Help with my Tactica

So a week or so ago, I asked for some advice on how to build a list that can handle MEQ, and still do "okay."

I implemented several of these changes today in a Planetfall mission, and was tabled by turn 3, with only two troops on the table.

I'm going to post my list for people to see here, but I don't think the list is the issue, I think it's the Archon playing the list.

HQ:
3 Haemon in Wych Raiders w/ Hexrifles.

Troops:
7 Wyches
Hekagonizer
Shardnet
HWGs
Raider w/FF
(Three of these troop choices.)

Elite:
4 Blasterborn
Venom w/ SC
(Two of these Elite Choices)

HS:
2 Ravagers w/FF

FA:
5 Scourges w/ HWBlasters

How I'm playing:

I tend to get everyone on the deployment line, with my Wych Raiders in the front. Typically, my opponents are reserving most things. I will mass move forward with everything. I will shoot at the deadliest things with all my lances, typically Land Raiders, Preds, Razorbacks, Stormravens, then Rhinos if I have nothing else to shoot at.

I'm usually losing 2 Raiders, sometimes more by the end of Turn 1. There's usually no cover worth hiding behind, and any cover I can "Hide" behind is see through (Ruins, trees, etc.) so they can still pop shots in them all day long.

By Turn 2, I'm assaulting anything that I can reach. Usually I'll be facing off with a SC by this point, or an SC will be Assaulting me in the bottom of turn 2, and I'm going to know my end is near. If I can tar-pit the SC, I will never kill it, and I will be getting counter charged to death by Turn 3.

Bottom T2 usually results in another pair of dead Raiders or Ravagers. Sometimes a Venom or two as well. If the Trueborn survive the fall I'm doing great!

Lances are typically doing nothing special by turn 3, and my assault units are tar-pitting or are going to be getting shot up. If they can rout a unit they will be dead by the bottom of T3. Most of the people I play against spread everything out, and don't really give me opportunities to stay in CC.
By the bottom of T3, the SC has wiped out my tar-pit, and the SC along with a barrage of marines are dashing toward my paper planes, because they're running out of infantry to fight. My Haemons are typically still sitting in Raiders taking pot shots, but they're not doing much but going down with the Raider.

Top of T4 is pretty much my turn to assess if tying is even an option. Usually there is an objective or two that are overrun with marines, and I'm going to be sitting pretty with maybe a troop at half strength. Usually I have only this troop remaining, and I'm going to get forced into trying to contest one objective with them.

If my wyches made it into CC by for the bottom of T4, then I'm either going to be dead, or I'll barely contest. Yay! My Scourges are probably dead on the bottom of this turn while they eat boat loads of S9 ranged weapons.

T5 is usually pretty boring. I'll maybe move a venom, maybe shoot something, And probably drop TB into CC to give my troops a chance at holding a point.

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong on the whole. I am trying to play an assault based army, with Blasterborn as AT support. I very rarely get to use FNP, because I'm being hit with a Power weapon, S6 or better weapon. I'm questioning the purpose of FNP on the whole at the moment. I realize that it's there to serve as a buffer against bolter fire, but I don't seem to ever face it. I'm usually facing melta, or lascannons, or typhoon missiles.

I simply don't get many saves unless I'm in CC. My FFs seem to hold up okay, and I'm rather pleased with them.

I worry that I might just not be playing the "right" army, or if I think this army is something that it's not. I don't really believe that it's not the right army for me, but I do suspect that I might view it as something it's not. (I view it as a strong CC army, with decent lance support.)

Can I please get some guidance from some of the more experienced Archons on this matter? I'm just getting bummed out to some extent. I really don't want to pick up a Deathwing army, but I've honestly considered it at this point.

Kudos for you on playing an assaulty list. Needs more specifics, though. Sounds like Mephiston/Razorback spam? Because those are a *****.

I have faced a Mephiston every game except for one. Typically, There are Razorbacks tearing me to pieces, or there are Deepstriking, FNP, Melta Assault marines that I can't do much to. I will be playing this same player for at least 5 more games in my league. He's a newer player, as I am. (He seems to be doing it right though.... At least more right than I am doing! Haha)

I don't bother using poisoned weapons anymore, minus what comes on my Venoms. (I'm usually taking 2 Venoms per game.) I tried using heavier doses of Poison weapons, and watched maybe 10% of my wounds ever evolving into actual kills. (This is coming from an average of 36 shots, if I get even a single kill, I've done fantastic.) I have effectively degraded into using my Blasterborn as AI as well as AT.

I'm almost to the point where I'm considering to drop my Ravagers in favor of more wyches so I simply can flood him with targets and waste shots. However, this comes with the deadly consequence of lacking the ability to at least attempt to keep Razorbacks from shooting at me. Also, S8 AP2 works really good on Marines, but it seems silly that I'm wasting shots into marines.

Perhaps with my play-style, I should be considering larger units on the whole, in order to help mitigate the damages and losses I'm taking. However, this will push me toward a WWP list. While I'm not really opposed to the idea in the least, I have somehow mentally trained myself to believe that Raiders are wych deposit tools, and I am insane for considering otherwise.

Another important part of my tactica, is that I plain out don't care about objectives. I solely care about killing everything on the table that is fielded against me. I don't believe in the idea of taking and holding objectives, would rather bring a game to a draw with no one holding any points, than sitting to hold one myself. This mentality may change a bit if I were to shift to a WWP list, but with my mechanized assault, there's no way for me to hold points effectively.

Is this enough detail to describe my tactica, or are there other specifics that I should expand upon to give you a better grasp on my mindset?

You are playing far too aggressively. You can and should play this way vs shooty weak CC lists but not vs meph-razorspam. He wants to get within about 18" of you to bring all his shooty and nasty CC to bear on you at once. By charging at him you are playing right into his hands, im not surprised you are getting punished!

You have to make him come to you. You said your opponents spread out, excellent, play an extreme refused flank. Elect to go second if you get to choose. and either full reserves or castle in the corner facing the least long range shooty and engage from 36" ideally with NS.

Darklances stunlock razors. SC eat devs that usually dont have FNP. Razors are easy to suppress, well not easy but thanks to regularly playing GK and crons i think everything that doesn't have fortitude or self repairs is easy to suppress!

Use your blasters and wyches defensively to nuke things that get too close like DS units. You need to keep your wyches alive to take objectives late game if you can't table your opponent.

Avoid meph for as long as possible then torrent him with darklight. He will die.

Like you said your list is solid but i would lose the hexrifles and nets and swap the scourges for another ravager and buy a bunch of NS.

Don't give up! The world does not need anymore muhreens! Good luck!

Your problems are many. A big issue is how up in your opponent's face you're being early game. You have to, HAVE to take advantage of our ability to snipe from a distance, then redeploy via flat-out when your opponent attempts to retaliate. At our core we are a shooty army, with some close combat flair, not the other way around. Wyches must be decisively employed to support your shooting elements, tying up problematic threats. Try liquifiers on your haemonculii instead of hex rifles. 50% chance of ap3 or better on a cheap template weapon? Yes please!

