Fixing De 5th Ed project

I actually was "out" for some time but I'll discuss Sucky later.

Main problem with ancient upgrade is 30 point price tag. Too much, even for guy that pick Warpheads and/or Wazdakka in his Ork army

15 points for upgrade
or
ability to have additional Pain Token that can be given for any unit on top of better stats. Many people bring Haemi for sole purpose of Pain tokens so let's focus on that (especially since this pain token could be given to ANY unit, including bikers, scourges and fleeters). Maybe even bump upgrade cost to 40 points then due to usefulness (add pain token to Wyches and have fleet. Add on Reavers and move like Bike. Add guy and token on huge Wrack unit for three pain tokens). Possibilities are endless...

Also 6++ for Haemo and 5++ for Ancient. I think this would be elegant solution of "experiments on their bodies"?

Hmm dunno, you would ultimately still have to pay for that, really I think perhaps the best solution is to give him natural FNP which makes sense (no cost increase) , ofc he will still have/give pain points.


I think I may have a way of making the Ancient more attractive without giving out an extra point to anyone, thing is even urien can only give it to wracks etc.

I like your idea in some ways so I will try an work it in possibly as an artefact.

I currently like how they operate, mine often palms off his token to the wyches so they can go stompy without him being a liability in combat , its also great fun zipping around in a raider with an LQ gun and somehow in character I don't really see heams as fighty types , more utility characters.

Maybe they could have/purchase an ability to 'heal' Talos etc in game

On the Succubus, I would agree with the flavour rules, however I do think she should have some small invul save against shooting say 5++ or 6++ with the cost stated (unless she had the option of Shadowfield/something similar) since considering her save otherwise shouldn't be worth 15 points just for +1 to half invul given Storm Shield/Belt of Russ/Iron Halo costing only 25-30 points (less on Terminators).

On the Ancient Haemonculus, maybe consider lowering the price of all Arcane Wargear/Webway Portals which is counterbalanced by his price tag? Also I like the idea of repairing/healing the Talos and or the Cronos (the Cronos needs love D; ), though maybe have the option to buy an ability which allows the Talos and Cronos to be taken the same way Chaos Spawn count as for Chaos (2 for 1 slot, act as independent unit)?

maybe allow the ancient to purchase army wide options for coven units.
Urien's grote upgrade, combat drugs for +x points for wracks and +x for grotes, talos/cronus 1-3 per unit.
Urein would have all 3, ancients pick 1.

Ok here's my proposed changes to Heams and Arcane warger.

No changes to stats , they now have Native FNP of their own as well as a pain point.

Costs stay the same also.

Equipment wise I have moved the LQ gun and the Scissorhand into the equipment options as they seem out of place in the arcane wargear also changes I have made to the arcane stuff and avalability kinda require it.

Changed:

Mindphse gauntlet - now only take one test but it is modified for number of hits, eg 3 hits = -3 str and ld for the tests. (prob still crap)

The Ancient has a couple of nice advantages over the standard one now, firstly he can give his pain point to any unit at the start of the game, he does not have to be with them.

Secondly normal heams will now only have access to one arcane item and ancients two, I have also not only improved Arcane wargear accross the board but it is slightly more powerful for the ancient as he would have acess to older and better items and also be more skilled in their application (technically you have paid for this in his base cost)

Changes to arcane warger as follows: ( the one per army restrictions stay the same as per book)

Animus Vitae - gains rending

Caskett - D3 uses per game, heamo ancient gets +1 to each of the D6's rolled.

Soul trap - each successful kill/Ld check you can double any stat you like but you can only double it once.(max ten)

Vexator mask - Ancient gets -2 on the test for his

Archangel - D3 uses ,Ancient gets -1 to ld check

Hexrifle- tests are at -1 if used by Ancient

Shattershard- one use only -1t modifer to enemies test if used by Ancient.

