieieiei

that looks like crap

Especially compared to Craftworlds and ESPECIALLY compared to marines

I've had the chance to go through the index fully. I'll probably play a few introductory games of 10th, but I'd rather spend my time/money on hobbies that will bring me much more enjoyment if this is what I can expect out of GW.

Anyway, here's my full thoughts, good, bad, and other.

The Good/Good enough:
1. Pleasantly surprised that some unit rules have additional, more powerful, effects when that unit has been empowered. Adds a bit of depth to our faction rule.
2. The Strategems that exist for DE are fine. I can see myself using all of them except maybe Alliance of Agony. My gut says Strike and Fade isn't going to be worth 2CP most of the time.
3. I'm surprised that beasts made the cut to the full codex - I was fully expecting them to be shunted to legends.
4. Cronos seems fine, assuming it's a relatively cheap/tough buff vector. Pain Parasite is worded in that classic GW legalize though.
5. Drazhar is once again singlehandedly carrying our HQ section on his back. Wonder if he gets tired.
6. Kabalites not needing to disembark in order to get a sticky objective is nice.
7. Mandrakes are basic, but feel like a good enough harassment unit.
8. I'm very happy to see Deep Strike back by default on our vehicles.
9. The Ravager being tooled as an alpha strike vehicle is interesting. T9 is also more than I was expecting. Take that, meltas!
10. Razorwing Jetfighter is looking good as a staple of our army, as usual.
11. Reavers are a real winner of this index, assuming appropriate pricing. The heat lance being an effective AT weapon, and being assault on top of it all, is a really nice surprise. OC 2 is just icing on top. I was hoping the other two dudes would get a Reaver Splinter Rifle or something that's a better version since that sorta thing is popular in 10th, but eh, I'll take the win.
12. Likewise, I'm quite liking the look of Scourges. Move-shoot-move is exactly what I want out of them, and they seem viable with everything but shardcarbines and blasters. Their wargear selection not being gimped is also a plus (sadly).
13. Talos seems fine. I like its ability.
14. Wracks seem fun. Pain Token generation on death is a fun ability…they hit like a wet paper towel though so good luck killing stuff with them.

The Bad:
1. Pain token economy is going to be a real pain. We'll likely be starting with maybe 4-5 (3 from Strike Force + 1-2 from HQs). And then earning some number per turn, highly dependent on the opposing army. The Art of Pain enhancement is going to be a must-take in my opinion.
2. I have no idea why the other enhancements are locked into a single HQ each. Crucible of Malediction seems like a good way to get some tokens, but is very situational. I feel like a Succubus would make better use of it.
3. Labyrinthine Cunning seems good on the surface…but I really can't see myself using stratagem's on Kabalites.
4. On that point, Alliance of Agony is cool…but not cool enough for me to get over how piss poor our HQs are for me to realistically use it.
5. Blood Dancer, even empowered, isn't really enough to save the Succubus' poor stat line for me.
6. The Archon is still completely useless. For the third (maybe even fourth) book in a row. His attachment bonus does nothing when he's embarked on a transport because the attacks are coming from the transport itself which he is not attached to. His Devious Mastermind ability only works when he's on the battlefield as well! So the best option is to footslog him? I guess? The Huskblade is fine but with his poor defense and lack of playstyle synergy with the units he's leading, I doubt he'll see combat at all. Not even bloody mentioning that the last vestiges of wargear choice have been stripped away. I seriously think this is the worst iteration of the Archon. Ever.
7. The Haemonculus losing all of his options is just especially painful. They'll probably be semi-decent character killers due to precision but "assassin" is not what comes to mind when I think of the Haemy. Of all the HQs, I think the weirdos down in the depths of the Dark City should have the most/oddest equipment.
8. The Phantasm Grenade Launcher is a bloody travesty. Can it at least force a battle shock test? Considering that's what it's designed to do and all.
9. Is there a reason why so many infantry units are going to a base unit size of 10? I know it's not a problem exclusive to us, but I think it's especially icky due to the weird interactions with the Venom. Kabalites getting their wargear restricted is a pain. Guess it means an extra heavy weapon overall…but that extra weapon is a Splinter Cannon lol.
10. Lelith, famous dualist, finds it harder to kill characters than a Haemonculus.
11. I'm going to say it - there is waayyyyyy too much anti-infantry USR in this index. I guess we're supposed to be a counter-skew to infantry heavy lists, but I feel like games with/against DE are going to be super rock-paper-scissors. I can already hear the marine whining…
12. No keywords on Raider/Ravager ranged weapons. I was hoping that they'd get Assault, meh.
13. "Succubus weapons" - just c'mon. It's also cool to see that, again, the Succubus is a beatstick with anti-infantry. Because why would our characters need to do anything else?
14. Why do we need to spend a pain token to give the Succubus/entourage Fights First? She's T3 and apparently bounces around the enemy like she's got flubber on her shoes, at least give her that.
15. The ability to heal Coven units being limited to Urien Rakarth is…meh. Casket of Flensing is not anywhere near good enough to be a once per game thing lol - but that's been the case for as long as I can remember lol.
16. On that point, is it too much to ask for Coven leaders being able to heal units other than their fleshy monstrosities? This army still feels like it's split in three.
17. Is it too much to ask that our vehicles be better in melee? I respect that a goal of the new sheets was to make tanks somewhat threatening in close combat, but the Raider's melee stats are identical to near everything else. Chalk that one up on the "Things that used to be exclusive to DE that were given to everyone without a replacement" list.
18. Wyches seem to be built around the idea that you're going to have a character attached and that they're going to be empowered. Which is way too much of an expectation for a troops unit to be viable.
19. The Shock Prow is just decorative now, I guess.