I'm actually in favour of engaging fast. From your posts I can't see a whole lot that I would have done differently, except bring different tools for the job.

First off, Mephiston. As a single model he's easy to hide but it goes without saying that any poison shot available should be fired at this bastard at every opportunity. The best you can do is to preemptively engage him with a Wych squad, and let the melee play out over the course of 4 or 5 turns (ideally).

Secondly, Razorback spam. This is an issue I still struggle with myself. In shooty DE lists, the larger distance between forces means there is a little more (not much) leeway in whether any given target should be handled. Which is great, because with DLs it sometimes feels like you're trying to bash down a steel door with a wooden baseball bat. In assaulty lists, however, sometimes things need to die NOW. The best I can advise is to tweak your list to incorporate some Heat Lances. The delivery systems might be fragile ones but there's no arguing with their consistency in neutralising vehicles.

Lastly, FnP MEQ. Anyone who's ever played against a skilled DoA player learned the hard way that Wyches simply don't have the oomph to spearhead an assault list* - whereas Incubi cut right through all that ********. You might want to swap out a Wych unit for some.


* Flak may be directed to my inbox.

Perhaps Incubi are the saving grace that I've needed to really tear apart some MEQ. Would to keep the traditional Mechanized assault, or would you go WWP for a list like that to save points that would typically be spent on Raiders to try and output Heat Lances? RJBs or Talos carry them, (As do Scourges I think?) Would RJBs be the ideal candidates for carrying them? Also, Do you suggest Bladevanes? I heard so much negativity about RJBs that I simply never grabbed their model, perhaps they might be part of the saving grace for me? Less Darklight, More Metla?

I won't say that it's silly (to me), but I think if we're sitting near our backfield trying to snipe off marine tanks and otherwise, we're begging to get tabled. We're trying to shoot Lances that are about as consistent as my work ethic into things with 11+ Front armor, and really just hoping for the best. Also, We're sacrificing precious turns keeping them at range, where we simply can't kill them. SM flat out has better range, and better equipment than us. They have 48" Lascannons, Typhoons, and so forth that all outrange Dark Lances. Why we would ever try to avoid combat with them, I can't personally swallow. Nightshields are inferior in my eyes, because if I can shoot them, They can STILL shoot me back. The goal with getting into CC as quickly as possible is to minimize the "Shoot me back" part.

Perhaps we don't play with large enough terrain. I simply just can't seem to hide Raiders away from fire.

Regarding FNP MEQ, that's the only MEQ I've ever played, and it's beyond frustrating for me to handle. I can imagine doing okay against non-FNP MEQ, but the FNP MEQ is just absurd. I feel like I have to dump Darklight and melta into them in order to actually kill them. So Incubi and RJBs might serve me well? What would you recommend trimming in order to execute this?

IF you would check out my ETC army list I play a wych list as well and I easily smash ladyboy face.

Your tactic is pretty good for this army but you MUST prioritize, kill any anti-tank vehicle in the first turn while your raiders are moving 24", turn two break open any transports you find so that you may get your wyches into the well deserved combat because if you move 24 in front with the 12 you already have you can easily be in assault distance

Being aggressive is GREAT but this army is a glass cannon, If you make ONE mistake, fail ONE assault or strech your army around the whole map you will loose, hit hard, fast and with overwhelming power but not push it

I have no problem with armies such as GK, BA razorback spam with mephiston.

Prioritize, prioritize, prioritize!

Incubi are a very hard counter to angry FnP marines. They have higher weapon skill, strike first (unless charged, then it's a tie assuming the BA has FC), and ignore armour and thus FnP. Mathhammer wise, each Incubi will kill a marine each on the charge.

Biggest draw-back is the lack of grenades. If you are going after jumpers then this might not be an issue as often they will need to expose themselves when moving in close. However, if you do think you will be charging into terrain then have an Archon along for the ride with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher. Gives the whole unit both assault and defensive grenades, which means reducing the pain if you get charged and keeping your I when you charge.

Godreas wrote:

I easily smash ladyboy face.

lonephoenix wrote:

I won't say that it's silly (to me), but I think if we're sitting near our backfield trying to snipe off marine tanks and otherwise, we're begging to get tabled. We're trying to shoot Lances that are about as consistent as my work ethic into things with 11+ Front armor, and really just hoping for the best. Also, We're sacrificing precious turns keeping them at range, where we simply can't kill them. SM flat out has better range, and better equipment than us. They have 48" Lascannons, Typhoons, and so forth that all outrange Dark Lances. Why we would ever try to avoid combat with them, I can't personally swallow. Nightshields are inferior in my eyes, because if I can shoot them, They can STILL shoot me back. The goal with getting into CC as quickly as possible is to minimize the "Shoot me back" part.

When you are playing a refused flank strategy you do not sit in the backfield sniping all game. You usually move 12" every turn. The first turn to within 36" You advance up the flank turn it with overwhelming force and roll up his line.

If you go 2nd full reserve or squash your skimmers into a 12" by 12" corner if there's cover and your enemy has spread out. If you go first you redploy to your preferred flank turn 1.

By mastering this strategy you will be attacking with your entire army vs your opponents few units that have range + LOS. NS really work a treat here making you immune to melta, plasma, bolters, ass cannon, the list goes on. With a handy blocking raider or venom or a disruption unit ie beast masters hiding in the midfield razors can be their own biggest problem.

Playing aggressively is an honourable trait but with only 3 scoring units of wyches. Id be careful of what i charged them at in 2/3 games even if i was trying to table my opponent.

This is not the only effective way to play DE but they are suited to it, being very fast, shooty with some CC specialists.

Oh and incubi rule!

So today I grabbed some Incubi, and I'll be implementing them into my army.

I'm getting the impression that going for tabling the opponent isn't really a viable tactic with this type of army. Perhaps I could consider it if I was going for a more shooty army. Right now, I'm in the process of rebuilding it with a WWP, in order to get more hurt in the front as quickly as possible. I know this isn't an ork army, and I don't really want to play it as such, but I like being in the thick of close combat, and I feel that wyches serve a role of getting the CC started, and sucking up damage, but I guess I need units like Incubi and Harlequins to really dish out the hurt. Is this a decent train of thought?

Pain, I'll give your tactica a spin sometime soon, because that's generally how I try to play, however I find I need to bait my opponents to split their forces, or they'll just meet me on the flank full force, while they dump several 48 inch weapons into my Raiders/Ravagers. I've considered doing full reserve in order to preserve myself, but I haven't done it to good effect yet.

If you're playing an aggressive assault force then I will note that the Scourges are a fairly unoptimal option for the army. Also, the Hexrifles and the Shardnets. Frankly I can see a couple of things I'd alter if the goal is to be an 'in your face' DE army.

