Succubus, Wyches, Raiders and Explosions!

From my games in 6th edition I have found succubi to be very effective for their cost, how effective I never really bothered to work out, but they seemed to get the job done. I recently had a discussion over at Librarium Online where I was pushed to actually theory it all out to show that my experience actually made sense. This is a compilation, hopefully people will find it interesting (original topic).

Part 1

Muskilla wrote:

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My question to you is not the question of wargear alone but also who are you taking the succubus to be faster than? If you want a thematically appropriate HQ that doesn't get too expensive sure go for your life but if you're interested in actually knowing which HQ is better the succubus' extra initiative and WS doesn't really justify how much she loses out.

I will explain my reasoning behind why I think a succubus is a viable choice.

Firstly she is cheap, come with combat drugs, a 4+ invulnerable in CC and better WS and I for 5 point more. That extra point of WS means that if you roll +1WS on the combat drug table WS4 models hit you on 5s. As for the extra point of I, now that units use the highest I value in the unit for sweeping advance is never a bad thing (makes catching enemies and escaping more reliable). She also has a BS6 plasma grenade which is handy. With a venom blade the cost of a succubus comes to 70pts, that's a bargain which gives you a fighty HQ whilst freeing up points to spend on the rest of your army.

The main problem with the succubus in 5th was that she could get singled out too easily, and she would just get taking down by volume of attacks. Look Out Sir on a 2+ largely removes this problem, this effectively gives you the hidden agoniser/venom blade of 5th edition.

So why did I spend points on a succubus, when I already had a cheap archon (venom blade, shadow field)?

A succubus with a venom blade on the charge is as effective as 6.66 whyches on the charge (79.92 points), doesn't suffer from exploding vehicles as much (only taking one S4 hit as opposed to six S4 hits). Another nice bonus when you roll a 6 on the combat drug chart as it gives the unit two pain token (FNP and FC).

In short I saw it as a cheap way to give a wych unit more punch.

Part 2

Muskilla wrote:

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I'd rather just have the extra wyches tbh. You're comparing a 7 wound unit to a 3 wound single model with the same toughness. Based on your earlier maths... they have nearly identical performance?

The succubus might be a 3 wound model but she only takes one hit when a raider goes down, 7 wyches on the other hand take 7 hits (an average of 3.88 wounds), not only does that negate their wound advantage, but it also reduces there effectiveness by more than half. So I would even say the succubus has better performance.

Lets compare the following two wych units on the charge (drugs rolls are not included for simplicity):

10 wyches, hekatrix, haywire, agoniser - 150

Starting CC damage output against MEQ is 2.5 wounds.
Starting shouting damage output against MEQ is 1 wound(not taking into account grenades).
BS4 plasma grenade has a 44.4% chance of not scattering.
Starting number of haywire grenades 10.
This wych unit has 10 wounds.
This unit on average takes 5.5 wounds when its raider explodes (we will round down to 5).
CC damage output after crash against MEQ 1.66 wounds.
Shouting damage output after crash against MEQ is 0.55.
Number of haywire grenades after crash is 5.
After the crash this wych unit has 5 wounds.
Sweeping advance initiative 6 gives you a 83.3% chance of catching marines.
Sweeping advance initiative 6 gives you a 72.2% chance of not getting caught by marines
Protection against precision shot/strike is a 4+ LOS and 1 wound.
Challenge damage output against MEQ is 1 wound.
Challenge survivability is 1 wound.
Challenge initiative is 6.
Average number of precision strike on the charge is 0.66.
Can't regroup below 3 models unless rolling snake eyes (25% casualties).

Sucubus, agoniser
5 wyches, haywire - 145

Starting CC damage output against MEQ is 2.83 wounds.
Starting shouting damage output against MEQ is 0.55 wounds (not taking into account grenades).
BS6 plasma grenade has a 61.1% chance of not scattering.
Starting number of haywire grenades 5.
This wych unit has 8 wounds.
This unit on average takes 3.33 wounds when it's raider explodes (we will round down to 3).
CC damage output after crash against MEQ is 2.33 wounds.
Shouting damage output after crash against MEQ is 0.22 wounds.
Number of haywire grenades after crash is 2.
CC damage output after crash against MEQ if you take two crash wounds on the succubus is 2.66 wounds.
Shouting damage output after crash against MEQ if you take two crash wounds on the succubus is 0.44 wounds.
Number of haywire grenades after crash if you take two crash wounds on the succubus is 4.
After the crash this wych unit has 5 wounds.
Sweeping advance initiative 8 gives you a 97.22% chance of catching marines.
Sweeping advance initiative 8 gives you a 91.67% chance of not getting caught by marines
Protection against precision shot/strike is a 2+ LOS and 3 wound.
Challenge damage output against MEQ is 2 wound.
Challenge survivability is 1-3 wound.
Challenge initiative is 8.
Average number of precision strike on the charge is 1.
Can always regroup (Heroic Moral).
Chance of starting with 2 pain tokens 16.6%.
Ability to shuffle/save pain tokens thanks to IC.
Can also split into two units for tactical reasons (throwing two grenades, charging separate units, overwatch etc).