Cruicible- D3 uses -1 ld modifier if used by ancient
Orb- D3 uses

Gate- one use only - everything under tamplate takes d3 rending hits (same stat line)

WWP- cant fix it ..... though soem of the archons stuff helps here ;o)

*NEW* Agony Amp - Heamo can give any pain points he has to models within 6" and any model/unit within 6" may burn a pain point to heal a single wound.

*NEW* - Null Cube - psychic powers cast at heamo or unit he is with are shut down on a 5+ (improved to 4+ for ancient) on a subsequent succesful LD check the cube converts the absorbed energies into a pain point.

Obviously I'll need to look at the costings but bear in mind the current prices are way too much, I'm tempted to leave as is for test purposes at least.

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Okay, Asdrubael will get 'Archenemy' Rule from 'new' Archon set. bump to 250 points

His Master Tactician rule gets modified somewhat, the seize on a 4+ remains but he will also now have reserves manipulation +1/-1 he can use this on both the DE and opponents reserve rolls

Now he's a sneaky mess-with-your head/game character as well as a beat stick.

The Dais- Ditch stupid 10 model squad requirement thing (retains transport capicity becomes armour 12-12-10 , has a shock prow, enhanced sails and gains Aerial asault and a 'Midnight array' , vehicle has a 3++ shadowfield save and a nighfield.

Sounds really good right ? well I have seen many storm ravens with 3+ cover go down and they are not open topped either, this is still more fragile and once you fail one thats it no more save, depending on playtesting results I may make it 2++ but drop the armour to 11-11-10...

Lady malys she stays the same but gains the New Archenemy Rules

Drazhar he gains a 4++ dodge save, loose reposte because it is frankly a waste of time, I do feel he should be capable of Threatening characters more than he does , bring back the 2 wounds a hit thingy ? give him some form of ID ? or is he 'okay' with just a ++ save ? he will possibly gain from the tormentors depending what happens with them when I get to it.

Lelith gains the 'Gladatorial Mastery' rule from the revised Succubus , I think thats all she needs really .

Urien- gains any of the relevent stuff from the Haem update rules

Sliscus stays the same

DerpCrapitator, becomes a unit upgrade character and he and his mandrake unit appear together either the usual way or with his placement rule, I think dropping and assaulting is a bit much but they have a painpoint so can drop and do some semi useful shooting now and be ready to threaten the following turn (as the unit wil benefit from his pain). I honestly think just making him an upgrade character makes both him and Mandrakes a more attractive proposition ( bit like Baron/Hellions really )

Baron is just fine

I like those fixes you did to the arcane wargear (particularly to the Animus, I really ike the idea behind it), and Ancients getting bonuses to them is alo very nice.
Not sure about decapitator being an upgrade, I know it is bad but one thing with him is that he works alone. I think rather that he is alone, but can assault when he appears (perhaps not being able to use baleblast the turn he appears).

Personally, I've always thought since the Dais is Vect's personal ride that it should have all the vechicle upgrades possible, since if its an option for the regular smuck why not have Vect have it or improved versions of the upgrades only for the Dais. Also, what is the supposed cost of the Dais?

A problem with your changes to Lelith and Drazhar is regarding Drazhar's invunerable save, combined with the fact he has more Strength, +2 Strength Power Weapon and Eternal Warrior would cast doubt on any reason to take Lelith (especially if he did the 2 wounds a hit) unless Gladatorial Master was improved, maybe combination of:
* to have it effect the first round of any combat she is in apart from the designated target, as it would apply as intended at her target (explained by her trying to quickly dispatch anyone getting in her way to her target)
* granted re-roll failed to wound rolls against the designated model
* Imploy her squad to fight harder then any other Succubus could ever do by granting re-roll fail to hit rolls regardless of number rolled?

Regarding the rest of the cast, honestly no problems really (tempted to say Malys should be able to seize on a 5+, little fluff banter between her and Vect lol).