Also, random thought - you appear to not be using 17 points (presuming this is a 1500 list) I'm going to suggest that there are things you can get for 17 points that will be helpful.

Your core strategy is fine - I rather support Raneth's opinions in this thread thus far. DE *can* be aggressive and they can assault and get into the opponent's grill and can do so quite functionally.

I do not think Incubi are a needed solution - though if you've bought them they are certainly a functional tool, but Wyches can do the job fine themselves.

The initial issue I see is one of army composition - you have only 9 lances in the entire army. If your opponent is playing reserve shenanigans then he is deploying back from the line and you're not likely able to bring your Blasters to bear successfully. 9 lances isn't killing much. A Ravager would serve you better than those Scourges - straight up. You'd gain another vehicle threat, you'd gain 3 lances to slap into something on Turn 1 (better than 2 HWBs I'll suggest) and you'll save points in doing so. You want to be able to open up stuff to allow your Wyches to assault it.

Another army composition point - you're fielding Shardnets on your Wyches - are your Wyches there to tarpit stuff or to eat face? I'd drop the Shardnet and bring +1 Wych in each squad and consider myself the better man for it. Frankly, for what you're doing 9x Wyches is a solid idea, and when you add a Wych weapon add one that causes damage - that's what those squads are supposed to be doing.

Your issue with Mephiston is engaging him in h2h combat - he is a threat to be shot because he is an unholy terror in assault. Poison is fine - blasters and lances work nicely on him as well, quite frankly. Just shoot the hell out of him asap.

Don't be afraid to throw multiple Wych squads at something - FNP MEQ are not easy to kill, but Agonisers will still gut 1-2 each turn, if you add another squad of Wyches that means 2-4 dead MEQ just from Aggies before a whole pile of regular Wych attacks also slam into them.

The Hexrifle...well, let me just ask you to describe to me how many things they've killed in all of your games with them...take your time. I'd advocate Liquifiers, natch, or even just running the Haem naked as their core purpose is to get FNP onto the Wyches (but an AP1 flamer is nice versus BA - just saying.

If the enemy is totally reserved don't be afraid to use a flat out move to pressure his board edge and give your transports a cover save. If you're going to be aggressive, be hyper aggressive. Your Raiders don't care if an enemy vehicle gets an angle on their rear armor, but it makes a massive difference for how good a lance is if it can do the same.

lonephoenix wrote:

Pain, I'll give your tactica a spin sometime soon, because that's generally how I try to play, however I find I need to bait my opponents to split their forces, or they'll just meet me on the flank full force, while they dump several 48 inch weapons into my Raiders/Ravagers. I've considered doing full reserve in order to preserve myself, but I haven't done it to good effect yet.

Agree 100% about using bait. I use a BM unit. They run up the centre of the table taking advantage of cover where possible. They draw ridiculous amounts of fire, reduce you opponents ability to move freely, are fast and have a good chance against vehicles and infantry. Your enemy must deal with them or you will punish him.

I also run an expendable raider for move blocking and ramming purposes. This is at 1750 tho i don't know how it would go at 1500. NS are not a must have but they help noticeably and its fun to use them as our opponents hate them!

Thor665 wrote:

If you're playing an aggressive assault force then I will note that the Scourges are a fairly unoptimal option for the army. Also, the Hexrifles and the Shardnets. Frankly I can see a couple of things I'd alter if the goal is to be an 'in your face' DE army.

Your core strategy is fine - I rather support Raneth's opinions in this thread thus far. DE *can* be aggressive and they can assault and get into the opponent's grill and can do so quite functionally.

I do not think Incubi are a needed solution - though if you've bought them they are certainly a functional tool, but Wyches can do the job fine themselves.

The initial issue I see is one of army composition - you have only 9 lances in the entire army. If your opponent is playing reserve shenanigans then he is deploying back from the line and you're not likely able to bring your Blasters to bear successfully. 9 lances isn't killing much. A Ravager would serve you better than those Scourges - straight up. You'd gain another vehicle threat, you'd gain 3 lances to slap into something on Turn 1 (better than 2 HWBs I'll suggest) and you'll save points in doing so. You want to be able to open up stuff to allow your Wyches to assault it.

Another army composition point - you're fielding Shardnets on your Wyches - are your Wyches there to tarpit stuff or to eat face? I'd drop the Shardnet and bring +1 Wych in each squad and consider myself the better man for it. Frankly, for what you're doing 9x Wyches is a solid idea, and when you add a Wych weapon add one that causes damage - that's what those squads are supposed to be doing.

Your issue with Mephiston is engaging him in h2h combat - he is a threat to be shot because he is an unholy terror in assault. Poison is fine - blasters and lances work nicely on him as well, quite frankly. Just shoot the hell out of him asap.

Don't be afraid to throw multiple Wych squads at something - FNP MEQ are not easy to kill, but Agonisers will still gut 1-2 each turn, if you add another squad of Wyches that means 2-4 dead MEQ just from Aggies before a whole pile of regular Wych attacks also slam into them.

If the enemy is totally reserved don't be afraid to use a flat out move to pressure his board edge and give your transports a cover save. If you're going to be aggressive, be hyper aggressive. Your Raiders don't care if an enemy vehicle gets an angle on their rear armor, but it makes a massive difference for how good a lance is if it can do the same.

I'm going to begin by stating the help here has been fantastic. I didn't think I choose the wrong army, and frankly, I don't care for playing SM. I'd be playing DE or Eldar, and I realize both of these are finesse armies, and become direly important to never make mistakes with, especially when you're assaulting with them.

Scourges are taken in my army as a way to distract the opponent, and lock down a Land raider, as well as dealing with the fact that I simply don't have another Ravager to use. I've considered using a Razorwing (No one in the area actually has a Ravager for sale...) as I think it would help my army soften up several of these marines without putting them at risk to be shot to death like my Ravagers experience. (This is one case where I can ABSOLUTELY justify Night shields. 48 inches on the Missiles let me soften up infantry after the Ravagers/Raiders/Blasterborn open the transports. Can you drop templates on targets engaged in CC?)

Regarding the missing points: I don't exactly know how that happened. This list was modified on the fly. Also, it was built to handle a Planetfall. Hexrifles were taken solely as reasons to keep his Meph away from me. (The threat of an instant kill wasn't too scary to him... Surprise!) Also, I rarely ever do anything with my Haemons besides donate a pain token to the wyches when they leave the Raider. I don't drop the Haemon with them since he doesn't have fleet, and I don't want him to slow the wyches down.

Flat-out on a Raider doesn't instant kill the people riding in the transport? The people I played against before told me it did. (I lost a WWP carrier that way...) What I see on the RAW p.71 says to me it's just wrecked, making it an instant dismount, which isn't a big deal to me. Even if it were to explode in mid-air from a flat-out move, I don't see what would instant kill the people inside. Am I correct in my interpretation?

