BR9: The Black Buzzards VS GK Razorspam - 1500pts

cegorach wrote:

i am disappointed by the msu for now, since trueborns rarely ever shoot anything at the first turn, and generally when the vehicles explode, with str 4 hits on passengers now, you most probably have to take two ld test, one for pinning, one for casualties. so i want to try a different route.

I never really used blasterborn last edition so I wouldn't really know. But the double leadership test is a pain, and one of the reasons it's always worth getting a hekatrix with Vblade for LD9 even when running MSU whyches.

cegorach wrote:

i don't use too many hellions about 12-14, (multiples of 4 +baron to avoid lds by casualties) and is the only unit that actually do stuff. drugies as they are, would be glad to have duke on board. you think wyches play better?

Haven't experimented much with hellions this edition. All I know is so far wyches seem to work, I can imagine a large unit of hellions with the baron being more effective, I just don't think hellions units on their own (not joined by the baron) are that great.

cegorach wrote:

my meta has lists with enough flyers, so i wonder if i should try to counter them, or not bother (i see you don't really bother and you did fine against the necron, but how about 2 gk storm ravens with psybolt blotters, assault cannon, multimelta, 2 blasts a turn, which can hover instead of moving out of the table).

Avoiding them works reasonably well. My biggest problem against Storm ravens is not that they are flyers but the fact that they have ceremite plating (so melta doesn't work). If they enter hover mode at least haywire wyches have a chance, still not great. I would probably just have to ignore them as best I can.

cegorach wrote:

i like the last list for 2 pain tokens on hellions, but then i don't have the duke, and again this trick is situational.
btw, i don't really care about having warriors, since most of the army is flatting out and duke is better off with a unit of wyches.

Yes it is situational. Honestly I would prefer to try and fit the duke in there. I also completely agree with your assessment of the duke, why have 3+ splinter weapons when you get to start him in a CC squad where he belongs and have even more units that benefit from drugs (not that 3+ splinter is bad, I guess it's a preference thing)? Duke and Baron is a nice combination.

cegorach wrote:

should i bother with flyers? if no, even when they have enough firepower and are even hovers that transport/or not, nusty stuff? (in that case i am thinking of adding two void ravens)

I'm still debating that question myself.

Duke and the baron both have shadowfields which you can only have one per army right?

Fraust wrote:

Duke and the baron both have shadowfields which you can only have one per army right?

That rule doesn't exist anymore. You can have two, or four with double-FOC!

Sometimes I lo e being wrong

mushkilla, if you don't mind me highjacking the thread, i'll just report some conclusions i made playing two games today with the list i was planing. just exchanging opinions as two friendly archons (i'll have my lhamaean stab you later...)

i don't really have any battle reports, and they wouldn't really be very interesting since my opponents weren't that much prepared for my army as it seemed and i won both matches.

i had:

duke as warlord
baron

12 hellions
8 wyches, hekatrix, pgl, venom blade, haywires
raider, enhanced aet., night shields, disint.
8 wyches, hekatrix, pgl, venom blade, haywires
raider, enhanced aet., night shields, disint.
5 wyches, haywires
raider, disint.

9 bikes, champion, venom blade, 3 lances
9 bikes, champion, venom blade, 3 lances

voidraven
voidraven

first game vs BT with 4 shooting units of terms (one was gk with marshal giving scoring to more), 2 more troops 5 men and aegis

second vs Space wolves Logan drop pod+ multimeltas, another 2 units long fangs missiles, razorbacks with troops, rune priest, 2 dreadnaughts twin autocannons, elites in rhino full in combiweapons

i won the templar easier than i thought, the space wolf was lucky with his saves and we kinda stack in assaults all over table for many rounds.

so conclusions:
the duke died miserably very fast in the first game by a challenge from the chaplain ID lost shadow field on second wound, in the second game by a lost los from a plasma first turn losing his shadow field on that first failed los
so i didn't really see him perform anything, the drugs was a nice boost for the whole army, but i guess i could live with rolling only one die

the hellions performed great in both games, they follow closely the rest of the army, and because the rest are faster, they are ignored usually, big mistake. in that number they are not very lethal, but perfect to surround a vehicle to wreck it and kill the passengers, or just deal damage where needed. hit and run is a life savior, especially on game two where we were in assaults all the time.