Gotta say: Vect + Webway Portals / Duke Sliscus = Profit?

The gladatorial master thingy works just fine, honestly I rolled a whole bunch of tests and it's a good boost without being OP, it does not grant re-roll to wound as there is the potential for that with drugs. (for a normal succubus)

I'm essentially keeping the Dais cost the same but trying to make it worht 200 ish, I can add the option to buy all the extra guff for it ? throwing it all on it ld force a cost increase and most of it you wont want/ use half the time, I'll list it as it is and give some 'upgrade' options with costs.

Lots of things need 5's to hit lelith and are at -1 attack in the process, her invuln is better than Drazhars too.

Shes' around 50 points cheaper so Drazhar 'should' be better !!! depending on a bit of further testing I may give Leltih an improved gladatorial mastery that gives her re-rolls to wound the target as her str 3 is a ball-che, though bear in mind re-roll to hits actually help with this (more hits will = more wounds) and having to re-roll invulns is just nasty ....

Lelith is significantly cheaper than Drazhar and does different things better than him , for the 50 point saving I would be inclined to take lelith over Drazhar most of the time . bear in mind against a target character she will have roughly 8-9 attacks re rolling to hit and they need to re roll invulns/saves ? I think the re-roll wounds might be too much tbh, remember she can get FC for str4 too , I'll do some tests I kinda see leliths duels as a drawn out ballet wheras Drazhar is all about making you dead as efficiently as possible.

Nah I think Malys is fine, she's already taken a boost with no cost increase, and she's kept her deployment shenanigans too , any more than that and she starts to be a no brainer, and I kinda dislike no brainer options.

with all the changes I have done so far it opens up alot of combo's and ways to play the army you would not have done before, yup portals is certainly more viable .

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hewwow again,

Another day at work and another unit to look at ... I think I may try and step it up a bit and look at two units a day, I'll do one in the morning and one in the evening , gotta fire throught this as getting a b3ta doc done and out for testing will be that hard part.

Incubi - we'll do these boys today - I think GK was a bit of a kick in the teeth for these guys, I have been less convinced of their value in an all comers list of late.

To be honest I would not change the stats at all, they work fine, two things bother me about the unit , the kliavex cost alot of points , maybe GW knew no one was going to use it as there is still no model ?

And also the lack of tormentors.

the paying for squad abilities via a sgt is just daft, I'm going to suggest the following:

bump price to 24 points.

Incubi get onslaught as a basic squad ability (it hardly does anything anyway )

now I have thought about Tormentors long and hard , I think the described effects of tormentors would probably be covered quite adequitely by giving them counts-as offensive/defensive grenades ? this is just the simplest solution however I would personally be inclined to give them something a bit different and more fluffy/evocative.

Tormentor wave - Activate at beginning of each combat round before any other dice are rolled , each model in enemy unit takes a T test , each model that fails reduces its WS, I & A by half the number of Incubi in the squad (Klaivex counts as 2) to a minimum of 1

Changes to Klaivex + 20 points but has Murderous Assault as standard.
Bloodstone is 10 points
Demiklaives are 15 (bear in mind you already paid for the power weapon in the base cost)
*New* Bodyguard a single designated character that must be with the unit may re-allocate D3 hits before to wound-is resolved to the escorting Incubi unit. ??? points ?

I want something to show their status as common bodyguards but retinue status seems overmuch to me ? the hits thing would allow you the choice to put some Incubi in the way of some damage, bodyguard stylee....

Definitely needs playtesting, any thoughts ?

I would start the price of bodyguard the same as clone field. Its a slightly weaker effect, but would stack with clone field/shadow field or be used by ic without clone field option. So, should pay a more for affect. Not sure if factor lowering or raising cost would be stronger, so start playtest/math-hammer/discussion at equal pts.

hmm, the bodyguard thing is a two edged sword of course as the hits are never wasted and only works IF he is in the unit/anything is left , I'm tempted to go with 10-15 points as a baseline.