Often, I'll be dealing with a Land Raider, two or more Razorbacks, and two or more Rhinos. There's occasionally a Stormraven that comes into play. Typically, I wouldn't say I have much reserve silliness happening, although I've considered doing it myself. Most of the issue comes from handling the Lascannon and Typhoon spam. Also, each squad of the marines has at least one melta, so everything is a threat to my paper planes. (Although, I realized that I played "Open-topped" incorrectly, by saying my opponent only rolls against my AV - 1. I am being told this isn't right. And the open-topped section seems to agree.)

My 9 lances rarely do much, and my blasters seem much more effective by sheer force multiplication. If I shake or stun a razorback or two, I'm doing really well. My options for shooting against people, typically has me choosing between being within 48 inches, and being within 20 inches of my targets due to terrain. Rather than wasting Lances on a "not in range" I will opt for a more close ranged encounter. That said, would the Razorwing ultimately serve me better than another Ravager? I think their AI abilities on top of their AT would be very useful, especially with the range of the missiles.

I typically arm my wyches with Haywires, a weapon and a Hekagonizer, and Raider with Flickers. For 1500, I'm looking at around 218 per Troop choice. Naturally, this is when I'm opting to go Mechanized over WWP. I don't know if WWP is really something I should be considering for such an "in your face" army. I feel like it sounds great in theory, but if you don't get the WWP into their back field, and you don't force them into one quarter of the table, you're begging to be shot to death. Granted, this would open the chance to use Bloodbrides in my current list, (6 Brides with shardnets, escorting an Archon) and Incubi, as well as a Blasterborn. This will net me 4 groups of 8 wyches, 2 Ravagers, and 2 Haemons. However, I'm not sold on this being an effective list on the whole.

I'm going to attempt to hunt SCs without Eternal warrior by tar-pitting, then throwing Incubi at them. Meph isn't Eternal, so one PW hit will wipe him off the board. With 4 Incubi and an Archon with the the Huskblade/Soultrap, I think I have a massive opportunity to tear into units with assault there. However, I'm equally considering going with a Succ as a 5 attack Agonizer killing machine for very little points. While I'll be robbing a wych squad of a Pain token, if the Succ is travelling with them, and I don't give them the time of day to shoot at her, that will make that squad an anti-Meph killing machine.

Hmm the list looks ok to me, so not being harsh.... it is a combo of you as a general (hey it is a tough game to pick up well, and this can be fixed) and a mix of terrain and game types that you are playing that is to your opponents benefit and your detriment.

Mostly I think you need to pick up a few 40k skills (movement, and target priority. These are the hardest skills to learn as there is no set rule to work with, but are the key factors IMO to winning games, a quick google for 40k tips will bring up lots of valuable articles, invest an hour in to it) but there are a few issues that are deffo working against you.

Now I never advocate tailoring terrain. You don't learn by doing such and it is a con to win that way.

BUT, if there is absolutely no LOS blocking terrain, then you simply can never hide your units and a 4+ cover save 5++ FF save will only get you so far.....

No you shouldn't fill the table with terrain and LOS blockers, but 1 piece of LOS blocking terrain every now and again would be a welcome boon to you! Hint, you hide as much as you can on the way in behind it ;P

Next... Planetfall..... not sure if this is one of the battle missions, planet strike or something else.... but if it is planet strike...... well the one main drawback of a DOA list just got removed as they can assault the turn they DS if I remember correctly. So I would question why you are playing that rule set..... as it buffs his DSers massively and gives you.......... nothing (unless u want to assault with scourges, and you DON'T want to do that).

I've started with those as they are the minor issues...... you should consider them, but they aren't the main problem. Sometimes you'll have no LOS blocking terrain (get used to it) and you may play planet strike so even with those draw backs, you still do have a good chance, but I suspect if I ask the question 'Who suggested planet strike' the answer will be..... well that BA player.......... Not cheating, but deffo a disadvantage to you!

So your list, what you can do with it, and other options.

Well incubi have been covered, you now have some so try em out and see what you think, but focusing on what you already have.......

Hexrifles. I'm no big fan unless u can be allocating the wounds. Might be more useful come 6th ED but that won't help you now. Liquifier guns on the other hand..... are tried and tested. 1/2 of the time they will negate power armour. 1/3 of the time, they'll negate FnP as well! Everyone and their dog take LGs on Haemies for good reason...... they are poss THE best Haemie upgrade. I would strongly recommend taking some. Venom blades work well with them, because they are cheap, and force wounds through. Not required, but a good way to spend the points. I'll cover haemies in assaults later.

Your troops all look pretty good to me, and I run similar builds, altho often take PWs to save points but agos.... well you rarely wish you hadn't taken them. Shardnets.... personally I am a big fan..... no they don't increase your damage output, but I'm not sure in the big picture that the others really do make that much difference..... not until you hit 5-6 extra attacks......... half of which (or wyche if you like) will hit....... and 1/3 of those hits on average will wound.......... yes they are good, and this has been debated to death already elsewhere, but those nets (assuming u charge, and who would ever charge wyches? they'll just shoot them [well Mephisto, we'll come to that scum bag soon]) can always be put on to a sarge, IC, etc..... reduce an attack, which will prob be a power weapon that will negate FnP that can save wyches massively. Personally, I am a big SN fan!

Your Raiders. For my wyches.... TBH I put night fields on them. I am always TB them T1, and T2, if alive they drop their cargo and their primary job is done. With this in mind, they will always have a 4+ cover save T1, better than a 5++. Heavy weapons will almost always be able to hit them, as most imperial heavy weapons of note are 48" range, but you have your 4+ for that. The NF just makes it that much easier to avoid melta and bolters..... which can quite easily drop a raider. Stick out to 19" from a squad, and they can't bolter you down, full stop. This adds some resilience to your troops, as they can’t use bolters on the paper planes.

That is my preference and why, but FF is a decent option too.... Just how I run my assault raiders.

Blaster born. Tried, tested and the staple elite of many lists. Personally I do not run them, I pack in more warriors in venoms, with a singer blaster. No not as effective at anti tank, but cheaper, scoring and frees up elites (and = more venoms). You can get 2.7 warrior versions for your blaster borns....... you need about 30 more points to take 3 instead. I'd stick with what you have, but you can make savings there if you need to (even by dropping 1 blasterborn per unit).

Ravengers, staple DE heavy, good choice.

Scourges with haywire blasters..... This is exactly what I'm building as an addition to my list, and suspect they should aid suppression really well. So personally I would keep em, but till mine hit the table, I don't have any XP to draw on. You do only need to suppress a shooting vehicle, destroyed is great, but not a requirement. If you can stun or immobilise, then those HWG will deal with them, via auto hit....... so I would expect great things from the scourges..... just make sure you cover all the hatches to force dangerous terrain roles on the contents when u pop the razorback, or try to completely wipe the unit by not letting them disembark at all (this can be very dangerous for wyches, but does work).

