Lelith vs beefed up Archon?

So Lelith is around 170pts and we all know her monstrous stat line. Lets compare her to an Archon with SF, ST, HB, CD and PGL for 170pts.

Now imagine their retinue is the same. At 210pts we have 8 Wracks w/LFG, Hamonculi w/LFG in a Raider.

I really like the idea of this because on the charge it negates the S3 they both suffer from. They all have two PTs so have FNP as well and are majority T4. Alas they can't fleet which is a shame but they're a scoring retinue which has tactical advantages.

So here is a brief list of advantages and disadvantages to both:

Leltih:

Pros:
- A monstrous amount of attacks on the charge, 12 vs GEQ, 11 vs MEQ and 9-10 vs most IC. She has the potential to wipe out half a unit on her own.
- 1 less attack for people in base contact. Great for challenges as it increases her survivability.
- I9 and assault grenades, when is she going second?
- 3++ in CC and FNP means 78% of wounds ignored.

Cons:
- S3 when not on the charge is big so subsequent rounds of combat become more difficult. Anything T5 or higher is really out of her league.
- No PGL so the Wracks can't very reliably assault through cover.
- No shooting attack but that's not a great problem
- Couldn't scratch the mould of a vehicle. (Okay maybe a raider on the charge)
- No CD!

Husk blade Archon:

Pros:
- Instant death blade, very nasty and with IC or MC we double our strength woohoo! (The quickening comes to mind )
- All the greatness and frustration that comes with having a SF. Once it's down, we're history so potentially less survivable that Lelith.
- For 5pts more we can have HWG and potentially strip 2 HPs per turn from a vehicle.
- If we fill our ST we can go mashing vehicles. Especially with a +1S from combat drugs roll.
- Benefits from CDs. Re roll to wound is amazing, +1A or +1S fantastic with this guy as well and having an extra PT will bump the unit up to Fearless from the word go. It also means he can separate from the unit when leaving the raider and take 2 PTS giving him FC with fleet.
- PGL! This is what potentially sways it for me as the wracks become a very versatile assault unit able to assault through cover at S4 with poison weapons. This is really nasty.

Cons:
- Vulnerable to things once the SF goes down.
- Needs to fill the ST to achieve potential which means finding an IC or MC early on if possible.
- Less attacks and WS than Lelith.

The two scenarios for them are Challenges and AI. It's really hard to say who wins over all. The HB is obviously lethal with the ID rule but once the SF goes down, that's it. Denying the enemy an attack and being WS9 and ignoring 77% of saves means Lelith is lethal in duels. I think Lelith wins when it comes to mincing infantry in combat. Although the Archon can potentially be better at killing T5 guys like Nurgle Marines. What are people's thoughts on these two?

Also, quick rules question. If the Archon gets a +1S from CDs and then fills the ST is he strength 8 or 7? When do you do the doubling?

Double then add... So S7

Remember Lilith is WS9 so against most infantry is only hit on 5's as well.

She also has a nasty shooting attack - BS9 plasma grenades (that until FAQ'd ignore armour!)

Actually, as the Combat Drug result is no modifier but a stat raise, the Archon would have S8 after the soul trap. Furious charge however is a modifier, so it would indeed be S7. Both FC and the correct drug roll with a triggered ST would mean S9 on the charge.

A few points in favor of the Archon:
- The Archon has the option of picking up the Venom Blade for cheap to help make up for his low strength. That's nice if he doesn't want to be in a squad with Wracks/Grotesques/Haemon, if he doesn't roll +ST, if he doesn't start in a Wych squad with the Pain Token Drug roll, or turns after the charge/vs high Toughness Monstrous Creatures. Sure his attacks then don't ignore armor but it gives him options.
- The Archon gets a bonus attack for two ccws (and potentially +1 from a drug roll) that Lenith doesn't get. He also has the option of the Djinn blade if you just want masses of power weapon attacks (not that this is required, his basic 5-7 attacks are already pretty decent). Lenith will still have more attacks then him vs most targets but it can be slightly closer then it looks at first.
- If you don't take the PGL (say the squad he's joining already has grenades/a PGL) the Archon will likely be cheaper then Lenith.

For butchering masses of low toughness but high armor targets via sheer number of attacks Lenith can do the job quite well but her low strength and lack of options somewhat limits her to this role. The Archon can be tricked out to face most situations (including the same one Lenith excels in) and can do it all fairly well for roughly the same or less points.

Murkglow wrote:

The Archon gets a bonus attack for two ccws (and potentially +1 from a drug roll) that Lenith doesn't get.

This isn't true. Lelith has weapons that count as a Shardnet and Impaler and so gets +1A for 2 CCW.