Think I may just drop onslaught entirely.

Ell looking at the book Grots are up next but personally Ithink they are fine . Anyone got any glaring issues with them ?

Again moving into wracks I think they do exactly what they should do and fill a role in the dex , judging from the armies I have seen about they are common mini squads , tis a bit rubbish to see them used as minimal filler to gain access to vehicles/ pain points all the time , ut I guess thems the breaks, nothing 'wrong' with it in the grand scheme of things.....

Again as much as everyone wails on Mandrakes I see nothing inherantly wrong with them , perhaps the changes to derpcrapitator, heams and Archons will make them more viable, I think so

Harlequins I don't feel I can touch as they are the same in the CWE book , they clearly suck and I would dearly love to completely re-do the unit but Im over a barrell , IF they get changed in 6th edition I'll revisit this, unless you think we can justify having them 'fixed' ? i would love to see the solitaire in the DE book too ....

Can't fiddle with trueborn all that much, fixes to blasters/lances/pricing will see them improved, currently I take them because I must but they bounce oft as not....

That leaves Brides, and they DO require a look see, BRB

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I have this Idea for a DE Special character I cant get rid of , its an ex reaver Jetfighter ace.....

If I have the energy Ill write up a fluff piece and give him an entry in my book.

Hekatrix Blood brides - I would bump them to WS5 to be honest and normal hekatrii should be WS5 !!

Ok other changes prob should bump to at least 14 points

options
Stays the same , with same quantities , though I feel the weapons should be 5 points a go, ten points is waay too much when they are hardly worth taking most of the time .

Up to two brides may also buy blast pistols @ 10 points a pop

I think those changes should be sufficient , I don't really want to do a Ward and stack heaps of special rules on them

Ok onto the troops,

Warriors stay pretty much exactly the same , though a points drop to 8pts would not be unreasonable, I think that changes to darklight /transports will probably balance things out though.

I think the 'tenth' model should be able to take a blaster/shredder as well as choosing from the heavy weapons already listed, until lances see a change I'm dropping blasters/pistols to 10 points (in line with melta which is still better) very tempted to give shredders rending and maybe a points hike , would you take shredders then ? maybe I'll put it in the test dex to see what comes back.....

Until 6th ed swings around, which I am hopeful will see an improvement to lances/vehicles the only thing I would do with our transports is give a points reduction, I think 50 points for a Raider is not unrealistic, they die so easily and a single lance without TL is generally ineffectual this means that when you run them with the compulsory flicker fields it'll come in at 60 points.

Venoms I am not sure about dropping the price on at most maybe 5 points, the reason the raider gets the drop is its crappy gun , but the splinter fire is generally effective and it comes with an FF, I think maybe give it a base cost of 50 so that with the gun upgrade its 60 , so in line with the raider, smae price but they fill different roles in the army. Will start with the reduction and see what comes back over the fence.

Wyches Tis a fairly dependable unit, my main gripe with them is wych weapon costings, so I would see them reduced to five points a pop like on the Brides, I still don't expect I'll use them.

Blast pistol will take the reduction to 10 points (all my reduced price lance weps will be put back up again if lances get a boost in 6th)

I think again I would allow another wych to buy a blast pistol @ ten points so between her and the Hek you can have two if you wish.

So yeah just some minor tweaking here.

Fast attack next , has anyone SEEN the bikes the crons get ? jesus , and they cost less than reavers ....

Double and triple posts combined. /mod

I'd say the shredder could get a similarity to the Doom Weaver that the Eldar Night Spinner has (Rending, and next time when affected unit moves, they count as in difficult and dangerous terrain). Not sure what the pirice would be if that was added, but I'd say it would be a little higher (it would make it much better, IMO)

Riight on to fast attack today then.