So some minor changes could be made to improve the basic list, but tbh, not much (the hexrifles basically, maybe the haemies if you really feel the FnP is worthless).

You are quite right that AP2, ST6 and power weapons are ruining FnP for you, but you shouldn't be facing all that much IMO........ typhoons..... 2 FnP ignoring wounds max if they shoot krak. St 9, how many lascannons can they really bring????? Yes they can pack a lot, but not with a HQ beast and good cc ability across the board as well.... you should be getting a smattering of that sort of fire power a turn, and be losing a couple of models, not entire units....... and if they are rinsing units with that sort of shooting, your ravengers and raiders should be avoiding that firepower......

That said, if I’m wrong, and FnP is simply not working, then the haemies are pointless wastes of space that aren’t doing anything, so do yourself a favour and swop them out for something that does (like a cheap priest killing succubus as below). I suspect that if you try haemies in raiders with LGs you will want to keep them. They do have one other excellent advantage, and that is soaking up ST6-7 fire power. Getting hit by assault cannons or autocannons?.... stick a wound on the haemie. They will still have FnP and saves u an autokill wound on a wyche (that is at the cost of fleet, so bare that in mind) but I find my hamies often stay with the wyches, and bring quite a bit to that unit, with wound shenanigans, and also being an IC in assaults, means they have to separate out attacks to try and hit him (separate attacks, not wounds, so they can’t guarantee a kill unless they put in serious attacks)...... removing attacks against the wyches. Often power weapon attacks so that they can kill the heamie.... bad for the haemie, but he’s done his job, and saves wyches. Often a cost worth paying IMO.

If your opponent is spreading out, this should make it easier for you to isolate units and take them down. Do not play fair. This is so important I will say it again. Do not play fair, gang up as many units as you need to or can manage and ensure in that local area, you dominate. Then move on. Tarpiting works best if you can contain units till you are ready to deal with them, not contain them all game. By all means tie up mephisto or an assault squad with wyches till you clear out another threat, but then throw in your counter assault and be the one swinging that assault your way. Remember that if you assault in to a combat that is ongoing from last turn, they can’t even target you.... and nades make no difference, so that could be a good use of incubi with out an archon. Give them a FF raider, move them up 12” T1 to shoot the raider DL, assault with wyches T2, and then pile on with your incubi T3, when nothing gets to target them full stop.

I do think your strategy is about right... go for the throat, not objectives, but just the implementation needs a few tweaks.

So some threats you are dealing with and counters.

Marines, and FnP. Kill the priests!!!!! Take them out in CC, and watch as they start dropping like regular marines. As IC, CC is your best bet, and your hekatrix should be in base to base and ‘should’ kill him before they even swing back. Any form of ini buff to remove him first before the rest of the squad hits will help, but you’d need a cheap succubus to do that.... or an archon (the idea here is to kill the priest before the wyches hit, so ini 7+ is needed or all ur hits will still be affected by FnP). Maybe consider that as an option. Cheap succubus with agoniser just to clean up the priests will increase your killing power massively at a bargain price. Otherwise ensure your hekatrix is in b2b with the priest and take him down that way. Takes longer to take effect but a cheaper option (basically... KILL THOSE PRIESTS!!!)

Mephisto.... I want to say hide from him  but sooner or later you are gonna have to tackle him. Shooting, lots and lots of shooting is a good start. Or you have to tarpit, but eventually, even then you have to take him on. Again I would rate the Shard net here, and maybe even swop out some wyches for blood brides. Drop the HWG and 1 wyche and it won’t even cost you anymore 6, ago, 2 shardnets, and suck out some of his attacks. Then jump him next turn, when he can’t target the unit that piles in, incubi might be good here, but still a bit risky. Or if u keep a haemie in that unit..... then he will have to start separating attacks if he wants to kill the haemie and the unit...... with 2 less attacks from SNs....... that will certainly help nullify him a bit, but the FnP wont help much v him anyway so again I’d save points for killers in this instance.

Last but not least.... embrace the dissie. Disintegrators drop your anti tank considerably.... but they do bring some excellent marine killing, FnP ignoring firepower that you currently lack. Now I was very hesitant to add them, really not wanting to ‘give up’ dark lance shots for it, but the games I’ve tried em out, they have been effective. If ur gonna play BA lists, dissies will give u a real boost in removing marines from the table. Just hit and wound and go straight to removing casualties. No armour saves and none of this FnP business (cover will still be a pain of course) Best way of adding a hideous amount of AI fire power is razor wings. Dropping the lances of a RW isn’t such a burden as everything else is so AI based anyway, and they can still add shots in to light vehicles (although even rhino chassis become hard to kill with them). RW, dissies, splinter cannon, 4 stock missiles and a FF. You can just swop out the lances on a ravenger to accomplish the same, but till u have ur AT sorted and working, I would resist this for now........ but swopping some raider lances to dissies is a half way option that might help.....

Hell, if he’s robbing you of your FnP, it is only fair to return the favour ;P

Fatuous wrote:

...
A huge wall of INCREDIBLY informative text that I did actually read through, and will address points that arise in context of my reply instead of the big wall. Love you long time.
...

First off, I am new, and I'm playing a glass hammer army against one of the most hardy 3+ armor save armies in the game. I'm absolutely blaming my losses on being new and unsure of what to do. I take absolutely zero offense, and I appreciate EVERYTHING that you said in the paragraphs that follow. I want to offer a good game to my BA opponent, and not conceding on Turn 3 because I simply can't do anything else.

Terrain is usually a major issue. Most of the terrain we have is "see through," like ruins. This is great for small models, and horrible for my paper planes. Planetfall is a planetstrike mission. I'm playing mostly this same BA player for at least 5 more games in the league we have. Most of our missions are chosen via Battle Mission books, or in this case, Planetstrike. I don't have much choice in the matter. I do know my next mission will be Vanguard for SM in the Battle Missions book.

I used Hexrifles solely as an experiment in this Plantfall mission. I won't be using them ever again. Liq. guns are pretty awesome, but right now, I'm more considering the option of losing my Haemons on the whole. If I don't have my wyches in CC, I'm kind of doing it wrong. FNP hasn't served me well at all. If my wyches are being shot, it's by things that don't grant me FNP. He can usually down my Ravagers by T2/T3. There are at least 5 Lascannons, and 1-2 autocannons firing at me from the start. (2-3 Razorbacks, all of them are twinlinked, a Land Raider, a Stormraven, and a pair of dreads.) He usually won't reserve, so he's firing on me from T1. Usually it's 1-3 Raiders/Venoms gone by the end of T1, and 3-5 by T2.

The Lascannons really cause damage early on. Ravagers are usually toast by T3, and they at best shake a target or two. My Raiders often won't do anything, since they lack aerial assault, I don't get to fire them. Of course, this is assuming they still have a weapon after they drop off their payloads. If I could fire my Raiders after moving 12 inches, I might be able to do more with them.

