What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

yup! 3 glances will wreck a normal vehicle, so scourges just became superb. the ability to rapidly re-deploy really helps too. we're so lucky in that we have excellent AT options now in fast attack, what with reavers kitted with lances and melta and scourges glancing stuff. should free up those heavy slots if you want to play with flyers or MC

my little evaluation on 6th ed

HQ
Nerfed: Vect (CANT KILL TEQ IN CQC? YERWOT?), Urien (FnP general nerf), Archon (agonizer and huskblade nerf), Succubus (same as archon), Decrapitator (probably can't get worse anyway, but he did)
meh: Malys (wasn't assault based, cheap and not too much change), haemy (still as usual)
buffed: baron (making hellions troops), duke (5+ ignore armour is godsend), lelith (ignore armour is better compared to 5th ed lelith), drazhar (5++ save due to feel no pain, ability to zip around).

Troops
wyches: nerfed when it comes to AI, buffed vs AV.
warriors: buffed in gunboats

Elites
Incubi: boo hoo (sorry for the doom and gloom) but AP3 is a bit sad
mandrakes: if the infiltrate thing is true with haemy then it is buff, if not.....meh
wracks: 5+ FnP but can stand vs AP 1/2.....poison got better.....meh
grots: same as above...meh
Blasterborn: as usual......good
bloodbrides: nerfed due overwatch, AV is same as norm wyches so dont bother

Fast
Hellions: better with hammer of wrath
beasts: beastmaster can now challenge, wound allo is a biach though, WWP also out of work, ignoring terrain is always good
Reavers: permanent 4+ jink (3+ with turbo boost) is a beast! also we can now ignore dangerous terrain
scourge: buff due to haywire

Heavy
Both fliers have been given complete makeovers making them beast!
ravager good as always, not much change there
FW Reaper: its haywire gun has had major buffs, buy forgeworld!
FW tantalus: meh, useful against those 2+ armour guys, other than that i dont see much
FW raven: we dont need to bother with it as the razor wing is better
talos: buffed, ap2 assault is rarer, however WWP is out
Chronos: meh, pain tokens FnP got nerfed but does give it a 5++ save vs most shooting/assaulting......furious charge got nerfed also

transport
raider: better as gunboat
venom: same (flickerfields is wasted though as we get jink)

most of you probably have different opinions......i'm sorry if i offended your favourite unit
also if you read, there isn't too much difference in our playing style apart from WWP being lost and assaulting being rather weaker, but in the end, this is the 41st millenium, despite having machine guns and huge lasers....we still want to hit the enemy with our swords...

I'd say Urien actually got a buff. Sure, his fnp is 5+ instead of 4+, btu sicne he has t5, he now gets fnp against anything lower than s10, including most of those nasty powerfists and -weapons. With clonefield, regeneration and 3+ instant death, he actually makes a really good character in challenge (most Marine ICs have 3 attacks with a powerfist. Urien ignores an average of 2, and heals 1 wound every turn. Meanwhile, he only needs to get a single wound in to win).

Hellions got a big nerf imo. Look at the old tactic with Hellions. You hided ~50% behind cover and laughed about incoming fire due to +3 cover save and +4 fnp until you could charge.

Now try to hide 100% of your Hellions behind cover, for +4 cover and +5 fnp. Every Hellion in the open will get focus fired into oblivion. We all know how big a 20 man Hellion blob is, can't always hide all of them and the ones that are in the open will die.

i think 10 warriors on a raider isn't a good choice even with splinter racks. If that raider explodes (and it will) we'll lose too many warriors. And the others left in the open are dead meat. It's too risky put all eggs in one basket. Venoms (even if they are more fragile) are a safer choice imho, and the volume of fire is about the same: 16 rapid fire rerollable poisoned shots for the raider and 20 for the venom without reroll. At longer range is 16 for the venom but only 8 for the raider. The only thing to consider is that the raider comes with 3 lances inside while the venom has only 1. The venom is cheaper by more than 50 points however.

@Eresh, what are you talking about? Raider with 3 lances? We dont need that meny now that glancing vehicles to death is a good option. As i see, more ppl are converting the front dark lance into a disintegrator, i think a splinterrack is a good option, a shredder and a splinter cannon is very nice also. That makes 16+4+1blast for rapid range, 8+4+1blast for not rapid range.
the one thing that can topple that in firepower is a venom with dual cannons and cannonborn inside...but they cant reroll fail to hits and are very expensive pts wise.