Hellions, I actually quite like these, my only gripe is the price, looking at what they get on its own probably makes 16 points seem reasonable but ultimately it's on a t3 5+ Save unit there is a limit to the value you can get , that fragility is a massive balance factor to just about anything.

Look at Harlequins , loads of stuff/abilitys but often as easy to kill as 4-6 point geq's considering you pay through the ASS for the VoT upgrade they have no business being 24points a pop, thats Purifyer territory , and they have better guns better weapons better durability, transport access , and effective psychic powers/buffs in the cost ..... lets not talk about DCA's by comparison, there will be tears.

Anyway I was trying to illustrate a point but I digress ....

Honestly the only change I think I would make to hellions is to drop them to 14 points a pop and thats being conservative for the sake of balance , arguably the could go lower.

Reavers- I dont honestly know what to do with reavers, they are in theory really quite expensive for what you get , sure being lower t and save is par for the course with DE but GW fail to grasp that if they are going to charge out the bum for fragile things then they should at least hit like a sack of coffin nails to the wedding vegetables ...

Drop to 20 points for a start , I would dearly love for them to have proper meltas but we get what we have got , at least the heat lances are in character though badly executed as its supposed to be a superior tech but actually worse in most cases than 'standard' melta .

I gtg now but will add to this later

Perhaps give reavers a 4+ save? Craftworld eldar jetbikes get a 3+ save, after all...

Of hellions I have no experience, but they do indeed seem seriously fragile, so I think dropping their cost seems like a simple and pretty good solution.

Okay, So I got through the first couple posts on the first page and it just makes me sick.

You just need to learn to play with whats supplied, yeah its not perfect but nothing about this game is.

Learn to use whats supplied effectively and you will win. I've beaten Mech Guard, CSM, Dualwing termies, Nids, Tau, Eldar, and GK with the dark eldar. You just need to use what you have efficently.

Problem with wracks? Through a haemonculus with them and rip troops apart. Problem with vehicle spam armies? Use cover and flat outs and blast DL and HGs.

Blood brides are bad? Really? what a joke, you can with get 3D6 attacks, dock TONS of attacks from the enemy (place the bride touching 2 bases) or you can get 2 hits and 2 wounds every time.

As for some of the HQ, we lack alot, but when you can spam things (Which EVERY army does) than do it and profit. Just because they didn't tickle your fancy by making the army over powered in damage doesnt mean you need to write a completely new codex.

This honestly seems like a well planned Troll than serious business.

In short:

Use what the good people at GW give you and dont cry because you dont have 5str 5 tough and a 3+5++ save on every person FFS!

MrBrokenAsz, it is prefectly allright to disagree with the writer but

Quote :

3. We encourage and promote constructive and positive discussions about all aspects of the Games Workshop hobby. We do not wish to see negative topics or comments

As it seems, Sorrowshard does see (if not all so at least parts of) the book as inefficient, and wants to fix what. I can't say I agree with everything here (I personally find at least a majority of the book very good). If you now have done so well with everything from the book, perhaps you should explain how for example the clawed fiend or dais of destruction can be useful, instead of insulting.

MrBrokenAzs wrote:

Okay, So I got through the first couple posts on the first page and it just makes me sick.

Because it's how it should have been in the first place? take some deep breaths , go loook at the GK and Cron books and even to some extent the SW and IG books and with that in mind come back for another read.

You just need to learn to play with whats supplied, yeah its not perfect but nothing about this game is.

That really just says to me "yup it's ****" deal with it, well I am sick of dealing with the stuff GW saddles xenos players with.

Learn to use whats supplied effectively and you will win. I've beaten Mech Guard, CSM, Dualwing termies, Nids, Tau, Eldar, and GK with the dark eldar. You just need to use what you have efficently.

I 'm not really sure what you are trying to say with this , any book/player can beat any other book/player in the right circumstances. I was in the top three and the highest ranked DE player at ToS, the book is flawed and underpowered, it wil not age well, arguably (provably) it is already aging badly, seen many DE in tourneys recently ? seen any winning tourneys consistently ? in fact generally they struggle to make it into the top five

Problem with wracks? Through a haemonculus with them and rip troops apart. Problem with vehicle spam armies? Use cover and flat outs and blast DL and HGs.