wyches did fine, i am not sold on the pgl yet, need to play test them a little longer. haywires are a wonder now that you can even throw one in shooting, and plasma grenade blast is very nice as well

i don't think the bikes really killed enough stuff to justify their high cost, but were a big threat and can give many solutions where they are needed

void ravens were kinda good, not any flyers around, they survived both games (even though in both the opponents in their one objective had sky fire) leaving table and throwing the bomb wasn't bad at all. i am not convinced yet about them, maybe put a razor wing and one raven? or...

and here i come to the general conclusions...
i had big trouble getting the first blood, even though i played first, i can only count on bladevayne (if it is safe for the bikes later on and perhaps disintegrators, if i don't stay too far back, so maybe should after all ignore flyers and put three ravagers in there?
i guess i could live without the duke and save some points there, for a third heavy support, or a succubus/archon and boost the 5 man wyches or hellions, or add anything else? (any suggestions? beasts, wyches, incubi?)
i didn't play second in those games, but baron kinda helps me playing two out of three games first, statistically, the guy is awesome

i think something is missing.. although i did fine, i think it still needs some tweaking

cegorach wrote:

mushkilla, if you don't mind me highjacking the thread, i'll just report some conclusions i made playing two games today with the list i was planing. just exchanging opinions as two friendly archons (i'll have my lhamaean stab you later...)

Don't worry that's exactly what this thread is for, promoting discussion and experimentation! (And you Ihamaean better have a jetbike and be good at immelman turns)

Glad to see the hellions doing well, as a Slaanesh Chaos Daemon player I have always been a big fan of hit and run.

The PGL is worth it's weight in gold once you get used to using it, remember the wyches have a 57% chance of making a 9" charge in the open and a 52% chance of making a 8" charge through cover thanks to fleet. So they should be, when they can, moving into cover and charging out of it to get that 3-4+ save against overwatch). It also synergies well with the craters raiders leave when they explode.

Bike are one of those units that may not always "make their points back" but still win you the game, they just give you so many options, their ability to redeploy anywhere to contest an objective is game wining alone.

I'm still not sure on flyers and have yet to try any of them so no idea there.

First blood can be a problem, I'm actually experimenting with lists that maximise first blood, line breaker and warlord slayer and minimise giving a way first blood, warlord slayer, and line breaker. It's an interesting concept for sure, and with DEs speed and inability to hold objective, contesting and winning on secondary objectives seems like the way to go.

The baron seemed to work well, as for the duke if you don't feel you need the drug roll then you should drop him. Ravagers might help more the flyers as they would increase your chances of first blood and give you some more armour saturation.

Hope that helps.

Sorry for the quick and contextless question, but Cegorach, doesn't the Duke require a squad of Warriors or Trueborn in your army?

No worries.

Q: What happens if your force contains Duke Sliscus but does not
contain any Kabalite Warriors or Kabalite Trueborn, as the Serpent’s
Venom special rule says he must deployed with one of those units? (p51)
A: He will deploy like any other independent character.

Hope that helps.

Mushkilla wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

I've just grabbed 6 reavers for £18.63 on eBay, so quite pleased with that. Gives me 9 in total now and I should get another 9 in a month or so.

Nice, That was a steal! I would give the nine a go first and see how they mesh with your current army, before getting more though.

(so my GW propaganda got to you in the end!)

Slight thread necro here and also a bit off topic but just picked up the other 9 reavers, even though I've yet to build, paint or use the first bunch! Managed to find a Dark Eldar Megaforce and got it for under £100. RRP for the models sold individually is over £215 so I was dead chuffed. Also sorts out all my troops options and gives me a few more vehicles. Only thing I don't need is the 5 Scourges. Not because I don't want to use them but with 18 Reavers and a big Beasts unit I don't have the Fast Attack slots!

Wow sounds like you got a great deal, and those scourges are always good for the bitz box, or ebay. Beautiful models them scourges. Looking forward to finding out how you get along with the reavers (btw part 2 of the reaver tactica is up).