Fixing De 5th Ed project

Local_Ork wrote:

I love You Sorrow.

Not in romantic/erotic way.

nice to have at least a couple of votes of confidence in here

Anyway I think Lance rule need serious overhaul vs. AV 10-12. It's most common armor range that happen to "negate" lance rule. Rule yet we pay premium for .

Indeed, it is something that needs looking at, to be fair , maybe sixth will fix em so I'll prob leave alone for now except for price /avalability, plus shoring up the deficiencies in the rest of the book will make lance fail less painful.

In fact, in world where Meltagun cost 10 points, I call 15 points for Blaster BS. Not only it have AP1, but also Melta as backup (not to mention some troops can pick 2 Meltaguns and Combi-melta - more than enough to fry ANY tank (even LR variant from Forgeworld, one with Thunderfire Cannon))

Yeah its a joke mate, 50% more for what exactly ? you can buy a firedragon a whole one for 16 points ?!

So lance need change. I propose AP1 for anything not AV 13+ (so heavy tanks get only AV reduction)

I'll get to this, prob when I am doing all the wargear/weapons

Next, Blasters in troop units. Limit of one Blaster per Warriors unit is another genius idea of Phil. I didn't liked 'ardboyz limit, nor this one. Also we aren't marines, so this "special + heavy" weapons loadout is... stupid .

If I can change it, then:
You can pick Shredder/Blaster instead of Lance.

That a fairly elegant solution IMO

Bam! 10 warriors in Raider is now really useful unit. Also 20 Warriors are nice alternative, 3 Blasters? Me gusta.

Wyches could get option of Blast Pistol instead of Wych Weapon.

Hmm, you would never see wych weapons (not that I bother with them anyway) I'll have a look when I get to it.

Wracks NEED... something to deal with tanks (maybe... option to take 1 Grot per 5 Wracks?). Or price reduction, since now they are just awful 'ardboyz/"golden ticket" for vehicle.

Disagree here, wracks in terms of the book and what you get are essentially spot on, just there are not really many reasons to take them , you take em for flavor In a Coven style list, thats what they are there for, I can't see myslef giving them and AT ability, you have other elements of the army / their transport for that.

Raiders are way too expensive. I guess GW didn't included discount for dead troops lol. 45-50 points is IMHO best with current Lance rule, maybe more with something better.

I agree here , many games I have my opponent just kills a vehicle every time he shoots at one, they are too expensive, a slight points drop coupled with a slight boost to lances will fix it, will probably aim for around 50 points.

25 points for Lances is pure ripoff. 15 points for Blast Pistol is pure ripoff.

I think thats one thing everyone in here can agree on

Personally, love almost everything you've suggested on the Archon, as I agree he needs to be more then CC beast. However, I agree with Saintspirit about the Arcanist in that it should be limited to 1 or 2 possible pieces of the wargear. Also, the Menagerie ability seems more suitied to the Succubus rather then an Archon for me personally, given the relation of the Beastmaster packs to the Wych Cult arenas.

Spot on about Menagerie. In fact, Succubus should be able to take either Skyboard (that allow her to count as Beast when joined with them or JP otherwise) or Jetbike (I guess ability to have Blast Pistol on top of that would be cool.). Right now there is NO reason to take her. Well, maybe as second Blast Pistol for Wych unit in fluff army.

I feel similar way with Arcanist - it could be done in Haemonculi "arcane wargear" style, with "normal" weapons without limit.

If I can propose something for Court...

Archon can pick either Incubi, Warriors (don't score) or Trueborn instead of his court. Those units can't have leader upgrade and count as retinue (ie. Archon is part of unit unless other members are killed).

If you have read path of the Renegade , there is at least on Archon who collects creatures so there is a precendent background wise.

its the whole evil villian keeping weird and dangerous creatures, " Sharks with lazors on their heads" and so on.

Succibi, are the leaders of wych cults the only relationship between the wyches and the beastmasters is in the arena, hence awych cult list can access them as fast attack still.

Archons can and would collect beasts and employ beastmasters, I can't really see it on a succubus, to be honest the succubus will be getting a total overhaul so bear with me.

Dunno about retinues, GW seems to be doing away with them , though making the court an actual retinue might make peole start to consider one.