? if you had played GK or crons and even to some extent IG you would know cover saves are almost worthless now, torrents of str6-8 shooting will kill you dead unless the table is covered in Blos, darklight is an overpriced missile launcher on 90% of armour targets, they are a good supression weapon I suppose but as an armies primary source of AT they are really sub par , and if by HG you mean haywires, necrons and GK might as well ignore those so they are no longer a viable competitive choice.Blood brides are bad? Really? what a joke, you can with get 3D6 attacks, dock TONS of attacks from the enemy (place the bride touching 2 bases) or you can get 2 hits and 2 wounds every time.

Oh lol, you are going to use blood brides as an example of a good unit in the dex ? really ? they are currently a pointless unit , no reason to take them over norma wyches as they cut into valuable ELite choices and dont really offer anything wyches dont. I thought everyone knew this ? ooh 3d6 str3 attacks for THIRTY points ? so thats err 11 extra hits on average which is roughly three wounds which = 1 dead marine , for 30 points ? you are talking like they can do all that at once, they cant , you have to stack the same wych weapons to really gain the benefits you describe and they are hideously overpriced for what you get, they are actually more points effective without them at all. honestly its well known brides are arse.

As for some of the HQ, we lack alot, but when you can spam things (Which EVERY army does) than do it and profit. Just because they didn't tickle your fancy by making the army over powered in damage doesnt mean you need to write a completely new codex.

Actually , they tried to sell us a glass hammer, i have repetedly stated I like the glass, they got that fine, but in order for that to WORK they have to hit hard enough to at least balance out there weaknesses, DE AT is poor , it just is , again this is a commonly known fact even our limited melta is worse. I know lets meak an army for what is essentially a mechanized game that cant reliably open tanks , genius .....

Uhm , I have left a hell of a lot of stuff largely alone, its hardly completely new at all, where things have been made better you pay for it where things were overpriced/ underused they have been improved slightly.

This honestly seems like a well planned Troll than serious business.

Deadly serious, Deadly.Serious.

In short:

Use what the good people at GW give you and dont cry because you dont have 5str 5 tough and a 3+5++ save on every person FFS!

GW failed on this book, they really did, maybe it's to early for you to see it, maybe you could list all the tourneys you have won or placed the top five in with your DE ?

Exaggerate much ? you clearly have not read anything at all on here properly if you think I'm in the process of giving out those kind of boosts across the board you clearly have not.

If you feel that strongly about it can I please ask you refrain from derailing this thread further.

I

Sorrowshard wrote:

Reavers- I dont honestly know what to do with reavers, they are in theory really quite expensive for what you get , sure being lower t and save is par for the course with DE but GW fail to grasp that if they are going to charge out the bum for fragile things then they should at least hit like a sack of coffin nails to the wedding vegetables ...

Drop to 20 points for a start , I would dearly love for them to have proper meltas but we get what we have got , at least the heat lances are in character though badly executed as its supposed to be a superior tech but actually worse in most cases than 'standard' melta .

I gtg now but will add to this later

Mmm, I'm not sure I have all that many problems with Reavers, giving them 4+ saves would drive the final nails into the coffin on the Scourges, and you can get 3+ by boosting, hrm, it's a toughie, would prob go for a reduction to 20 points a pop, give the slight reductions to blasters/special wepas costings, I think caltrops cost too much too, if the game was less machanised.

I think 10 for blasters and heat lances and caltrops can drop to at least 15, thing is even at that price you are not going to take them alongside the heat lances/blasters, still its a tweak in the right direction, maybe if they could effect armour ? I just can't see the caltrops being all that effective at doing stuff to tanks, maybe resolve hits at ap - ?
.
So yeah a slight points drop across the main model and equipment, unless anyone is particualrly in love with the idea of caltrops doing something to vehicles alongsode the points drop ?