The above is an exhaustive comparison of the two units, the unit with the succubus is 5 points cheaper and outperforms the other unit in almost every other way, even more so when you take into account the Dark Eldar method of delivery (raiders). The reduced crash damage and the option to allocate crash wounds on the succubus depending on your needs is really great: Need more AT? take 2 wounds on the succubus so you have 4 haywire grenades. Expect a challenge? Take the wounds on the wyches. Lots of ID weapons? Take 2 wounds on the succubus so they don't get wasted. The other big advantage is the succubus's survivability compared to the Hekatrix (2+ LOS, 3 wounds, quicker in challenges, and improved resilience against precision strikes/shots). There are also more subtle things: more accurate grenade, heroic moral (regrouping bellow 25%), higher initiative for sweeping advance increasing your chance of getting away or keeping marines locked in combat so they can't shoot you to pieces, save/transfer pain tokens and split the unit.

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Dark Eldar don't need the extra help with initiative and WS. What they need are strength bonuses. Agonisers are great so why don't I take an archon with an agoniser and save 5 points? Spend an extra 5 for 4+/6++? Also your pain token drugs roll is anecdotal. You have a 16% chance of getting it per game. I personally have never had it once in 20 games, maybe you get it more than I do? As a strategy combat drugs is worse than guardians.

Sure they are not needed, but they are far from useless: WS8 is nice because it actually makes the +1WS drug roll useful, being hit on 5s is great for challenges or when your squad dies, and Initiative 8 makes sweeping advance even more reliable, you don't want to get caught and you don't want to get stranded in the open (so reliability in those departments is never a bad thing). But the real advantage is that for 5 points you get drugs and a 4++ in close combat, that's an absolute bargain. Remember drugs are not taken because you have a chance of getting 2 pain tokens, they are taken because they have an 66-83% chance (depending on weapon load out) of increasing your combat ability in some way. An archon will never be as cost effective at such a low point level: 85pts for a succubus with drugs and a 4++ or 90pts for an archon with 4+/6++ armour and no drugs, the archon just can't compete.

Part 3

Muskilla wrote:

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And the numbers -without- factoring in a spectacular crash? You know they don't explode automatically any more?

That was the average on a crash, a crash could be a lot worse or a lot less damaging. You might even get lucky and get wrecked, or maybe even make it in one piece. What I like with the succubus is it plans for a rainy day and sures up the worst case scenario, minimising risk is an important aspect of 40k.

So what advantage do you get if you have some clean uninterrupted sailing (the numbers are already in my previous post)? You get 2 extra wounds, 5 extra haywire grenades (overkill, but still useful), and some more damage output from splinter pistols (probably mitigated by a more accurate grenade), however the succubus squad will still do slightly better in terms of CC damage (an extra 0.33 wounds against MEQ).

Would I drop the succubus just because in a best case scenario (raider not getting shot down) I will have 2 extra wounds and 5 haywire grenades? No.

Interestingly the succubus is so cost effective that combined with the nature of DE transportation she is more effective then her equivalent point in troops. In some ways you could see her as a "free" HQ. If your are running wyches and have a free HQ slot there is little reason not to run a succubus, as she is just as effective as the equivalent points you would have spent on wyches.

Thanks for getting me to do all the theory, I had worked this out from experience in my 6th edtion games, but it was nice to bash out the maths and see that the theory matched my real game experience.

Thoughts?

Whats more, at 2000 points that Wych Cult Army can consist 4 Succubi ) Or something like Lelith + 3 Succubi

That might very well be return of the Wych Cult archetype.

I agree on most points with you. With LoS! Succubi just became so much better.

It's a shame you can't get 2-3 succubi for each HQ choice (like Haemonculi), they really make wyches tick.