Incubibbles will probable see tormentors get some rules and something to show they are bodyguards, well the arcanist can only use on cc wep and one shooting wep at a time, his BS is so high he gets a re roll already, just easier/fine to leave it as all his equipment rly. to be honest I'm going to fiddle with the Arcanist and see if I can make it better, I'm trying to get it so you have reasons to want to use any of them as they are all cool/useful

I saw a 6th edition rumor that would fix darklight. Lance weapons would not apply any modifiers to chart, and non-ap 1 are -1, instead of ap 1 being +1. So, lance would have same affect as ap1, and glances would have same effect as pens. If codex was written with this in mind it would explain high blaster costs.

You do have some vaild points Sorrow (loving the Austin Powers reference), though the arguement that Succubi would still access them as a Fast Attack could be applied easily to the Archon instead due to employing them only or collecting the beasts, while the Cults have much more direct relation to the Beastmasters.

However, I do not want to derail this based soley on my own perspective on Menagerie (Archon/Succubus with that + Webway Portal Haemys = Profit?), and with the detail and style you've given the Archon I can't wait to see your other ideas for the spikey kin.

Also, on the topic of Wracks with AT-abilities, if the idea of giving them direct AT-abilities is a no go, why not consider giving the Agoniser back the ability to glance any vechicle on a 6 again?

Eric, if i may ask, whats the point of new rules?

There is a new edition in less then 5 months, everything will change, and changes you now create may be unbalanced or unneeded.

Simple mental exercise?

Local_Ork wrote:

Right now there is NO reason to take her. Well, maybe as second Blast Pistol for Wych unit in fluff army.

I disagree there, the succubus can be highly effective, mine with hydra gauntlets happily minced her way through the best part of a unit of terminators and a terminator captain at the weekend (though granted, i did roll sixes for her additional attacks in a couple of the combat rounds) and for comfortably less than 100 points I'd call that a very good reason to take her.

Azdrubael , I dunno who Eric is but I'll try to answer anyway, Idoubt there will be sweeping changes to sixth that will greatly effect what I am doing here, the book wont age well and apart from trying to give a little zing I'm trying to give some character.

I can do the bulk of the work now and come back to bring it up to speed for 6th.

If our vehicles become less explosive and lances become better ( 9 lances for three turns, failed to kill a contemptor today, it was still alive at the end of the game.... *facedesk*) that will help an awful lot.

Burning eye, you are clearly qouting a one off freak situation, how on earth can you expect her to blow through 1+ armour saves with some str3 attacks ? and how did she survive the comeback from the powerfists/hammers ? did you get freak rolling on the saves too ? I can't see her ever pulling that off again, fail one four up and *poof * she's gone ? just because you had her work once does not mean she will do it again.

It's like saying mandrakes are awesome because they killed xyz in one game ?

to be honest as it is I just take a single heamo with maybe an lq gun for HQ, apart from perhaps the Baron none of the characters are really worth taking when the points will just go much further elsewhere. (there really is little logical reason to take any of them)

the succubus is cheap, but a 4++ is not worth as much as it would be on a t4 model and if she ends up in a fight with a fist/enemy character odds are shes a deddy , To be honest she should be a complete combat machine, but WS8 is a bit of a joke when the best chance you ever have to wound your opponent is a 4+

with an agoniser she averages 2 power weapon wounds on the charge, it drops off a bit after that , in fact Lelith's damage output is only very slightly better, the difference being that most enemy characters can be expected to have a 4++ or tbh 3++ is about as common these days, they will save one or pssobly both and often only need to do a single wound to kill her.

I guess you could buy her to kill 2 ish marines a turn ? I think I'll pass (have run one a number of times, very underwhelmed with both her and Lelith. then again it might be because I roll binary alot .....

To be quite honest I admit Succubus is kinda useful but I think You can either go with Haemonculus or Archon 99% times.

There is no gimmick that would make her that much different from duo mentioned above. Combine that with lack of options...

But if she could pick skyboard or jetbike, that would make her interesting (in fact really, really cool) alternative for them.