If you don't take 2 lances on the warrior blob, what do you take? Splinter cannon? If you do the math, you spend more money to have the same you already have on a venom.

Dissies are just plain bad. Do the math, splinter cannons are better or equal than a disintegrator to deal with any type of infantry even TH/SS termies.

Do the math:
A venom does 20 splinter shots long range or 24 rapid fire. Cost: 120points
A raider does 3 dissie shots, 12 splinter shots rerollable at long range or 20 splinter shots rerollable and 1 blast at short range. Cost: 175

Are you sure raider is better?

Ereshkigal wrote:

Dissies are just plain bad. Do the math, splinter cannons are better or equal than a disintegrator to deal with any type of infantry even TH/SS termies.

Okay, vs MEQ:

Splinter Cannon - 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 0.66 unsaved
Disintegrator - 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 unsaved

But you have 2 cannons on a venom.

Ereshkigal wrote:

But you have 2 cannons on a venom.

a) You compared disintegrators to splinter cannon and told us to do the math. I did.
b) even with 2 cannon, they're still only the same as a disintegrator vs MEQ.

I said splinter cannonS. Plural.
Yes, it's equal against meq. What about against MC? Or orks? Or genestealer? It's only marginally worse against terminators.

And they cost less. If you have almost equal efficiency but with a reduced price, why should you pay premium?

Ereshkigal wrote:

I said splinter cannonS. Plural.
Yes, it's equal against meq. What about against MC? Or orks? Or genestealer? It's only marginally worse against terminators.

And they cost less.

And you said against any type of infantry. Lesson of the day. Absolutist statements are bad.

But it's true! Against any infantry the double sc loadout is better than the single disintegrator. I said better or equal. Against MEQ is equal for example. Against normal termies i think it's a little (very little) worse, against TH/SS are equal. AND THEY COST LESS!

Maybe, it's worth considering the option to take a raider with only 5 warriors inside and a disintegrator. But it will cost more than the venom anyway (5 points minimum, but to have the same efficiency you'll spend another 10 points).

and btw you didn't factor in the cover. Against covered targets, splinter cannon shine.

the problem with venoms isnt effeciency, its the possiblity

Dissies allow for no armor saves to be taken. So when it does 2 wounds, it does 2 wounds.

say a splinter cannon does 4 wounds. on each armor save taken a TEQ has a 16% chance of dying. So even though mathhammer says a certain # should die, it almost never happens. Its all about averages.

Basically what Im saying is that when your opponent's dice are hot, you will wish you had that dissie

Well tbh crap happens anyway... maybe with only 3 shots with a dissie you'll miss all 3 like i did with 3 lances last game i played... But in the end, you'll roll a lot of dices in a game, you'll get average results

ok, Eres, you have 3 options: msu, so unites of 5 in venoms, low cost, shooty a bit, no rerolls, get 5+ we get anyway from 1" movement, OR raider with darklance with a unite of 10 with 2 lances and rapid fire, OR, a raider with disint, a cannon, a shredder and rapid fire - leaving the glancing to death to the wyches.
option one vs meq
36" 12 shots, 8 hit, 4 wound, 1.33 unsaved
24" 16 shots, 10.67 hit, 5.33 wound, 1.77 unsaved
18" - blaster - 0.55 unsaved
12" 20+1 shots, 13.3 hit, 6.67 wound, 2.22 unsaved+0.55blaster
so you killed max 3 marines and next turn you lose the transport, and probably whats inside as well from 12".
raider with 3 lances:
36" 2 shots, 1.33 hit, 1.11 unsaved
24" 8 shots+2 lances, 7.11 hit, 3.56 wound, 1.19 unsaved+1.11 lances
18" 0.55 unsaved
12" 16 shots +3 lances, 16 shots, 14.22 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.37 unsaved +1.66 unsaved for a total of 4.03 unsaved, remarkably, its hiher than the venom, although it didnt move in order to get full bs on the mobile dark lance, shame.
raider with disint and cannon, so able to move
36" 3 disints, 4 shots, 2+3.55 hit, 1.33 unsaved + 0.59 unsaved, for a total of 1.92 unsaved. Advantage: gunboat.
24"the previous+ 8 shots 7.11 hit, 3.56 wound, 1.19 unsaved+1.92 for a total of 2.11 unsaved. Advantage: gunboat.
12" 16shots, 3 disints, and a blast for av. 3.5 hits, doing 2.91 wounds, 0.97 unsaved+ 16 shots, 14.22 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.37 unsaved, plus 1.33 unsaved, for a total of 4.76 unsaved.

so venom vs gunboat 3 vs 5 kills. you said to do the math.