Most of the wyches that die before CC are killed with Melta. He doesn't bother using melta on my Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms because he tends to wipe them out with Lascannon fire. So he's pretty much down to wasting them with units, then he'll typically charge them from there. I'm getting charged maybe 1 in 5-6 assaults. This usually happens when they wipe out a unit. I'm RARELY shot with anything that gives FNP, because if I'm getting hit in a case where FNP might matter, I'm getting Dodge. Also, I lose many wyches to popping tanks. This is partially because they're using FNP. I won't be using them to pop tanks as much henceforth, so I might be able to save them that issue.

And once I get some free time I'll edit this to cover more points.

Although my big question is still this:

If I cut some Raiders, and go WWP, am I going to help myself, or hurt myself in matches like this?

If a Raider (or any other transport for that matter) is destroyed while moving flat out, the passegers are NOT instantly destroyed. The confusion comes from the fact that the unit inside the transport can't move the turn it goes flat out, and that if the unit cannot move out of the wrecked transport it is destroyed. Furthermore, there's a part in the FAQ where it is mentioned that if a transport explodes the turn it moved flat out, the passagers are killed.

HOWEVER: when the rulebook talks about "turns", unless specifically stated othervise, it means player turns (ie. one player's movement, shooting and assault), not game turns (ie. a pair of player turns) (this is also clarified in the FAQ). A unit may not move the same player turn its transport moves flat out, but it can move out of a destryed transport in the opponent's turn (since that is a new player turn). However, if your transport moves flat out and is destroyed on your own turn, eighter from flying into terrain or ramming an enemy, then the unit inside is indeed killed.

The FAQ about units killed when their transport explodes in the (player) turn it flat outs is what confuses a lot of people, but it's there just to stop the tactic of using your transports as missiles by ramming the enemy and hoping you got the exploded result, allowing you to place the unit in the crater where the vehicle was and assault the enemy.

As you were posting while I was writing my last post... ur last few questions:

In the current versions of the game, eldar are prob even harder to use than DE, so stick with what you have.

There seems to be an over all idea that you can reduce the fire power coming your way to nil.... I'm not really sure this is all that possible, or even desirable. NF have their place, but usually, with glass cannon armies (like DE, vet guard air cav, etc...) you get your defense not from avoiding the fight. completely You get your defence by so seriously damaging what you hit that they simply can not fight back effectively...... and when you get hit back, accept your probably going to lose a unit. At that point, it doesn't matter so much as little is left to fight back.

Ravengers are the favourite heavy DE have, but the razor wing is also excellent, but works in a different way. You have to have anti tank covered one way or another, and ravengers are just a very cheap way of doing that. A razor wing would make an excellent addition, see my post above. Dissies for killing marines are awesome, but the lance version is also good. I dislike chosing not not take a DL when I can, but the dissies also gell better with the general AI role of the RW so a good place to take both if you have AA covered in other areas.

For now, I would avoid WWP. They work but do take more thought in their use, so I would focus on what you already have and getting the most out of it first before considering such a drastic change to the list theme. Or maybe just add one, and a few units that can do well coming out of it, but personally, I would resist this for now and keep focus on raiders, venom and ravenger and gain more XP with that style of list.

Scourges with HWblasters should work well, but you are wasting them on land raiders IMO. Odds are you get a glancing hit... you might stop them moving or shooting.... but when I field a LR, I always take extra armour, so would still be shooting and also have machine spirit so ur not stopping me shooting either. Yeah some times you'd manage to immobilise or what ever.... but odds are high you'll stun or shake, and LRs just don't care about that. On a RB or rhino, that is more useful (sounds the wrong way round I know) as that will stop them moving and shooting (few people pay for EX on RBs and rhinos) and if stunned, no shooting from the top hatch etiher They use dark light for the LR, where you have better odds at an actual penetrating hit (prime target for a ravenger).

Also hit GW website and download the latest DE and 40K rules book FAQ. If you are ramming with raiders with guys on board, you won't be by the time you read the FAQ to the core rules book. If it dies while moving in your turn, every one on board is killed out right. DE players are to blame for adding ether sails and going for T1 rams, blowing them selves up then assualting. Was a neat tactic for a while, but dirty and broken and this is how they stopped us doing it

Yeah open topped adds +1 to the damage roll and mixed with AP1 is lethal to our boats....... But again, little reason to be in melta range........ unless you just dumped a CC unit which they should then be focusing on......

It sounds to me that while you have 9 lances, that isn't actually the real story........ we need to change our focus a bit and talk about useful lances........

From your list above, you have 3 lances on raiders. Great. Raiders are good, and lances are awesome. Except what do you do T1? TB all those raiders to gain a cover save, advance on the enemy and generally be getting ur wyches in position for T2 assualts, etc......

That is exactly what those raiders should be doing, but of course, that whittles your affective DLs down significantly.

That leaves you with a still pretty decent 6 lances..... but again, that is not the true picture... you have 2. 2 lances, with 3 shots each. You can not split fire, all of those lances target the same unit. That gives you huge stopping power at those 2 targets, but is only 2 targets and you really do need to surpress more than that in a shooting phase.

Even if you don't use your raiders getting in to position, that is still only shots on 5 targets max, and 3 of them are 1 shot so unreliable.

I found in my first games I had similar problems..... I have raiders for my wyches and a cheap extra anti tank shot, but in fact, I never got to use it, as simply didn't have enough lance fire, and that one never got used T1 anyway.

But that is ok, you can work around it, but you do have to do something in order to handle mech.

Scourges here deffo help, and the HWBlasters keep them at a decent range too. But as above, they shouldn't target LRs........... they just won't do enough.... they should be hitting RBs, and in 1 go, should stop them shooting simply by pushing a glancing hit thru.

That opens up a few options really. Change your list to add more effective lance fire power, or use your list differently.

You could:

Keep some wyches back early so you can fire the lance (works with your list, but reduces the effectiveness of hte wyches).
Replace those wyches with something else that doesnt need to be jumping forward so quickly (wracks, or warriors for ...... more lance/blasters).
Add small reaver units with blasters to increase your fire power.

That leads us nicely on to blasters, and in your case blaster born.

How many targets can they surpress on T1. Zero. Ok, ok, not zero, in theory you can certainly still target 2 units and tbh, you will likely kill them. That's pretty good huh? Well unfortunatley no, it isn't good enough and this I also learnt in my first game or 2........ T1 surpression is vtail to ensure we have a T2. Blasters, in transports actually should be getting in to position on T1, just like wyches unless they have specific targets of oppertunity (predators, etc....) but those targets do not include transports, so no good v rhinos, RBs or LRs.

