Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi

Greetings and welcome to Battle 8 of Old vs. New.

This battle is slightly odd because it's not *really* a legit matchup. Truth be told, this battle was more apropos to never happen and old Incubi left to the retinue battle that is yet to come. That said...it's ruddy Incubi vs. Incubi, and I'm pretty sure everyone will want to see that (I certainly do) especially considering my initial commentary about the old dex being superior when it comes to h2h battle

With the New Codex currently in the lead, albeit the competition being fairly neck and neck, let's see what happens when the old skull faced master melee artists face off with the gothic armor and helluva big blades of the new breed MEQ mulchers!

Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

Old Incubi used to be bought through the use of HQ retinues, but many wanted them to be a stand alone Elite option.
New Incubi are that stand alone Elite option.

The Old Incubi cost 25 points each - and you could get an Incubi Master for an additional 18.
The New Incubi are 22 points each, with a Klaivex for 15.

Now, in a meta sense I could point out that the Incubi are now in a Force Org slot that is highly competitive and hard to free up room for - but that said, being an Elite is better than being an add on to an HQ as far as getting them onto the field most of the time. Also, you cannot argue that, price wise, the new Incubi are nicely more affordable.

Advantage? - New!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

The Old Incubi

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
5	4	3	3	1	5	1	8	3+

The New Incubi

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
5	4	3	3	1	5	2	8	3+

And the upgrade characters;

The Old Incubi Master

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
5	4	3	3	1	6	2	9	3+

The New Incubi Klaivex

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
6	5	3	3	1	6	3	9	3+

Now, the attack characteristic actually is a wash despite appearances because the old Incubi had guns on their hats (I'll discuss that later in wargear), at that point the only real shifts are that the Old Incubi Mster had a lower WS and I than the Klaivex, which is a pretty big deal (especially with the Klaivex costing less). The New also has a better BS...but that's a bit of a wash since...well, only the old Incubi could shoot. So...bwuh?

In any case, stats are very slightly better on the New.

Advantage? - New!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with?

New

Regular new Incubi use the Klaive, a two-handed power weapon that grants +1 Str. That is it for their options, but it is a fine weapon.

The Klaivex brings out the options more than that though.
He can equip Demi-klaives for +2 A or +2 Str on any given round of combat.
He has the Bloodstone, a somewhat expensive but pretty solid anti-MEQ flamer.
He can also buy the Klaivex powers of Onslaught and Murderous Assault. MA is kinda 'meh' because usually IC hunting is not what Incubi should be doing, Onslaught is better but tends to require a lot of Incubi to have it be worthwhile.

They can also get a transport. And that's it.


Old

Old Incubi had a couple of options open to them - they all came with the Punisher (+1 Str, 2-hands to use...nowadays called a Klaivex for no discernible reason) but added onto it with the potency of the Tormenter Helm - a hat with a splinter pistol on it. Now only allowing them to shoot if they wished, but also giving them +1 A from an extra weapon. Yeah!

Also, unlike their new counterparts - you could give these guys grenades...yeah, just buy the unit grenades, y'know, instead of being obligated to get an Archon with a PGL attached to them you could give your elite assault unit one of the most basic tools of assault. Ruddy brilliant idea that went away for some reason...derp on you GW.

They could also opt to drop Punishers in order to take Shredders or Blasters though there were not many players who did this it did allow for more potent tank hunting options if desired.

The Incubi Master gets the usual paean of total win about the Armoury. So, drugs, Masks, grenade launchers that made enemy units flee in terror, all of that stuff.

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Old cost more, but clearly had better options available to them. You had shooting tools to actually use with the unit. An important consideration though is Old Incubi lacked fleet - meaning (on the plus side) it was quite functional of them to use their shooting tools but (on the negative) they lacked fleet - which is a pretty awesome power for an assault unit. On the other hand, the grenade issue is HUGE. WTF was GW thinking in not giving us the ability to have New Incubi intrinsically have grenades - functionally that's limiting the number of Haems you can have in your army because you need to buy an Archon to support the Incubi if you want to be able ot assault through cover and be any good at all, and if you want another special character...egads, it just gets messy and is one of the reasons I don't field Incubi very often anymore. They clog Force Orgs despite being an Elite choice now. Also, the Old Incubi unquestionably have superior selection when it comes to interesting and potent wargear.