Yea, I think the favour is more towards the Archon for usability. Your point her low strength is the reason for the wrack retinue so she has FC but it means she is only first turn effective whereas the Archon can often be effective in several turns. Yes I like the VB idea as well. It means they end up the same points cost as well.

It would be interesting to see how they vary survivability wise though. Like I said, she ignores 77% of successful wounds in CC which is good. Theoretically she needs to be wounded approximately 13 times to die. Whereas 6 wounds on the SF in CC should theoretically down it.

The big catch to my mind is the retinue setup - the Archon can work quite well getting by with just FNP and not sweating the Furious Charge - whereas that's a big deal for Lelith.

So, y'know, the Archon can lead things that *aren't* Wracks+Haem into combat, and therein lies the core usability (and also less need for a PGL - saving massive points, yadda-yadda).

I will admit this looks bemusing though, so I'm almost tempted to crunch some of the numbers and see their relative results assaulting an assortment of targets.

It is an interesting point that as you load out your Archon his parity in killing potential and prowess might make Lelith an overall better deal.

The way I have always wanted to try her is with a seer council with a doom/ fortune farseer and an enhance warlock. Doom makes up for her low strength very nicely, and the great thing about Lelith is that with the enhance warlock she now has WS and I 10. Think about that, she will strike at the same time as hammer of wrath plus, unlike with most models, she not only get a boost to weapon skill, but an extra attack as well. That's 12 attacks against MEQ on the charge. Plus from my reading of the FAQ she still gets the benefits of fortune since it says only Eldar units not Eldar models and she would be in an Eldar unit (I could be wrong about this though.) True they would have to foot slog it, but councils are tough enough to do it.
P.s. I think alot of people are overlooking her monster initiative. With it being the highest initiative now for sweeping advances those two extra points of initiative are a much bigger deal than they used to be.

mug7703 wrote:

This isn't true. Lelith has weapons that count as a Shardnet and Impaler and so gets +1A for 2 CCW.

Of course you're right, obvious mistake.

mug7703 wrote:

It would be interesting to see how they vary survivability wise though. Like I said, she ignores 77% of successful wounds in CC which is good. Theoretically she needs to be wounded approximately 13 times to die. Whereas 6 wounds on the SF in CC should theoretically down it.

Lenith certainly has the edge in survivability vs most things. She can make good use of Feel no Pain to further boost the comparison in her favor since by the time the Archon gets a Feel no Pain roll his protection is already gone. The Archon only does better vs Instant Death attacks really (and even then Lenith's higher ws and shardnet will likely keep her alive just as long if not longer vs melee Instant Death).

Massaen wrote:

Remember Lilith is WS9 so against most infantry is only hit on 5's as well.

She also has a nasty shooting attack - BS9 plasma grenades (that until FAQ'd ignore armour!)

These are great points that I'd overlooked.
I'm glad the Archon is potentially S9!

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

The way I have always wanted to try her is with a seer council with a doom/ fortune farseer and an enhance warlock.

This is a fantastic idea! People really wouldn't want to get into assault with this unit. Shame they're not scoring and have no grenades though.

Thor665 wrote:

The big catch to my mind is the retinue setup - the Archon can work quite well getting by with just FNP and not sweating the Furious Charge - whereas that's a big deal for Lelith.

So, y'know, the Archon can lead things that *aren't* Wracks+Haem into combat, and therein lies the core usability (and also less need for a PGL - saving massive points, yadda-yadda).

I will admit this looks bemusing though, so I'm almost tempted to crunch some of the numbers and see their relative results assaulting an assortment of targets.

This is true but lists can be build around whatever retinue you want. Wracks are a good scoring unit who are tough and can assault fairly well with 2 PTs and bring great benefits to the Archon. True it's nice to save money on the PGL but you only do that if he is with Wyches.

Please crunch the numbers if you're up for it! It would be very useful to see. But if you do, please include the FC or Doom Farseer factors for Lelith as I think it's a mistake to run her without mitigating her S3 weakness in some way.

Quote :

Shame they're not scoring and have no grenades though

Yep, Harlies are much better.

Azdrubael wrote:

Quote :

Shame they're not scoring and have no grenades though

Yep, Harlies are much better.

Hmmm...Lelith in an allied Eldar unit of harlies with a doom/fortune Seer? This could be ridiculous no? Shame there isn't a way to get a warlock in there unless Lelith was coming to the Eldar army as a DE ally.

Frankly, there is no need of Allied Eldar Harlies, you can take DE ones. What 10 Harlies with Lelith wont chew, doom will not change much.

Azdrubael wrote:

Frankly, there is no need of Allied Eldar Harlies, you can take DE ones. What 10 Harlies with Lelith wont chew, doom will not change much.