As I understood LoS in WHF, it is only attributable to shooting wounds. However, in 40K it doesn't specify. So, does that mean that a Succubus can get not only a 4++ CC save, but also a 2++ (pseudo) LoS save if you don't want her to take the wound?

When not in a challenge, yes

Very interesting statistics, thanks a lot!

One of the things I've considered though is that the archetype heroes (Haemys, Succubi) perform quite differently when mixed up with other kinds of troops instead of their own:

Succubi in Grots/Wracks gives you a MASSIVE +4I for use when sweeping/running. You get grenades (Yay!) and the option to either have the Succubus or Aberration/Acothyst accept challenges, depending on what youre up against. The built-in pain token also means the she-bitch gets FNP from the start, and a favourable Drug roll can have them start with FC.

Similarly, a Haemy in Wyches provides them with a free pain token to ensure that they start with FNP, which will cut the losses due to crashing transport down with 33% (more than half the cost of the stock Haemy in your example above). The Haemy can leave the unit before assaulting (and leave the Token!) to make sure they get to use Fleet, and can declare a charge of his own to make sure the Wyches can't be targetted with Overwatch.

The Succubus is great with grotesques for the reasons you mentioned (grenades only affect the model not the unit unfortunately), you can give a power axe & venom blade if you really want to go to town. The combination of a 4++ and FNP (equivalent of a 3++ against anything that's isn't S6 or above) and T5 means she can tank wounds for the grots in melee if she wants to. If only the succubus could take a PGL for ten points like Sirens and Hekatrix (sigh), she would be a cheap way to give some incubi grenades.

The Haemi trick is handy, his charging is pretty unreliable so most of the time I can imagine your opponent just ignoring him, it must pay off when it works though. Also unless the haemi gets killed in assault he has a 50% chance of getting the pain token when you win combat which could be a bit problematic.

Part 4

Mushkilla wrote:

The down side of running a haemonculus (although still a great option) with wyches is that it means you lose fleet unless you leave him on his own, and fleet is amazing this edition. If I really want to give wyches a pain token (normally I don't bother) I can just buy a a 30pt squad of wracks (I never fill out my elite slot so this is an easy option for me), and shuffle the token over with the succubus. Doing this won't lose me any movement on my first turn, and as long as I'm sensible with deployment it's safe. An option worth considering if you haven't filled out your elite slot and have an IC for moving the token.

Another thing I worked out is you can actually use high initiative characters to snipe models. wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. So you could get your succubus into base contact with say an apothcary/painboy/special weapon (and at worst one other model) and then you get to allocate hits against him (or him and the other model), as he is the only model in base contact with the model attacking at that initiative step.

Good point(s), and nice trick with the wound allocation! Works even better for Huskblade Archons

Setomidor wrote:

Works even better for Huskblade Archons

My thoughts exactly.

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That extra point of WS means that if you roll +1WS on the combat drug table WS4 models hit you on 5s

that never happens unless your not grouped with another unit ( which means that in that case, no "look out sir" ).
So I think that we can just forget that sentence because it's irrelevant unfortunately.

good stats though

THere is actually some sense in separating charging alone. One more grenade.

Fruz wrote:

that never happens unless your not grouped with another unit ( which means that in that case, no "look out sir" ).
So I think that we can just forget that sentence because it's irrelevant unfortunately.

Well in my experience, it comes into play in challenges against squad leaders (more useful when you run a venom blade as you are not guaranteed a kill) and when the squad is down to two models (succubus and another model) as then you use the highest weapon skill giving you a nice 16.6% more survivability. Also it can be well worth spliting the succubus from her squad in certain situation especially when the unit is down to 3 or less models, as it forces your opponent to split attacks and wounds won't overflow, it also means you will be guaranteed not to loose your succubus to overwatch. And as mentioned by Azdrubael you get a second grenade.

In short +1WS makes spliting more of an option as it makes the succubus more survivable against basic troops in close combat. Look at my last game, both succubi were fighting solo pretty early on.

as Challenges can happens only from 2nd round of combat, I don't take it into consideration anymore to be honest ( my archon + inccubi wipe out almost everything quite easily, and I usually charge a weakened unit ).
But for challenges, it is true that it's relevant.
I don't really see the 3 models situations happening often, and I did not think about having another grenade which can be useful.

Fruz wrote:

as Challenges can happens only from 2nd round of combat.

How so?

