The Juice of Life... or Death Army Dynamic Paradox

Ok so I have been pondering some of the basic aspects of the book. Now that it has been out for more than a year and it seems like the interwebz has got its grips on what is considered to be "the best". The wonderful thing about the DE book is that there is no set best of the best build... the closest to this being the venom spam. Now, we all know that venoms kill things and they do it well. This is the topic that I wish to put forward to all of you fellow Kabalites. We are not squeezing the juice from the codex, I feel that having the tanks kill the infantry and the infantry kill the tanks (other than ravagers) poses a sort of paradox for the army. All those juicy pain tokens are just getting wasted and I believe that the true power of the DE codex will be realized when full advantage is taken of every aspect of the book and the various rules within it.
So, with this in mind, tactically how do you deal with pain tokens, do you even care? Do you only want the FNP? Looking for others input as to what you would do to your army to try and keep the same infantry killing potential but at the same time not waste infantry at killing tanks.

Cheers

I use a sneaky way. Take a 10man squad of Warriors in a raider. The Raider as a designated transport can shoot at separate things to the warriors. So I use the Raider as a layer of armour for the Warriors who will shoot at infantry and hopefully gain a token.

Another good way of doing this, especially with Venoms is to fire the venom first, then take out the stragglers with the passengers-still counts as a pain token.

Pain tokens really give DE units an edge- really makes up for the fail-armour and making use of them, I feel is essential. This is why I run large units of Wyches, they will kill the unit they assaulted into but instantly gain that pain token, and if all else has gone average the nearest unit that can shoot them should be assaulted by a 5-man squad of bloodbrides while other threats should be shot up enough from warrior squads.

I also don't usually have my infantry killing tanks- aside from reavers, like to keep the DL on the Raiders and Splinter cannons on the Warriors. Also a good tactic is to get rid of some of the smaller more powerful units from an enemy- lots of pain tokens quickly. A good example of this is tyranids. Splinter weapons munch through the monstrous creatures and elites generating enough pain tokens to make you very survivable.

For the most part I'm in the 'don't care' category.

Usually I give my Wyches FNP to start anyway. Minimized warrior squads w. Blasters don't need pain tokens. Assault units will get them soon enough presuming I'm playing the army correctly.

I'm more focused on killing things and getting them off the board then worrying about whether or not I'll get a pain token for doing it.

I look at pain tokens as a bonus, although usually every game at least one 5 man blaster squad and maybe a trueborn squad will get one.
Like Thor said my Wyches always start with one anyways.

when you run venomspam, 5 man squads dont need pain tokens. If the venom goes down, they are dead anyway. Now assault elements and bigger warrior squads love pain tokens, but normally people just start them with a haemie, or go pick on an easy squad for alittle time. Pain tokens are good, dont get me wrong, but they arent as game changing as GW wants you to believe.

I see Venom spam as paradox army, however due to... range.

Blaster have half range of SC, but You want "dismount" enemies first.

MINDHUMP.

I prefere different approach - SCs INSIDE vehicles, namely Raiders.

mukslinger from his topic with my notes in purple wrote:

(option 1) 3 Trueborn : 2 blasters, venom+sc : 131

(option 2) 3 Trueborn : 2 sc's, raider : 116

(option 3) 3 Trueborn : 2 dl's, venom+sc : 151

.

options 1 and 2 are very similar, both are mobile.

option 1 - two (24inch, moving) or (18inch, stationary) anti-tank, and twelve 36 / 42inch anti-troop.

option 2 - one 36 / 42inch anti-tank, and (eight, moving) or (12 stationary) 36 / 42inch anti-troop.

option 3 - (none, moving) or (two - stationary) anti-tank, and twelve 36 / 42inch anti-troop

1) often trade enemy tank for enemy tank - it may be good, but IMHO it's not.
3) is just dumb when You compare it with Ravager
2) is exactly what I'm talking about.

Note they serve similar purpose and have similar weapons (cheapest option have 1 DL), but some options are just better point/movement/range wise.

Also, SC inside give You ability to gain pain tokens for passangers.
Which give You ability to actually use passangers when their transport explode.

Though your above build doesn't need pain tokens and also has some serious firepower issues when it comes to popping transports. It might have some validity in a list built for it where maybe the extra points are fed into Scourges or bikes or something to pick up the slack of the lost anti-mech shooting, but I'm not sure it would equal out very well.

Good thing about it is mobility. 5th ed is all about it. And mech. And mobile mech that can shoot with good range. And this build provide that.

And I really doubt FNP is that useless. 5+ FNP allow You to save over 50% of squad, so if You fail LD, You may at least dig in and pew-pew moron-keigh.

Again this is matter of preferences. There is no "nobrainer" build for unit with that many options unlike SM devastators (MISSILES!).

I think overall the whole token thing is semi-important at first and may have some design influences on lists and deployment but overall I think it kinda stops right there. You may put some Haemys in the list to put with wyches or incubi but beyond that planning on getting more tokens or strategizing for more or whatever is non-existent.

I remember early on when the codex came out the token system thing seemed way more important (maybe because it was so new). I remember making themed coven lists that focused on starting and farming more tokens like including Urien, 3 haemys, grots and wracks (a true coven) and with the Father of Pain rule and a Cronos in the list I had maxed out on a number of squads the amount of tokens they could actually use. I even remember putting 2 squads of wyches in this list and then rolling the pain token drug and them coupled with a Haemy they all had at least 2 tokens with the rest of the army being fearless (drunk with tokens). Did it really affect the game at all? I can’t say it had an effect worth remembering that is for sure (other than having a couple squads with 4 or 5 tokens and running out of counters).