Just to add some input on the Archon, working within the already existing rules, why not allow him to murder a member of any squad he joins for a pain token. So in essence you could buy 10 man/women squads with all the special weapons, but upon joining he gains a token, and 'replaces' that member of the unit.
Would mean he could join 5 man squads in Venoms, and you would still obviously 'pay' for the token in a way.

The +1/-1 reserves would also go a long way to fixing WWPs. Although WWPs should be cheaper!

Also a Succy killing a squad of Terminators is pure luck. 2+ save means you need probably 30 attacks to cause an unsaved wound. Its like a squad of guardians wiping out a 5 man termy squad, I've seen it happen but that doesn't make guardians good. It means someones luck was good.

The always being able to take a blaster where a lance is a choice would also be a nice change to the codex as a whole, for warriors and trueborn.

The JB/Skyboard for the Succy is also a great idea, even better if she could make those units either troops or scoring :p

***Edit: Something I meant to add that I think is a huge issue currently. Overall army rule "Skimmer Skirmishers" All Dark Eldar units embarked upon a fast skimmer may shoot if the vehicle has moved up to 12", following the basic firing rules of their weapons. Heavy weapons cannot shoot, except SCannons if a rack is bought (provides a mounting point for heavy poisoned weapons AND extra ammunition)***

Ok I'm gonna sign off from this post as I'm not enjoying it at all.

@kristwithak. It should perhaps be noted that the whole game is luck, it's based on dice rolls, and though you can calculate what the results will be on average, actual dice rolling almost never follows that pattern. The succubus was accompanied by a squad of wyches to take the power fist hits and was base to base with the captain, wielding a power sword. I felt it was infinitely preferable to engage the termies with that squad than let them rampage round the board storm boltering everything to death, sure I got lucky but it evens out, my other wych squad failed to roll a single hit with their haywire grenades in combat with a walker for 4 rounds, statistically they should have got at least 3 by then!

@sorrowshard. I'm not saying that the succubus would do that every time, just that saying there's no reason to take her is being a bit harsh. I'm not a fan of mathammer, but I think it was Thor who ran all the HQ options through MEQ's and GEQ's and the Succubus actually came out as the best value CC HQ in the whole dex, though granted she doesn't add anything else but CC assistance.

Good luck with your project, I hope you get plenty of constructive feedback, and have many many happy games with it against those opponents who'll let you use it.

Ok mate , no worries

In terms of rules development mathammer is fairly important, some people don't like to trust to it in game and thats fine , to be honest I think my games would do my head in a whole lot less as I tend to go into an action expecting at least a certain result and being constantly disappointed.

When you posted before you gave the impression the succubus did it on her own, I concede that its far more possible for her to have done off the captain if there were no fists in b2b, if he has only a power sword (?) then that would buy her some time to get the wounds on.

Dude, sorry if any of that came across as personal , twas not intended as such, I just find the bad (IMO) characters a little frustrating and it seemed you were using a terrible example to illustrate her value.

I had six wyches charge an immob dread last night , only managed one 4 to hit then rolled a one for the greande, he hit wounded, I failed my inv then failed the ld check , poof wyches gone ..... this is the same game 20 odd lance shots failed to do anything but stun a dread over three turns, i also had the baron charge a dread @ str7 4 times and do nothing (prob about 14 hits altogether)

She is very cheap, which is what will help her to some extent, she is super fragile though too and not very killy really.

Don't feel pushed out , will still welcome your thoughts, as with anything of this nature there will be some contention.

I said "there is no reason to pick her" because if I don't think she is... necessary.
You need cheap HQ, go with Haemonculus since he also unlock Wracks and buff his unit.
Fighty HQ? Pay little more and go with Archon.
Not bad, just... answer to question nobody asked.

Succubus feel void between those two extremes, IMHO not being good enough in any of those things.

Cheap, but pricey considering how easy she die.
Killy, but Archon is better for slightly more points.

This is why I don't want better stats, nor discount. I want option that would make her unique, thus useful tactical alternative.

I wasn't attacking you either, and hope I didn't come out that way, was just saying that a squad of wyches on the charge will be lucky to kill a T4, 2+ save model, particularly without a good combat drug roll.
They ARE the best unit in the codex for handling them thanks to dodge, without a doubt.