Really? They're that amazing? I was more thinking of a Seer casting fortune on them for survivability. I think this can only happen with units from the Eldar Codex so the Harlequin unit would have to be technically from the CWE codex for a Seer to legally cast fortune on them. It's a shame they can't be mounted in a transport which is why I think they'll die quite quickly to shooting without the buffs from a Farseer.

Azdrubael wrote:

Frankly, there is no need of Allied Eldar Harlies, you can take DE ones. What 10 Harlies with Lelith wont chew, doom will not change much.

True, and what else are you taking in that elites slot anyway? It won't be wracks, because they should always be troops, and everything else is too expensive to take more than one unit of anyway, with the exception of Trueborn, whose shooting output can be compensated for in the rest of the list. Lelith with hit and run would be ridiculously good fun, I was trying to make up my mind as to whether or not I should get her but thinking it's pretty much destined to happen now! Just come back round to harlies, as they do a lot of the things Incubi do but are more survivable with their ability to charge through cover as if it wasn't there, whilst getting a ridiculous save. And then just backflipping away again. Plus a Troupe Master buffs her leadership.

Between the Archon and Lelith, it comes down to personal taste, and whether or not you know what you'll be facing. A huskblade Archon is going to have just as tough a time wounding marines as Lelith if he gets an unfavourable drugs roll, and Lelith will always have more attacks than him. Her not having any drugs won't make much difference if he gains the ability to roll three dice to make a move he can re-roll with fleet anyway, for example. There are only two really useful rolls for the Archon too, maybe three, as everything else is either useless or makes him better at something he's already really good at.

mug7703 wrote:

Really? They're that amazing? I was more thinking of a Seer casting fortune on them for survivability. I think this can only happen with units from the Eldar Codex so the Harlequin unit would have to be technically from the CWE codex for a Seer to legally cast fortune on them. It's a shame they can't be mounted in a transport which is why I think they'll die quite quickly to shooting without the buffs from a Farseer.

Rending, furious charge, hit and run, stealth and shrouded. They will win against pretty much anything by themselves, without help from a Farseer, and with Lelith they'll be nigh on unstoppable.

Please use the Edit button in future. Thanks. - Mush

Remember the Harlies will be walking - no raider so please take that into consideration. I personally feel the raider is needed.

Absolutely not. Raider will make this target idefinately more vulnerable.

Thats 400 points worth of passengers.

I like this archon config: djinn blade lance, shadow field, haywire grenades, soul trap ... maybe combat drugs too if I can afford them.

So 125 points (without drugs) for 7 S4 Ap3 attacks on the charge

@Mr Believer. You make a good case for Harlies. Definitely seems like an interesting tactic. Something I'd like to try sometime. I hope they make it up the field to CC effectively though.

Question. The harlies have the dance of death rule that gives them furious charge and hit and run. Since the name of the rule is dance of death not hit and run or furious charge does it still confer those two rules on characters that joint the unit?

Septimus wrote:

djinn blade lance

Wouldn't the Djinn Blade fall under the "Unusual Power Weapon" section? If it does then I don't believe it can be a Power Lance.

No, the djinn blade is a power weapon with +2 attacks. A power weapon is defined in the rulebook as being either a sword, maul, axe or lance.

And right after that section it goes on to say:
"If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

The Djinn blade most certainly does have its own unique close combat rules which seems to clearly indicate that it is defined as an AP3 weapon (ie a power sword) and does not give it the Sword/Axe/Mace/Lance option.

Where do you get the idea that a melee weapon is automatically a sword? It most certainly does not have it's own unique special rules, only +2 "normal" attacks as per weapon type.

According to the dex a djin blade is a power weapon - the rules you refer to as "special abilities" are e.g.: a lightning claw allows you to re-roll to wound ... because it's a claw.

A djin blade can be any type of power weapon, the +2 attacks are not tied to a specific type of weapon unlike the special abilities confered to a thunderhammer (Initiative 1 and concussive because it's a hammer), lightning claws etc. - it's just that, +2 attacks. Nothing "special" about those attacks in any way, except "power" but what kind of "power" does depend on what the weapon looks like according to the rulebook as you have to model it.

Furthermore, it clearly states in the FAQ that you do get a bonus attack for having an additional melee weapon (or pistol). A weapon classified as having a unique ability tied to a given weapon type does not get that bonus attack unless paired with another special abilities weapon, e.g. a pair of lightning claws gives you +1 attack but you would not get that bonus attack if you only have one claw because the claw is a special abilities weapon type.

I have created a Djin Blade and Power Weapon Types topic in the rules section. I would appreciate if your carry on any further discussion regarding the djin blade/power weapon types there.

Thank you