Lately, however, I know I have a more elaborate token system where I manage the token system more closely. Something simple like using wracks and haemys to start the game and then using other IC’s to steal and distribute tokens to available nearby units without disturbing the flow of the battle or hampering my own efforts. Case in point I used the Baron to give stealth to a wwp deploying haemy/wrack squad on the opening turn. Hellions and scourges emerge from the portal and thus the Baron joins the hellions to give them a token while the Haemy takes a token and gives it to the scourges (simply because at that point the wracks are no longer a priority target and them sitting in 4+ cover and being T4 isn’t so terrible either). Later that game the Hellions got another token and I had Furious Charging Hellions at S6 and the Baron at S7. In the same list I do use a Cronos but its priority is getting tokens to the 2 Talos and or any other infantry units that might have the need.

I think perhaps the other “hiccup” you get with tokens is that our army is so fast that they will get into combat faster than they can actually get to use the token. Like needing fearless wracks to deploy a portal or getting furious charge to hellions or incubi, by the time they acquire those tokens the game is already half over and if everyone elses DE game goes like mine the game is pretty much over by the 3rd turn or should I say your forces are already committed by then and any tokens that matter are the ones they took with them into battle, not the ones they will be awarded afterwards.

No, it is not an exact science than it is an art. I do pay attention to managing the tokens but I do not think there is room for that in the overall meta – the meta being the more “point and click”, easy to win as possible with no reference to doing it with “style”. Thinking about it, if the tokens had affected the splinter weaponry or some of the guns somehow, I think it would have been more of an interest in the whole token system.

@LO - The mobility is nice, but how many lances does your final list end up with, and how does that work vs. Chimera/Razorspam lists?

It's hard to tell how that works since I have limited ammount of armies I can play with (proxy with Orks in my house), but here is quick summary:

Elite give me 3 mobile DL
Troops give me 6 mobile DL and 6 mobile Blasters (10 warriors with blaster and SC)
Fast give me about 3x2 weapons
Heavy give me 3x3 mobile lances on Ravagers.
Maybe 2 Blasters from Archons but that's silly.

Overall I have pretty much as many AT shots as we can get in 2k list.

But You know what Thor, now You gave me good food for thought. What's about that unit:
5 Trueborn, 2 SC, 3 Blasters - 125 points
Raider - 60 points. Actually this may benefit from Venom too.

Kinda like putting Venom and Ravager on top of Your Raider (I'll spare You Xzibit joke lol).

I would tend to peg that as too risky to use due to the expense of the unit, its relative killyness, and how easy it would be to kill in turn.

Well, 10 Kabalites with Blaster and SC cost 115 points without Raider. Not too good either.

They're still cheaper than the Trueborn and better at their core purpose of infantry killing while the Trueborn are a little muddled for optimal target and are also a fair bit easier to kill.

Ok, how about this unit:
6 Trueborn, Blaster, 2x SC, 3x SCarabine 122 (I could skip 1 Carabine to make points comparable)

17 shots on move, 21 stationary. Better range. Can assault IF they would like to do so (they have 2 base attacks)

That's a perfectly fine unit, the only debate is if you want to fill that purpose from within an Elite slot of not.

That depends on list.

Probably AT oriented units with "additional" AI would be best in most cases due to duality and mech.


Or so I want to believe my friend.

Still, I think that Raider + 2 SC + "maybe something" is most flexible Trueborn build since it give mobility and long range shooting in all tastes.

If duality were all it was cracked up to be fire dragons and melta vets wouldn't be good. Duality is okay, but it's hardly a end goal in itself.

Indeed. Units that are good in one thing but don't cost Your leg and arm (like Venoms or Ravagers, they are worth their price on their own) are still usefull.

I don't believe that Kabalites of all sort should be mono-purpose tho. Not with label full of options.

They aren't "obviously" dual purpose unit (like "forced" Razorwings or Scourges, who pick SCs or Shredders on them?) but they do it pretty well. We can make them heavy duty AI/AT but that give enemy easy choice in shooting phase.

And I would allow my enemy to make mistakes, exactly A LOT of them. That's one of purpose of duality (other is... well, duality).

Wow, this thread took off.

I am of the thought that the best use of the army comes from raiders with larger warrior units to provide bodies, poison firepower and pain token retreival at range. Venoms can soften things up, and then other units can wipe them all out.

Also, who knows what 6th will bring.

And FAQ. Never underestimate power of Nerf Bat. Nid's did that

Ok, back to Pain Tokens. They are cool addition but without reliable way to get massed FNP and FC (...king Sang Priests, I love them. I mean filelding them.) they are just glitter.

Wyches and Incubi are the best candidates for pain tokens. With 4++ in CC, or 3+ armor, getting them a token somehow makes them go from average to "annoying to kill". Furious Charge can be great if you munch a unit and line up your second assault without much harassment, but if you're getting them all the way up to the full three tokens, you've probably got the game well in hand anyway. That first token is valuable enough to warrant sticking a haemonculus in every important CC squad, I feel it's a superior option to Succubus/Archon escorts 99% of the time.

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

by the time they acquire those tokens the game is already half over and if everyone elses DE game goes like mine the game is pretty much over by the 3rd turn or should I say your forces are already committed by then and any tokens that matter are the ones they took with them into battle, not the ones they will be awarded afterwards.

This pretty much says all that can be said about Pain tokens IMO, anything you want to have FNP should have it at the start of the game, beyond that it has very little real effect on most games.

^^^
Triple agree'd.

Arrex wrote:

That first token is valuable enough to warrant sticking a haemonculus in every important CC squad, I feel it's a superior option to Succubus/Archon escorts 99% of the time.

As a PGL junkie I can't entirely agree with this statement concerning Incubi. But I'm nitpicking here (taking both the FnP and the grenades really is the way to go).