Advantage? - Old!


Face to Face in Battle!

Ah, now for the exciting part - let's let these two monsters of war slam into each other and see who comes out on top. Now, to a certain degree I'm tempted to troll the New and declare that all assaults go through cover - but if I did that then Old would win every fight basically so...let's not do that.

Also, again, I'm not giving the Old Incubi the Archon/Dracon they would have followed because, again, it would unbalance the battle - let's just have Incubi on Incubi action. I'll avoid the shooting items and also avoid giving the new ones MA since it wouldn't help them at all.

9 Old Incbi - Incubi Master w. Combat Drugs, otherwise straight Punishers and T. Helms

10 New Incubi - Klaivex w. Onslaught and Demi-Klaives, otherwise straight Klaives

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Old Incubi Assault
Master takes 'strike First' and +1 WS

Incubi Master is 4 attacks on the Charge - 2.66 hits - 1.77 wound and kill.

Klaivex swings next and uses the +2 Attacks option on his Demi-Klaives (statistically the best option available to him, natch)
5 attacks - 3.33 hits - 2.22 wound and kill.

The Incubi swarms that remain (6 Old and 8 new most likely) both swing simultaneously.

Old Incubi - 18 attacks - 9 hit - 6 wound and kill.
New Incubi - 16 attacks - 8 hit - 5.33 wound and kill.

At this point odds are the New Incubi will use his Demi-Klaives for the win next round and the remains of his unit (1-3 Incubi) will be the "winners".

Not much point in doing the other side of the assault, basic logic suggests New will still win and likely get to have maybe around 4-5 survivors which will be nice for them.



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A bit of a shock for me that the New Incubi did that well. Still, I'm hesitent on this call because it was a staged event. New Incubi have the advantage of Fleet, which ought to give them the assault more. Old Incubi have easy grenades which...are just ruddy huge and were not represented in the above fight (where, if it involved cover, the Old Incubi would basically always be the winners as they could sit and shoot, force the charge, and get an easy win).

I'm going to wuss out on this one.

Advantage? - Tie!

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So that's my breakdown.

This is another tough decision for me (though I predict an aggressive win for New in the votes, personally). There are a lot of odd variables here ranging from how you used to field them, if you want to consider that as how it would be or not, if you want to consider the grenade and fleet aspects, if you want to consider the PGL upgrade, yadda, yadda, yadda.

For me this actually comes back to the way I decided with Haems, but conversely.

Nowadays I very rarely feild Incubi and never do so competitively.
Back in the day I fielded Incubi a lot and often did so competitively (indeed, considering them an important competitive tool)

That's my call - what's yours?

Can you add a "I don't like incubi at all" button to this?

Really, hugely not a fan... What I would like to know is how GW justifies giving a 10pt model a 4++ save, but can't give a 22pt model a invul save at all (when their competitors, point wise, only cost 3 more points, have 2+/5++ saves, and can easily have 8str power weapons and a 3++ save, and come standard with assault grenades...) while I know that DE aren't marines, that still seems more than a little lopsided, and even the special incubi hero doesn't have an invul save (while his counterpart has a 4++/3++cc save, and costs 55 points less) and no grenades... and I say, what good is a power weapon, when I'm not likely to get to use it, or I have to waste 44-66 points in order to use it!

I could rage against new incubi all day...

If the old Incubi weapons were 2-handed, wouldn't this prevent them from gaining a bonus attack from the pistol? I really can't remember 3rd edition rules, nor if Incubi had an exception to this if this was the case.

And Kelly really should've made Tormentor Helms work in a similar way to Whip Coils - while Incubi would still strike at I1 when assaulting through cover, so would the enemy they're attacking. Of course, this doesn't help against Halberds (all +I stuff still applies), but would help against most stuff.

Sami wrote:

If the old Incubi weapons were 2-handed, wouldn't this prevent them from gaining a bonus attack from the pistol? I really can't remember 3rd edition rules, nor if Incubi had an exception to this if this was the case.

