The Juice of Life... or Death Army Dynamic Paradox

Sorrowshard wrote:

This pretty much says all that can be said about Pain tokens IMO, anything you want to have FNP should have it at the start of the game, beyond that it has very little real effect on most games.

I disagree with this. If you have the opportunity to gain feel no pain, furious charge and fearless why disregard it? Fair enough don't strive to just gain them but still try to get them when you can. Other players would love FnP so why not make use of it, ideally you want everything to have FnP, it gives a whole new dynamic to the army i.e. Warriors might survive a light breeze and you can't do that from the beginning of the game. If you use your army right and the odds work for you, it's not to hard to generate a few.

You misread me, I did not say not to pick them up where possible. I stand by what I said 100 percent.

If you can get both cover and fnp DE can be pretty hard to remove.

Pain Tokens are a nice addition when you gain them from dead enemy IC on your higher initiative step, then get some more durability for return blows.
But i cant say im planning like im gonna charge and wipe that unit out , and then im gonna charge that unit.Usually its all or nothing.

Pain Tokens would get some sense on large shooting squads,when we finish units with them. But in current state of affairs our anti-infantry mainly is venoms who dont have Power from Pain or CC units , which probably best have PT from the start.

Alas, units for whom pain tokens do matters somewhat is large packs of Helions, Scourges , 10men warriors squads. If you dont use those you probably shouldnt really care.

Err,.Wyches are easily the most important unit to pain point.

It completely transforms them completely.

Wyches should start with it, not gain it. Thats for sure. I dont want them ride Raider without FNP.

::old cranky man voice::

Back in my day you used to have to play Wyches without FNP or Raiders that could get a 5++ save, and they worked fine then...and you had to pay extra for grenades!

Im sure Wych weapons were better then ? Oh and you could get more darklight in an edition with a frendlier vehicle table and less vehicle cover....

Edition is super shooty now FNP on Wyches is mandatory !

i find that you have to play DE like you would a warhammer fantasy army. Assuming you dont have FnP on wyches-( i do agree that these are the best to have it followed by warriors) you have to really plan your movement, fleet and assault so you can't get shot up because if you make a mistake you lose that squad. This can be hard to do to get the movement and fleet move to still keep them in cover/out of LoS if you can't quite make the assault. FnP helps mediate this, it allows you to make a mistake/play more bodly. So ideally you may think it is essential to give them FnP to start and yes that would be good but you can still get by without by just thinking about positioning, never running wyches through the open for example that can help get around this without the pain tokens.

Actially mine have it to make them not die in cc, after all T3 with a 4 plus save is nothing special, wyches do jack all damage, if your opponent can force more than a couple of saved they drop like flies, and you need the numbers up to be doing any damage, thats why its important for them to have it, without they dont really make for a very good cc unit.

As you say it also helps when your fleet rolks screw you or your vehicle blows up.

They just need it...

^Well I'm pretty sure you couldn't be more wrong about wyches to be honest. They are probably one of the best cc troop choice available. I don't think I've ever been in a scenario where they have been hit back hard enough to be worried. 40+ attacks on the charge? (A 10 man squad is essential I think) I have never seen anything but a 20 man terminator squad survive that and even then 10 of them died. Even a 5 man squad of bloodbrides can generate 25 attacks and wreck an army. You do have to be careful how you use them though, I think if your finding that they get killed in cc your using them all wrong. You don't charge high toughness enemies with them use splinter fire for that, they excell against standard troops and cc units with power weapons.

But back to the OP, they do need FnP but if used correctly its not hard to generate it yourself from assault. But obviously if you can give it to them at the start then do it but bear in mind there are other options.

There are probably lack of marines in your parts.Particulary Grey Hunters.
And what the hell is 20 man terminator squad?I doube even BT have squads like that.

There is also reason for FNP on wyches, if you use their haywire and explode the vehicle nearly all of them are going to die.

When it comes to pain tokens, I always plan where I need my pain tokens to start the game. Any pain tokens I acquire after that are gravy. If I need a unit of wyches to have furious assault, I can plan that out to ensure they get what they need before they get to the area where they need it. I've said it before but it bears repeating... I love wyches.

Eh ? A wych squad of ten only generates 30 attacks, lets assume an agoniser hek, at best you kill 2-3 meq on the charge (str 3 ftw) lets assume you charged ten meq's which is fair given the cost of ten wyches plus transport, so you still get hit back lots, str 3 relies too much on luck, they are a tarpit, hardly what I would call a good cc unit, they do not hit remotely hard enough for that.