If you want to shoot from the top, you can only move combat speed. Coupled with the range of a blasters, you will have to move faster than that to be in range, so you have to get out the transport to be in range, unless some one was nice enough to move forwards T1 in to your range, and that has yet to happen to me

So your only choice to make use of them T1 is if you get out........ at which point, the contents of what ever transport you just killed (and you almost certainly will destroy it with 4 blasters, if you don't tbh the same thing happens) wipe out your unit in retaliation. In your list this significantly reduces your T2+ anti tank fire aswell.

As DE we simply cannot afford to swop units like this. Imperial Guard we are not!

Throw this all together and you end up with the problem you are currently facing........ serious problems in dealing with armour, so you can't get at the squeeshy stuff inside.

Here is a little math on lance weapons vs AV12+ and rough stats:

For every 3 shots, 2 will hit.
For every 2 hits, 1 will at least glance. Or to put it anohter way, for every 2 hits, 1 won't do anything.

Using these guidelines, a ravenger can expect to get 1 roll on the damge chart per shooting phase. 1 roll, and that might only be a glancing hit! Of course, some times you will hit and pen with every dice, but conversly, some times you'll roll triple one to hit too.........

Vs rhino chassis, this does improve a little:

For every 3 shots 2 will hit.
For every 3 hits, 2 will get to roll on the damge chart, your odds of penetrating have gone up too.

Mech is very popular right now, and that is unlikely to change, so I think you need to seriously rethink your AT arrangements.

Finally, no you can not target units in CC with guns of any kinda. Counter assault them instead, it is very power ful!

I cannot rememebr Mephistos stats, but a sucubbus with electro wip might help......... but suspect an ago will be the best way to go.

TBH with hard core CC characters, I find focusing on bog standard troops and take them out with combat resolution tends to work well, or just shoot them.......... but he is very tough, so don't feel bad if he is killing large amounts, it is just what he does.

The walls above are massive, and I'm lazy by nature - I'm going to just point out a few quick things;

1. Haywire Blasters and Scourges aren't great versus Land Raiders (Lances and Blasters are) Haywire Blasters are great vs. AV 12 units.

2. As noted, flat out won't auto kill passengers (unless the vehicle wrecks on *your* turn when you move flat out...so be careful of ramming and moving into/out of terrain)

3. Power weapons don't auto kill non-EW characters. You need Str that is double the toughness of the character to insta kill them. Power weapons ignore armor saves and prevent FNP being used - that is all they do (and is quite enough, normally .

4. Razorwings might help you, but theoretically Wyches are your anti-infantry, yeah? Just remember that there is a balance to an army - you need to be able to kill MEQ and Mech to beat a BA list.

5. WWP might help you, but frankly I would call it a more difficult to master army list than your current Raider Rush list. I would avoid thinking of it as a perfect solution, all it serves as is an alternate delivery method.

6. If you're having issues killing his vehicles that probabaly explains why you're being assault and not doing the assaulting with your Wyches - is that correct? Wyches are much better on the assault than receiving, and you want to be able to pick your fights. If you aren't doing that in a game then that's a serious situation to figure out how to fix because it will help you win more.

Glad not to have caused offense, and fingers crossed some of it is useful I am pretty bad at getting carried away and writting reems and reems so trying to be more compact (failing obviously)........

Good to see you appreciate you have a trciky army, vs a very tough one. No disrespect to marines, but they are forgiving lists, that are easier to play. With out full LOS blocking terrain, you can't hide your boats, but you can work around that.

The extra info on what your facing is also very useful.

Rifle man dreads (2 twin linked AC dreads) are evil (I have a dread heavy marine force, so can attest to how good they are). These should be your number one priority for T1 surpression, 1 lascannon from a razor back (even times by 5), has to hit, and then you should get a save 4 or 5+ save. You can handle that much better than 4 twinlinked AC shots!!!!!! Those dreads have to go ASAP so paint your biggest target on them.

Ths is kinda what I mean about learning target priority.... compared to a land raider or something with troops in, these might seem lower in your target priority. Trust me, they really are not!

Last few points:

1 skimmers (raiders and venoms) can move 12, and can still fire. I won't bore you with the full rules on that, but it is only people shooting from them that cannot fire if they move more than 6", so you can move a raider 12" and disembark wyches AND shoot the dark lance on the front.

I would suggest for now, stick with what you have and what you know, and learn the rules for them, and play test them. It is tempting to completely rewrite a list due to poor performance but a few tweaks, or just chaning how you play can make a bigger difference. So yes, think WWP, but no, I wouldn't actually go that direction just yet...........

I honestly believe tyour problems are mostly based around not surpressing his shooting units (tanks) T1, so then they shoot you to bits, and T2, you simply do not have enough stuff left to deal out the damage, at that point, you cannot silence those shooting vehicles and it goes down hill fast.

You need to:

From T1, be silencing as much return fire as you can, while advancing to set up your charges on T2.
His T1, he will then have alot less to shoot you with, and more of your own units surivive to then.......
T2, re supress his tanks again and launch your assualts.

The key here tho is to surpress, not nessasarily destroy his tanks and walkers. If destoryed great, but if not, as long as they are no longer shooting, move on and stop another dread, razor back or what ever from shooting you... You only need to scupper his T1 shooting and damage 1-2 tanks to put you in the lead on this, next turn, he can't shoot back, so T2, you do it again, but with more concentrated fire on his reduced numbers.

Of course in practice, it is harder than that, but in a nut shell, that should give you the upped hand.

As above your current list doesn't allow you to do that with enough ranges fire power, as it either is TB, and can't fire, or is out of range, unless you get out. Neither is good enough.

Ok, getting out of control again, but as an example to what I mean, here is my initial 500 point list, and it's converted format, after a few games, where I had exactly the same problem.

Haemi, LG
7 Wyches, hekatrix, power weapon, shardnet, raider, NF.
5 Wracks, venom, splinter cannon.
5 Warriors, blaster, venom, splinter cannon.
I think I had 15 points left. I tried a Leader with venom blade on the warriors once,, blast pistol on the wyches and HWG on the wyches once. HWG were far superior IMO.

I noticed after a few games, I had no T1 lance fire to handle transports and that made my life much harder. the wyches lance was always TB, and the warriors simply were out of range, unless I disembarked.

Few changes later.

Haemi, LG
7 Wyches, hekatrix, power weapon, shardnet, HWG, raider, NF.
5 Wracks, Raider, FF.
5 Warriors, blaster, venom, splinter cannon.

Not huge changes at first glance..... but the wracks raider freed up my wyches to go about their business..... while taking over T1 surpression, with a FF so they could shoot and still have some form of protection (not much, but some). After T1 the warriors are in range to use their blaster (T1, they can either TB in to a good position, or move 12" and fire their SCs), and the wyches can handle tanks still with the nades, with a bit more protection from explosions due to FnP. Minor changes made sure that every unit I have can handle inf and vehicles and didn't cost me any more points.

Are there any similar ideas you could try, in either list design, or implementation that might give similar improvements.