Scourges require quite an extensive overhaul really so I'll come back and address them in a further post.

Right onward and upward.

Scourges:

fixy fixy :possible drop to 18-20 points unless we feel the following changes actually make them worth over 20 a pop ?

they can choose to be jump or jetpacks at the start fo the turn OFC jetpacks will give relentless.

They can also now split fire, so there is no longer necessarily the issue with half or more of the unit doing jack each time it fires.

All current suggested tweaks to shredders/blasters apply .

Beastmasters- V little to change here other than making the Fiend a Monstrous creature. note:this may warrant a jump to 45 points or so ? a compromise would be to give him rending with no cost increase ?

No comments on the Scourge alterations ?

Okaay , lets continue, should be at a point soon where I can start putting the first draft for testing together.

transports

Really Ithink we can do a couple of things here, in line with my accross the board reduction in the price of darklight really raiders should be a base cost of around 50 points (so 60 with the obligatory FF's)

Otherwise they can remain at 60 points but allow units inside to shoot if moved 12" maybe an extension to Aerial assault so to speak ?

Ill come back In a bit and look at the vehicle upgrades as they could do with a little look, though alot of them will remain the same I should think.

Edit: Continuation. Vehicle upgrades Edits anything not mentioned here stays the same.

TGL's If enemy unit is within range of multiple TGL's they are at -2 Ld

Retrofires confuse me , I dont want to devalue the Duke but why you cant hop out beats me , I guess I'll leave them be though ... its not so bad if you consider one of my suggested rules changes means passangers can fire from a cruising speed vehicle in a DE army ?

Splinter racks will effect ALL splinter weapons ( possible balancing rule only re roll 1's for all splinter weps ? )

Night fields apply the negative range modifier to nightfighting spotting rolls (sry , just makes sense)

Well on to Heavy support next, nearly there !

I'm off work next week so I'll knowck together the B3ta.

okay, onto heavy support ,

Ravager Ultimately stays the same , though i am thinking about altering Desintegrators a bit to make them more usable. I think a bump to str6 is one good option the other is to give it a blast mode instead, I prefer the str bump personally , though I figured the blast would make the old school DE players happy.

Just with the rise of psycannon and psybolt spam a str6 disinti seesm pretty reasonable, and you would still take DL's first for AT as even with nine shots str 6 is not much cop vs anything AV12 and over , you still need 6's to penetrate a rhino ?

Talos/Chronos - err , these guys are only mediocre because MC's are not great in 40k really, they are ok I suppose, the chronos was never going to be anything but a novelty given that pain points ultimately are not really game changing.

I think I'll have to leave them as is , though it's tempting to give them a 5++ ? I think that as my archon changes ahve made WWP's and reserve strategies a bit more viable you will prob get a bit more from them anyway , would be interested to hear any thoughts people have on Talos/Chronos , currently I dont' use them and even with a signifiacnt power boost I can't see the mtaking the place of Ravagers and Razorwings for me, the only other thing I can think of is making them available in units of 3 (ala Carnifex) for Coven armies ?

tow talos and a chronos as a unit from a WWP has potential ....

Razorwing- not going to touch it and I think it is fine, possible 6th edition changes for flyers will prob make it worth every penny.

Void Raven - keep the same I live in hope lances will get a fix in the next edition. I will however fix the damn mine and the Implosion missiles because they suck utterly.

Void Mine - one use- large blast templete (use the same placement rules) infantry must make an I check to get out the way or are removed from play, invulns may be taken vehicles take d3 penetrating hits.

Implosion missiles down to 20 points each (and still overpriced) personally will still take shatterfields , I think even if the same price Iwould prob take shatterfeilds ....

Well thats that then, I'll put together the B3ta next week and then start some playtests