Fruz wrote:

I don't really see the 3 models situations happening often.

Well here is the list of the games my succubi have ended up on their own or paired with another wych.

BR5: Unit of two, I actually had +1WS in this game which helped me take out a dreadnought (as it could only hit on 5s).
BR6: Unit of two, and a succubus on her own.
BR7: Succubus on her own.
BR8: Unit of two, and a split for an extra grenade.
BR9: Succubus on her own.
BR10: Both succubi fighting on their own.

Six our of the seven games I have run a succubus or succubi they have ended up on their own or in a pair with a hekatrix. As far as I'm concerned that's more then enough to make +1WS useful.

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How so?

You can't challenge someone that isn't engaged in CC.
You get engaged in CC at your initiative step.
You challenge before the beginning of the fight => before the initiative steps.

And it's not that weird actually, the melee starts, then when everyone begins fighting, you challenge the guy you reach.
Otherwise it would be like : everyone stops, watch captains walk in the middle and begin their fight, then everyone fight.


Maybe I don't really realise because I'm not using wyches or almost and they don't kill and survive like my Incubbi ^^. +1WS does seem useful there.
I though having a succubus on her own would be too dangerous and overwatch was too precious, but there must be situations where it's not I guess.

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You get engaged in CC at your initiative step.

Why is that, excuse me? You get engaged in CC at the beginning of the fight sub-phase, if you are in base contact with enemy model. There is not a word about initiative.

actually no ( I think I check the english version as well there )
p22 of the ulebook, section "who can fight ?", it says that you have to specify if a model is [i]engaged[/i ]at its initiative step.

You check here if model can make an atack. To make an atack you do indeed need to be engaged at it close iniative step.
But that doesnt mean that before model can make an atack it is not engaged with the enemy, and cant issue challenges.

You outsmart yourself a little here.

No, it does says that a model is engaged if "during it's iniative step[...]" ( The wording comes from my memories of it as I don't have the rulebook right here ), that implies that you have to check it during your initiative step => unless this time, you can't check if you are engaged, and therefore you are not.
There are two condition for being engaged, this is one of them.

This has nothing to do with outsmarting, those are just the rules from the rulebook ( it had been subject of debat in a french forum and lasted a bit long if I remember well ).

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Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

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Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

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A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemv models.
During its Initiative stepr it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in
the same combat.

Thank you count Adhemar =).
This is the reason why I find that challenges much less attractive
( Btw, there is a phrase of the rulebook that could complete the whole thing : the one that says when challenges are issued = at the beginning of the fight <=> before initiative steps, I'll quote it later today if noone has done it ).

There are a few contradictions earlier, in the charge sub phase it says you need to "engage as many models as possible" (page 21). In the fight sub phase it said "work your way through the initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest." (page 22) this got FAQed in FAQ 1.0 to “Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest.” as otherwise models couldn't even fight in combat! So the section is a mess.

This combined with how challenges work in fantasty, and GW drive for a "cinematic game" leads me to believe that it will be fixed in upcoming FAQs. Most likely in GW's usual condescending manner "Of course you can fight in the first round of combat...DUHHH... - Lots of love GW".

But that's just my opinion, in the meantime I wonder how it worked at NOVA and other big tournaments.

Quote :

There are a few contradictions earlier, in the charge sub phase it says you need to "engage as many models as possible" (page 21).

I based myself on italic words to find statements such as "engaged".
Here, I think that the word is not here as the rule "engaged".

I didn't ask myself about other step of the fight considering that though, I'll give it a look I think.

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You challenge before the beginning of the fight => before the initiative steps.

Prove this. This both happens at Fight sub-phase. Why do you presume it happens not at the same time?
I have seen terribly many times how people invent secret time sub-phases and claimed that some things do or dont work *because* it is time and not a one line in rule later. Unless otherwise said - all things happen simulteniousely.

Quote :

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemv models.
During its Initiative stepr it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in
the same combat.

I still cant see how this will deny me Challenge in a first turn. I can meet this conditions.


The rest of the world also seem to think so as well. So a burden of proving is on you.

you can meet this conditions when both IC/sergent have already begun their initiative steps as it's a condition to be engaged, which means than if the iitiative values are different, one would have already been hitting and using his attacks ( as you hit at your initiative step ).
So no, unless you have both equals initiative values and you ignore the sentence of the rulebook that says that you challenge at the beginning ( which I will find and quote as soon as I can today ), you can't.