Basically, disintegrators are better against models with good saves (better the save, the greater the difference) and T <6. Splinter Cannons are better against higher toughness and/or worse armour save. Disintegrators also have a use against vehicles, which splinter cannons cannot even scratch.

It's horses for courses and making blanket statement about one being crap is not very helpful.

You didn't factor in the cover, and while you are at it factor also the wounds per point. The gunboat with dark lances costs almost double.

yes, but i dont use darklances, so it doesnt cost double, further more you dont have to diert a nother unite to shoot at the target to get the required effect.
So factoring in a nother venom and say a nother squad of warriors with a blaster is more, than a gunboat with racks

125 vs 185 points i think. And if the raider explodes?

Btw i'll review the math, because you will almost always shoot at things in cover. Against MEQ in cover:

Venom at 12"
1 lance: 0,37 wounds
20 splinters: 2,2 wounds
TOTAL: 2,57 wounds
COST: 125
WOUNDS PER POINT: 0,02

Raider at 12" with dissies
3 disintegrators: 0,88 wounds
1 lance: 0,37 wounds
4 splinter cannon: 0,44
16 splinters with reroll: 2,32
TOTAL: 4,01
COST: 185
WOUNDS PER POINT: 0,02

This is the best case scenario for the raider however. What do you gain and what do you lose:
- every 3 venoms you only get 2 raiders. This means the hull point total is the same.
- you gain 1 more scoring troop if you go venom route.
- If a raider explodes you are in a worse position: 10 people will get the blast, 10 people will now be on foot.

All in all things are fairly similar, i didn't think GW could balance that well. But on longer range venoms are superior and you get 1 extra scoring troop every 2 raiders, that's big imho.

Eres, i didnt say one venom, i said TWO(!!!) venoms are needed to get the same kill result on MEQ as a gunboat. 2 venoms w blastiors and cannon is 250, vhere as a gunboat with 10 warriors a cannon a disint and a shredder and racks is 175
yes, if a raider explodes, you lose aprox 5 guys, if a venom explodes, you lose aprox 3, if a raider explodes, you lose 5 out of 60, if a venom, you lose 3 out of 30, that is a big difference.

and you cant have a lance, a cannon and a disint on the same raider, recalc that pls, but have a cold shower before that.

What you said it's simply not true. 1,5 venoms are needed, and you can split your fire venom shoots one unit, the passengers another one. So you don't even waste part of your fire if the target isn't worth all of it (and wounds per point and hull points per point are the same)

And you should have a cold shower because you can have 1 blaster, 1 splinter cannon and the dissie on the raider.
1 every 10 warriors can replace the rifle for a splinter cannon
1 warrior can replace the rifle for a blaster.
So if you have 10 warriors you can have 1 blaster and 1 splinter cannon.

Ereshkigal wrote:

3 disintegrators: 0,88 wounds
1 lance: 0,37 wounds
4 splinter cannon: 0,44

sorry, i thought lance is for DARK lance, for a blaster has the LANCE SR, but its a blaster.
and yes, you only need 1.5, but that is more than 1. You use 1 choice to get the effect, or you divert your fire, shooting one full squad at the target, the transport at the same and the passangers of the second at a nother, using 2 choices, 10 man virtually in a transport, OR, you only use 1 choice, so the other 5(!!) can do the same. And you still assumed, after i wrote down specifically, that i would use a shredder, not a blaster, for 10 pts less, that i use a blaster.

so basically, for less points, you waste half a squads potential, for only 50 pts. And you can guaranty that what disint wounds from meq, it kills, and that is more than a blaster warrior, and from further away. for 750 pts, you use 2 venoms and one passanger mark to take down 3*3, using whatever else you have to just ok lets shoot, for 1050 pts, you kill 30 marines. 9 vs 30, 750 vs 1050, coming down to 0.012 vs 0.028 kills per point.

Edit: i calculated the rest of the shots for 12" range, what you deliver from the venom, for 4.33 unsaved, making it 5, so 14, increasing the kpp to 0.018. Still to low

But you give more targets with the venoms (and that's the point of MSU). A leman russ can't kill 2 venoms in a single turn, while it can destroy 1 single raider.

Ereshkigal wrote:

But you give more targets with the venoms (and that's the point of MSU). A leman russ can't kill 2 venoms in a single turn, while it can destroy 1 single raider.

you lose one squad potential nonetheless. But if you give a leeman russ the opportunity to shoot at you...well thats a tactical error to begin with