I was told its 1 base, then 2 for weapons (pistol and knife) then 1 for charging, thats what I was told by GW staff, and thats how we've always played it with all armies
And also it can really depend on your combat drug roll, re-roll, additional attack or plus 1 strength really benefit them. they are a tarpit best used in multu-assaults but I have always found that my 3 Wych squads I run will easily each tear through 2 squads each before being brought down. Easily the most effective part of the army even without FnP.

Also at Azdrubael, the 20 man Terminator squad was actually a 10 man Paladin squad, was just expressing it in wounds

Quote :

No its 1 base then 2 for weapons (pistol and knife) then 1 for charging, thats what I was told by GW staff, an thats how weve always played it with all armies

You are a cheater, mister
You get bonus of atack for additional close combat weapon , you add it to your base atacks.
Wyches is 3 atacks on the charge, 2 atacks in the next phases. You dont need GW stuff for that, its all written in rulebook.

Thats what , your bloodbrides get 5 on the charge? In your magical dark eldarlandia thats a really good squad then ))

Haha I always thought it was a lot! Hmmm I will have to correct my local shop then. Doesn't really effect the people I've played though as they've used the same rules, you should see the tyranid player! Makes sense though to get 2 attacks from 2 weapons? Still think they are a great cc unit though! Maybe it will be like that in 6th????

I agree, I would not call them a good cc unit either. I call them a great cc unit. There is immense tactical value in tarpitting a unit as opposed to just outright destroying it. Opponents will often divert some of their force to freeing the stuck unit. The more help they send, the less presence they have in another section of the table.

Math-hammer is good to use as a guide on how to use a unit, but it isn't always the best tool to use when judging the overall performance of a unit. You obviously have to pick and choose your battles but as long as they are used appropriately, dark rewards await the canny Archon.

Sorrowshard wrote:

Im sure Wych weapons were better then ? Oh and you could get more darklight in an edition with a frendlier vehicle table and less vehicle cover....

Edition is super shooty now FNP on Wyches is mandatory !

Wych weapons...eh, originally they were much worse, then they were changed to squad upgrade that occasionally lowered the number of attacks you received and usually not much else though it could be very good if you got the +1 WS drug because then you were only hit on 5's by most troops.

What made Wyches 'better' then was you used to be able to take up to two Blasters for 5 points each. They were sort of the original Trueborn build - though Trueborn do it mostly better, but Wyches used to have a solid assault element to them.

I think the big hurt is that our HQs used to be some of the flat out scariest thing sin assault in the game and that's what used to make Wyches scary because they'd be escorting something that was going to do 6 Str 5 power weapon attacks at initiative infinity while re-rolling misses.

I miss that

Herohammer does not make for interesting games IMHO. Whenever GW takes a step away from the days of herohammer, I get happier.

If that is what you're looking for though, Vect is about as close to that as you can get. He runs around with 7 re-rollable power weapon attacks when he assaults that wound on a 3+. His WS ensures that he will most likely hit with the majority of his attacks and at his I will probably be attacking first.

The old Archon did it for half the cost.

I don't particularly embrace herohammer - but I do like the idea of h2h HQs that are any good at all. Every single one of ours is basically just 'decent' at h2h combat or cost over 200 points. It makes me sad for the days when I could flat out state that no enemy army wanted to get into h2h combat with DE. I'd be happy to take Incubi with grenades or Wyches with more attacks or something if you don't want it to be the HQs that are doing the stomping. But I'd like to feel like more of a h2h threat on the board.

Yeah, no wonder he thinks Wyches are better than they are, sheesh

Yeah, ran a cc maxed Archon quite a bit, he's poor for the cost, like everything else in the book, subtly underpowered

Sorrowshard wrote:

Yeah, no wonder he thinks Wyches are better than they are, sheesh

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I have used my wyches to very effectively deal with tyranids, blood angels, orks and space wolves. I wouldn't say I only think wyches are good, they have proven their role to me time and time again.

Do I think I'm going to throw troop choice cc units into combat and have them destroy everything they come into contact with? No... but at 10 points a model they shouldn't be waltzing around the table leaving a path of destruction in their wake.

Hi, sorry I have not chimed in here. Busy weekend.

I personally think that the pain tokens are key to the army. FNP being the biggest (and easiest to get) seconded by fearless, being the hardest to get but at the same time usually towards the end of the game when you NEED your army to stay on objectives.

IMO a good tactical "reaping" of pain tokens for the right units at the right time will determine the quality and efficiency of a DE general.

I find fearless, overall, to be a hindrance and I don't like getting it.