The exception was the Tormentor Helm wargear itself.
The pistol was on the hat - no hands required and it gave the +1 Attack bonus like being armed with an additional pistol/CCW.

This is a hard one for me. I absolutely friggin' LOVE Incubi, in all their incarnations. On one hand I like them having their own slot, making them sort-of-independent from the Archon option; on the other hand I -liked- being able to field 3 Blaster Wych squads alongside them just like I would probably like to field 3 units of Blasterborn now. Alas. The loss of assault grenades (and hence actual dependence on the Archon) does nothing to ease the pain.

On the plus side, my biggest gripe with the old guys was their lack of Fleet, and that's been remedied. It may seem like a minor issue but to me it's HUGE. Also, the addition of the PfP rule adds significantly to one of their greatest perks (resiliency). So many things have changed -around- the Incubi that it's hard to straight up compare the two versions. But in the end, I must say I'm more comfortable with the new ones; they simply feel more streamlined.

Nevertheless I voted option 3. There's no arguing with mass high-Ini PW attacks.

Thor665 wrote:

Sami wrote:

If the old Incubi weapons were 2-handed, wouldn't this prevent them from gaining a bonus attack from the pistol? I really can't remember 3rd edition rules, nor if Incubi had an exception to this if this was the case.

The exception was the Tormentor Helm wargear itself.
The pistol was on the hat - no hands required and it gave the +1 Attack bonus like being armed with an additional pistol/CCW.

Cheers

Raneth wrote:

So many things have changed -around- the Incubi that it's hard to straight up compare the two versions.

Yeah - in many ways this was the toughest OvN to do yet, and I suspect it will remain as such.
That said - we had to have an Incubi v. Incubi matchup, to do less would be a crime.

I voted new Incubi, sure they don't have grenades but that has never been a problem for me. Also, they are cheaper, and going on synergy that lets me fit in more darklight. In addition, they are better at multi-tasking - with all the options they can go IC hunting, threaten light vehicles and cut through MEQ like a petrol powered chainsaw through a newborn squiq.

Painbiro wrote:

I voted new Incubi, sure they don't have grenades but that has never been a problem for me. Also, they are cheaper, and going on synergy that lets me fit in more darklight.

Though they do compete directly with one of our most potent Darklight units, the Trueborn.

Painbiro wrote:

In addition, they are better at multi-tasking - with all the options they can go IC hunting, threaten light vehicles and cut through MEQ like a petrol powered chainsaw through a newborn squiq.

MEQ killing - no question.
IC hunting...eh, I'll admit I don't think either brand of Incubi should do that without an attached IC, and at that point it's not the Incubi doing the hunting (they can hunt Wussy-McWuss ICs, but there's hardly a point to 'hunting' those types down.
Threatening light vehicles - you mean, the Demi-Klaives in assault? Other than that I would think Old are as good (or better if you consider Blasters, but I'm not really sold on using Blasters on them except in very specific builds)

Can't argue with the cheaper though - unquestionably one of their stronger aspects considering the statline was basically left unchanged (though robbed of their shooting attack...but, that was not used all that much in any case)

Did old Incubi had Fleet?

Old wins. no grenades. They really force you into that PGL Archon if you don't want them to get pulped. I've had some success with "second charging" the incubi into an existing tarpit, but that takes alot of manuevering and usually only works once.

The grenades make the old even more expensive though... And the extra body(s) you would get for the new when combined with the starting difference should make the grenades a wash

I would probably vote for the new ones. Better models, streamlined rules, not too complicated. The grenades strike me as odd, but maybe that's to promote the PGL.

HEROBEAR wrote:

I would probably vote for the new ones. Better models, streamlined rules, not too complicated. The grenades strike me as odd, but maybe that's to promote the PGL.

Thing is, the one unit that would actually take the PGL doesn't have access to it on it's sergeant!

Old ones had grenades, while the new ones must take an Archon with PLG (what the hell were they thinking when they decided to take away our grenades?). On the other hand, the old ones had to take an Archon with them anyway. I think I'm leaning slightly towards the new ones. Fleet helps them reach their target faster, and they're a bit cheaper. Also, they have power from pain, which is pretty big (Incubi being what they are, will have pretty easy time getting at least one token, giving them fnp and making them quite a bit more surviveable. Second token turms them into absolute murder machines).