With FC and rerolls to hit your odds improve too, but S3 is a bit of a killer versus marines. Its just a shame Agonisers are so meh with that 4+ to wound.

I tend to spend a bit of time math hammering out probabilities because in game it can really help make tactical decisions, which then prove math-hammering is an utter failure.
I like to err on the side of caution, throwing fistfuls of dice across the table is the best solution to most problems because it just creates more chance for things to go wrong for my opponent.
Its also one of the few options DE have in situations like you mentioned, particularly with no Incubi or Dissies (both of which are not exactly optimal choices).

Ironically the less competitive your codex is the more chances you need to take, hoping for those long odds to win.

I also don't think the succubus is a non choice, nearly all the HQ units are pretty pathetic compared to other codexes at the moment IMO.
I had a SW mate take apart about 6 squads in a doubles game with his character, and it was like something from movie marines, heaps of attacks mowing down me and my allies units and them generally running off the table, while he weathered all the return attacks without taking any damage.

And yes mathhammer stated that I threw enough units at him to pip those last few wounds off......

Right, I'm going to move on for now, I'll tweak the Archon stuff and shove it in the b3ta codex as is, Krist, I had thought about stabbing slaves/friendly models, I have another villian Archetype I may or may not plug in.

But as it stands the Archon actually has a chance at a pain point and I don't want to devalue what the heamo does for the army.

How does the succubus gr re rolls to hit ? I think Vect is the only thing in the whole book that currently gets that ? though I think it would be good for the succubus to have something like that or to give wyches she joins some kind of bonus ? I'll look at it properly when I get to her. She needs to stay cheap, not be OP and actually bring something more to the table than a slightly pants 'beatstick', the trick will be to make the choice between the HQ's difficult.

Yup it might be why my hellions seem to work well, you just so many dice at stuff it tends to blow through the fail (mostly) just forcing your oponent to roll a handfull of saves starts to kill stuff, termies definitely don't like lots of saves and it's my preffered method of being rid of them cover/storm sheilds make other methods not very efficient.

Hmm I agree, my DE feel like a gamble all ,the time, yeah best not to compare with equivalents in other books it will make you sad.

Sounds like a horrible game to me, i have two friends that just pass all their saves and completely defy mathammer on a regular basis, I'm polar opposite, my dice fail and fail again and keep going to hammer the point home again in total defiance of probability, the current problem with De is that a turn of fail can be fatal, or at least you are going to spend the rest of the game scraping catchup.

The one change i really hope is that wyches be able to kill disembarked things after they disable transport, cause if that hole in the codex will go away, we may use lances only for what they are supposed to be used - tough targets.

As for Eric, i was probably mistaken, read your blog and saw that entry from Throne of Skulls where they refused to judge your army.

Quote :

Sounds like a horrible game to me, i have two friends that just pass all their saves and completely defy mathammer on a regular basis, I'm polar opposite, my dice fail and fail again and keep going to hammer the point home again in total defiance of probability

There was research with GW dices, they tend to roll 1 more likely, due to empty spaces beneath 1 which is 6.

GW use repacked Chessex dice.

They are crap, I proved that on one of Polish sites.

Test 1


Test 2


Test 3 (10x 20 dice)
1 rolled 31 times
2 rolled 31 times
3 rolled 35 times
4 rolled 34 times
5 rolled 35 times
6 rolled 33 times


All dice from GW.


http://www.cytadela.pl/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=27549

Curently everything can do that, you just have to surround the tank

No worries, but I'm not eric

I have a set of 36 small chessex dice, they seem to roll an appaling amount of ones and twos .... I feel this especially badly when I have struggled to get any penetrates on vehicles and then roll a one , needing a three then at least a four then at least a five in a string asks a bit much of the 25 point dark lance...

hellions are very good for this as h&R plus their mobility makes it easy to wrap a unit around a tank, with the baron on board it's easier to pop it too...

Lets talk about the court now.

I want to make them useable, I really like the idea of this unit but they are too expensive for what you get and are confusing in the role they are supposed to fill shooty ish assaulty kinda ? bear in mind you have to take at least one of each model (does not make for a particularly great unit) add in an archon then a transport, it all adds up very fast and you end up with a unit that is not very good at anything in particular and can only do anything to tanks in cc with the str5 you get .