Doh, written another essay, so gonna stop now

Quote :

Mephisto.... I want to say hide from him  but sooner or later you are gonna have to tackle him. Shooting, lots and lots of shooting is a good start. Or you have to tarpit, but eventually, even then you have to take him on. Again I would rate the Shard net here, and maybe even swop out some wyches for blood brides. Drop the HWG and 1 wyche and it won’t even cost you anymore 6, ago, 2 shardnets, and suck out some of his attacks. Then jump him next turn, when he can’t target the unit that piles in, incubi might be good here, but still a bit risky. Or if u keep a haemie in that unit..... then he will have to start separating attacks if he wants to kill the haemie and the unit...... with 2 less attacks from SNs....... that will certainly help nullify him a bit, but the FnP wont help much v him anyway so again I’d save points for killers in this instance.

Marines are Marines, but Mephiston is an issue all by himself. It's so important to contain him that I can't let the above answer stand.

Meph moves as if he had a jump pack. That means he's free to decide where and when to cause mayhem, and this is the first issue to be remedied. As said before, he's easy to hide, so don't count on getting many shots in.

So, engage him in combat asap. BUT DON'T DO IT WITH ANYTHING BUT BASIC WYCHES! Incubi, for all their awesome, will be chopped apart by Meph in short order. You need three things: speed, Ward Saves, Agoniser. Keep it simple.

I don't think I've ran into too much trouble with Blood Angels. The reason why is because I play a pretty lance heavy, Wych heavy army with lots of Agonizers and CC potential. A lot of trouble from BA lies in a larger amount of Venoms whereas Venoms excel vs. Long Fang spammers. It's quite a double-edged sword if you happen to play competitively because DE can tailor so hard to fighting a specific playstyle and fall apart just as easily vs. a larger spectrum meta.

To pick up on the point of terrain. The rulebook itself recommends using at least 6 or 7 pieces of roughly 12"x12" terrain as a decent amount for a standard 6'x4' board. The recommendation is that you cover roughly 25% of the board with it, and this terrain should be a mix of LOS interfering which provides cover, cover which doesn't block LOS, and cover which completely blocks LOS. If you're playing on boards that they can see clear across to the maximum range of their weapons, whatever direction they point them in, wherever they are, that's not fair on you. If the boards aren't set up with terrain by those running the battles, grab some more, and throw the rulebook in the face of protestors. If they are, you've got a right to feel hard done to in my book. It's great for them to sit in the minimal cover outranging us, and given the choice they'll do this most of the time, knowing we have to move to get most stuff in range. It's a shame, but most people would prefer to win rather than have fun.

I'm going to reply to this as best as I can in as structured a form as possible:

First: Thank you for the clarification on the exploding skimmer information! That FAQ will get printed out next time I play, so I don't have to fear Flat out as much as I do. (Before reading the posts about it, I thought it was effectively a deathwish. That actually means I'll be using it now!)


Thor:
Thanks for the clarification on PWs.

Why would you say HWBlasters aren't as effective? They do run the chance of missing, making them a bit less effective as HWGrenades, but they are being shot at a 24 inch range, I feel that adds a wonderful bit of safety, especially since they snag the cover save as well if you can manage it.

I would ideally like to use the wyches as the Clean-up for a Razorwing, but they are my main AI. I thought it might soften targets up in order to ease wych take-downs. However, I am probably in more need for AT. (That said I love the model, might it be worth it if I like the model? I know it's only 2 DLs, but that can't be terrrible? The mobility might help it as bait as well....) (And since I'm posting this the day after I took care of buying a Razorwing, It's going to be implemented.)

My wyches tend to catch assaults if they do the transport exploding. Hopefully, what I will be doing to counter this, will be to be aggressive with my Ravagers, to get them into suppression range as soon as possible, and use the Razorwing as a giant bullet magnet for the rest of his stuff. If I only lose a Razorwing, and only have to trade 2 Dark lances for 6 of them to suppress two transports, hopefully popping them, then the Razorwing is paying for itself. Plus, add in FF/NS, and turbo-booster, I think they'll do okay. I'm going to play some psychologyhammer, and use the fact that the Razorwing is floating in the air, and is probably scary, to my advantage.

My priorities have generally never put Dreads high on the list. I think that's now effectively changed. Scourges will be dumped for the Razorwing, and I'll see what I can accomplish. Also, With the RWJF, I can effectively shoot tons of material at Meph. Potentially dropping many wounds on him right out the gate will do wonders for wych clean up in T2->T3.

Fatu:
I've read EVERYTHING you've posted pretty extensively, I can assure of this, However, since this post I'm writing is around a day old now, I'm going to go ahead and post it. I'll filter some more comments about your posts to that one.

I can see what you mean about the small changes in lists yielding major tactical changes. Hopefully, I'm going to shift away from a unit of Blasterborn, add a Raider of wyches, RWJF, remove Scourges, and maybe add some Incubi as a force multiplier for the wyches, and see what happens. I might try to use wyches to screen the Incubi as a shield, thus not REQUIRING them to have a PGL, but I might be tweaking on the whole to take an Archon with a PGL as well as a Succ. Do you think this would be an effective list as it stands? I am gunning for using the Ravagers/TB/RWJF as my AT, and I ramped up the CC effectiveness of the army by adding Incubi, not adding another load of wyches, but instead giving them a Succubus, and an Archon to dish out major CC pain. I'm feeling this list MUCH better overall, and I wonder if this fits closer to the mentality that I'm shooting toward. The Succubus rides with the Shardnet wyches, the Archon with the Incubi


1497 of 1500 points.
HQ:
Succubus + Agonizer (85)
Archon + PGL + SF + Ago + Drugs (145)

Troops (583):
7 Wyches
Hekagonizer
Shardnet
Raider w/FF

7 Wyches
Hekagonizer
Razorflails
HWGs
Raider w/FF
(Two of these troop choices.)

Elite (299):
3 Blasterborn
Venom w/ SC
146

4 Incubi
Venom w/SC
153

HS (385):
2 Ravagers w/FF
1 Razorwing w/FF

And to everyone, does this closer fit the mentality of the overall tactica I've got in mind, or do I concentrate too much into the HQ at this point, and lose too much AT? (I have 8 Lances, and 3 Blasters.) The two wyches with Razorflails keep the HWGs, so they can assault transports that don't get popped by the HS choices/Blasterborn.

I have a really hard time justifying the Succubus. The number of Wych squads taken into consideration, Haemies are almost mandatory!

Thor wrote:

If you're playing an aggressive assault force then I will note that the Scourges are a fairly unoptimal option for the army.

Really? I myself used to think RJBs were -strictly- superior, but as it turned out the Scourges' 4+ ASv proves to be a huge boon. After all, AP5 runs rampant throughout every Codex! It's true the Jetbikes are more versatile, but if you're going for straight AT there's no denying the Scourges do it cheaper and are more resilient to boot!