I voted new. I don't miss the gun on the helmet because... They have the attack build into their basic profile! And who ever shot with the guns on the helmet prior to an assault? Not me. Plus it looked ridiculous. Don't forget they now have fleet, which is huge. The old ones didn't have fleet.

I agree they compete in one of the most difficult slots though. But it makes building a list fun. I have had great fun with the new Incubi and an Archon in a venom. And you can still take 2x units of blasterborn in a venom. Gives you a lot of HtH and AT from the getgo.

Nah, i'm happy with my new Incubi. I miss some 'nades though, so if I can spare the points I'll equip the PGL on the archon. But other than this, quite happy... Just my 2 cents.

Correct me if i'm wrong; but a vanilla Archon comes with plasma grenades, so doesn't that mean any unit he goes with has assault grenades?

Nope, assault grenades only work for models equiped with them, not whole units.

BRB p.36 wrote:

Models equipped with assault grenades don’t suffer
the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies
through cover, but fight as normal.

And seriously 'hats with guns' guys, 'hats with guns'! What's more awesome than that?

callofdoobie wrote:

Correct me if i'm wrong; but a vanilla Archon comes with plasma grenades, so doesn't that mean any unit he goes with has assault grenades?

Like Tiri Rana said... No.

@Tiri Rana: Bra's with guns dude. Like in Austin Powers movies. But seriously, i for one am glad we got rid of the ol' penisheads.

This one is close for me. Old Incubi had grenades, Incubi Master had access to the armory (so ftw drugs instead of our "meh" drugs), were outside the force org, could get blasters, and used badass polearms (seriously why take away the best thing about our models!!!) But had no fleet and you had to take an Archon or Dracon for them, but consider new Incubi need a PGL to do well anyway, I dont see that as much of a downside.

New Incubi have fleet, PfP, and are cheaper, but lack of grenades and competition in the Force Org really hurts them. I was like thor and wanted Incubi to be elite slots, but now that they created Trueborn I wish they were a retinue again

But what really solidifies my vote is this:







Trenchcoats FTW!!!!! Vect's Incubi wins!!!

Tiri Rana wrote:

And seriously 'hats with guns' guys, 'hats with guns'! What's more awesome than that?

Fleet. Duh.

Oh, and I also have to second Vect's bodyguard as the coolest Incubi models ever!

Azdrubael wrote:

Did old Incubi had Fleet?

No.

Sami wrote:

Thing is, the one unit that would actually take the PGL doesn't have access to it on it's sergeant!

It's funny I didn't consider this till you pointed it out, but...yeah, why the hell can the Hekatrix take a PGL and the Klaivex can't?

tlronin wrote:

I voted new. I don't miss the gun on the helmet because... [snip] it looked ridiculous.

Sorry to have to tell you this, but I've decided I hate you for having bad taste

And in other news, this match is being a lot closer than I anticipated, this one looks like it will be tight win for whoever gets the lead.

Thor665 wrote:

Azdrubael wrote:

Did old Incubi had Fleet?

No.

Sami wrote:

Thing is, the one unit that would actually take the PGL doesn't have access to it on it's sergeant!

It's funny I didn't consider this till you pointed it out, but...yeah, why the hell can the Hekatrix take a PGL and the Klaivex can't?

tlronin wrote:

I voted new. I don't miss the gun on the helmet because... [snip] it looked ridiculous.

Sorry to have to tell you this, but I've decided I hate you for having bad taste

And in other news, this match is being a lot closer than I anticipated, this one looks like it will be tight win for whoever gets the lead.

Hate is a strong word my friend, use it wisely.

As for the Klaivex not being able to pick up a PGL... Yeah, waddup with that? Good that Sami pointed that out.

I'm abit torn i have both the new and old models.

one thing that really pees me off about the new incubi is the horns and the stupidly oversized swords.

the helmets though are excellent.

Personally I like the style of the swords. The differing hand-grips allow them to be used for different styles of fighting, exactly as described in the fluff. Of course, it could be that Kelly saw the models and thought "how the hell do I explain that sword?", but regardless the end result works out okay


And sorry, but the old Incubi helms did look a bit daft