Making it an actual retinue would be good but I don't know if it is a bit too OP and GW seems to be killing off retinues, though Mordrak gets one ?

lamean's need to confer poison to all poison weps in the unit so 2+ poison for the splinter carbines too ?

It's a tricky one rly as induvidually I quite like the different parts of the court , dunno , rending for the ur-ghuls might help a bit ? maybe let one slyyth buy a blaster/melta/haywire ? would go quite well with a blaster Archon , I'm looking for suggestions but I dont really want to tear it up by the roots and make sweeping changes just for the sake of it as , in theory at least the court is a great concept.

Edit: just thinking maybe if the Medusae had an alternate fire mode which was a focussed beam ?

What do people think ?

EDIT: after some thought here are my initial suggested changes

test as retinue ,

Each lamean you buy increases all poison by 1 point , so 1 gives you 3+ poison 2 gives you 2+ poison on all splinter/poison weapons.

upto 2 SSlyth can exchange splinter carbine for the following , shredder - free, blaster - 10 , haywire gun- 6, heat lance -7

upto one can change his ccwep for a power weapon for 10 points.

Everything else can stay the same (yup even composition etc)

It makes sense to me that the Archon would make some more potent and esoteric weapons for his party , the reduced costs are there as in theory you have already points for the carbine you are exchanging away, the court will be very expensive, but at least it will be useful as they can now do bodyguarding, anti tank and CC.

Meltagun/Heat Lance perhaps?



As for Retinue, we could go with mix of current court, Mandrakes Fiends, "Wrack Doctors", Klaivex bodyguard and Dracons lieutenants?

Court of Archon:
4-9 members

Must pick at least one member (may pick more) from:
*Lhamaean 10
*Klaivex (can take any Klaivex option except of "Klaivex Powers") 35
*Dracon (may pick any Trueborn weapons with Assault firemode or Dracon options) 15
[just to keep court with "court lady/bodyguard leader"]

May take:
Sslyth 35
Ur-Ghul 15
Medusae 15
Mandrake Nightfiend 15 (without Stealth, Infiltrate and MTC)
Acothyst 30 (give Pain Token as long as he live, can take Liquifier or any Acothyst option)



So You must have Klaivex OR Lhamaean OR Dracon and rest can be picked from both lists, within 4-9 limit.

Sounds like a much better version of the court. Also, I think that the lhamaean should affect all poisoned weapons, not just her and the archons (which is how it appears to be in my view), but (as suggested above) that you don't have to take one.

Quote :

Each lamean you buy increases all poison by 1 point , so 1 gives you 3+ poison 2 gives you 2+ poison on all splinter/poison weapons.

Not sure about this one, but maybe (it would undeniably make for a reason to take more than one).

Yeah I put some special weapon access in there , puts a Sslyth over the 40 point mark, which seems about right IMO.

I dont think adding other models in is particularly required, the issue with the court was always with how inefficient it was and it's lack of direction.

Klaivex belongs in an Incubi squad, they will need a seperate 'something' to show their status of favoured mercs/bodyguards to the archons, the court is a different thing. if they needed a doctor surely it would just be a heamonculus, pain points don't do a great deal for the court anyway ?

Unless someone comes up with something particuary interesting I may just stick with my first list of suggested changes for the beta test . there's alot of units so I want to keep things moving along.

Saintspirit - yup I did that with the lame-eans as I'm ok with having to take at least one of everything, its supposed to be a diverse unit, I just made 1. her bonuse more useful so you dont feel like you got mugged for having to take one and 2. gave a reason to take a second, also it annoys the piss out of me that space marines get 2+ poison and DE somehow have not got it worked out yet , rly ? as much as GW hammers on about DE tech being way advanced its almost universally worse in game than imperial equivalents....

How about the ability to drop certain of the models into OTHER units to help spread the love.
IE Lhaemeun (SP) the poison chick can be put in a non poisioned weapon squad to give them 4+ poison (thinking wyches) or into a already poisoned squad to improve their poison by -1, so say with wracks to 3+.

Then do similar with shooting weapons, so they can make all splinter a 3+.

The heat lances are also very necessary.