The ???:
1. One would think that the Beastmaster would be an ideal candidate for the new character rules. Make each beast unit it's own thing, make the Beastmaster a character and give him the ability to attach to only those units. Instead we have…this. WHY?
2. The Court of the Archon is also deeply confusing to me. So, they're a four model unit that can optionally attach to Kabalites but only if an Archon is leading the unit. But how is that unit supposed to work? That gives you a 15 model unit (10 Kabs, 1 Archon, 4 Court), which can't fit into a Raider. So you either have to footslog the entire blob, or take a Venom to split the Kabalite unit in two and shove half of them + Court + Archon into a Raider. Just so many poor/confusing decisions involved in that mess of a rules interaction.
3. Is there any reason to use the single blade mode on Demiklaives? I haven't done the math, but dual blades seem obviously better.
4. Why do Raiders not have an assault ramp ability? They have ramps on the model intended for assaulting! They've already flanderized our faction down to being the pointy dudes who do drive bys with knives, could they at least make us good at it?? Once again, WHY?
5. Why is the range of the Void mine random? For a once per game ability I need to…survive long enough for a sufficient quantity of enemy units to cluster, fly over those units, then roll for range, then roll for mortal wounds. D6 mortal wounds isn't even impressive either lol.

I was a bit disappointed to see how badly incubi got the bat, especially since allot of stuff got tougher. The proof I guess is in the points costs I suppose.

I do also feel there was more devestating wounds in these indexes but they where emergency trimmed after the Death watch incident.

Not really impressed so far to be honest.

Something just occurred to me ... the incomplete feeling on the raider and ravager rules data cards could be because they messed up and gave us the combat patrol data cards and not the complete index datacards ...

Here is Skari's review of the index:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJptTp7mzJ0&t=686s

Naturally, he's a bit more optimistic in outlook. Granted, Skari has shown that he can make just about *everything* work.

I think I may be done with this, at least until some time next year or the year after when we get a codex. If I wanted to play a shooty army I wouldn't have sold my Tau.

krayd wrote:

Here is Skari's review of the index:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJptTp7mzJ0&t=686s

Naturally, he's a bit more optimistic in outlook. Granted, Skari has shown that he can make just about *everything* work.

From a competitive side we are fine, hell possibly even above average

From a casual fluffy side ... imo we are continuing to creep (or be savagely thrown) further and further down the bland and boring hole

Seeing the points documents ... biggest winners
Ravagers - 95
Cronos - 50
Raiders - 90
Reavers - 75

Archon remains unable to justify its points cost but over all I am feeling more positive about the army

Archon_91 wrote:

Seeing the points documents ... biggest winners
Ravagers - 95
Cronos - 50
Raiders - 90
Reavers - 75

Archon remains unable to justify its points cost but over all I am feeling more positive about the army

Eh. Good point costs will make DE playable, maybe even competitively viable, but the core is still rotten imo. Why should I want to play Drukhari? What do they do that nobody else can? My answers to those questions are "Sunk cost" and "nothing important."

Having slept on it, I do want to try a couple of builds though. A reaver/scourge/mandrake centric harassment list could be fun. A big blob of Talos with supporting Cronos in the center is another idea. Probably a third one.

Haemonculus is looking like our best HQ choice at the moment...mainly because him + supporting unit is the cheapest, and having Precision on his attacks allows him to do something the rest of the army genuinely can't.

Am I correct in thinking that wargear, minus enhancements, is now free?

Yup. Wargear is all free. It's basically Power Level, but with a wider numerical range. I'm wondering if it's always going to be like this in 10th edition, or if the codices will allow for more granular builds (in terms of both wargear and unit sizes).

I'm going to go for the full alliance of agony, at least at first.

Lelith plus a unit of wyches, as it looks like the only viable way to take wyches.

Archon+Court+half of a kabalite squad (w/ sybarite, splinter cannon, shredder for focused anti-infantry) on a raider (the DL+blaster half goes in a venom).

Haemy+wracks (or Urien+wracks)

Wyches - 110 points for 10, so 11 ppm.

Nope. Just nope!

By the way, I utterly despise the lack of options over squad size and gear. Our entire range is built to be interchangeable but we have to build the contents of each box precisely as presented with no variations. Bullshit!

Count Adhemar wrote:

By the way, I utterly despise the lack of options over squad size and gear. Our entire range is built to be interchangeable but we have to build the contents of each box precisely as presented with no variations. Bullshit!

With you on that.

Very disappointing.

I really hope it's just the Index versions that will be so restrictive.

There are so many "once per game" abilities in this book that would be standard everywhere else

And why are the canoness and the Autarch cheaper and better than the Archon?

I'm genuinely surprised they managed to make 10th edition somehow much simpler and much less interesting than 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th or even 9th. Removing wargear and dumbing down PPM in to fixed squad-sizes - something taken directly from Age of Sigmar by the way - just makes it even worse. Acothysts lost all their melee weapon options too. This might be a "focus on your WHFB army" edition, especially since we most likely won't be getting any model releases for a long time.
Maybe the codex will fix it, but I doubt it. They simplified everything they weren't supposed to simplify.