The reroll mentioned earlier is also only for the drug roll Sorrow, so very unreliable.

I actually gave serious thought to that, I think ultimitely in the end I decided that as the Necron court could already do it and wolfguard kinda do it aswell that it might be a bit 'mee too' and I personally hate it when a subsequent dex gets some of the unique stuff my favorite book has.

I don't want to make massive sweeping kneejerk changes if I can possibly avoid it, I want to leave the court fairly unmolested really, there was nothing wrong with the concept, just the execution, but they are a bit of a pointless fail atm, It's hard for me to be objective , however can I ask you, would you be more inclined to try/take a court if they had my changes applied ?

hopefully my tweaks will stop them being a 'dead' unit
yeah, I did not want to shove too much on the Sslyth, but they make sense really and if you look at it objectively they are a kinda terminator equivalent, also most hq/ command squads have broad access to all sorts of equipment.

I'll have to start doing a WIP document on scribd or something, I'll have to learn some new edit-fu to put the final thing together but I might just do a text document for the Beta ?

Anyway, I'm going to do another unit today , the Succubus actually . I want to get the initial changes nailed out fast then set to testing and tweaking.

Ps: drugs only give re-roll to wound, not to-hit , you said hit

Riight,

Lets see if we can take the 'suck' out of the succubus

going to have to leave the stats alone as they seem appropriate.

I'm giving her a 3++ in CC as she should/would be much better at dodging than her followers.

I think all I would do beyond that is give her some flavour rules.

Gladiatorial master - A Succubus is the apex predator of the arena, having taken single combat beyond an artform she will seek out skilled and esoteric opponents to test and hone her skills against, the thrill of the challange is an intoxicating delight that she cannot resist. Her cult of followers will be invigorated and iinspired to new heights of artistry by her prowess.

Choose one enemy model at the beginning of the game , the Succubus must attempt to engage that model in CC, she may re-roll all failed to-hit rolls against that model. additionally the chosen opponent must re-roll succesful saves. (this would also help Lelith a great deal)

So inspiring is she to her lesser kin that when the Succubus is taking part in the challange any wyches unit she is part of may re roll all ones rolled in cc for the duration of the challange.


Of course I think she will see a points hike with this prob 90 ish points , the inevitable agoniser will take her over 100 ? essentially as she does not have a proper invuln (only CC) and already had a 4+ in the base cost I'm struggling to add more than say 15 points for that , I think the other ability at a stretch is worth maybe 20 so she's got to be around the 90-100 point mark ?

What do we think ?

Combined next post:

Ok so all quiet on the Succubus then ? I guess I'll move onto the next one.

Haemonculus' it is then

to be honest there is very little I would change about them, I do however think there should be a reason to consider an ancient over a normal one currently there is NO reason I can possiblt think of to take one.

I think the main issue is fixing Heamo wargear to be a propper loose approximation of pseudo psychic powers/stuff

If we make it so a normal Heamo can take only one, of these now useful items and the ancient gets two and maybe access to some slightly crazier stuff as you have paid his inflated price to gain access ?

I was also wondering if a mechanic to show that they experiment with their own bodies would be appropriate ? the problem then is that it would add cost and I don't really want to put their price up so I am inclined to leave it .....

I may have to look at the haemo Arcane wargear as part of this revision so I'll be back in a bit , just sticking this out there to see if anyone has thoughts.

Ok so all quiet on the Succubus then ? I guess I'll move onto the next one.

Haemonculus' it is then

to be honest there is very little I would change about them, I do however think there should be a reason to consider an ancient over a normal one currently there is NO reason I can possiblt think of to take one.

I think the main issue is fixing Heamo wargear to be a propper loose approximation of pseudo psychic powers/stuff

If we make it so a normal Heamo can take only one, of these now useful items and the ancient gets two and maybe access to some slightly crazier stuff as you have paid his inflated price to gain access ?

I was also wondering if a mechanic to show that they experiment with their own bodies would be appropriate ? the problem then is that it would add cost and I don't really want to put their price up so I am inclined to leave it .....

I may have to look at the haemo Arcane wargear as part of this revision so I'll be back in a bit , just sticking this out there to see if anyone has thoughts.