RApid Fire Tournament List (1750)

Well I'm heading of to Rapid Fire, courtesy of Stirling Wargamers, this weekend. It's a 1750 point 6 game event which is usually a whole load of fun competitive games. There is no allies or fortifications allowed, which gets rid of the SW/IG combo of doom for a start. Missions are slight varients of the main rulebook ones but nothing so far flung as too make a big difference.

Heres what I'm running with, any thoughts?

HQ
1 Baron Sathonyx @ 105 Pts

Elite
4 Kabalite Trueborn @ 191 Pts
4 Blasters, Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon; Night Shields

Troops
5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon; Night Shields

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon; Night Shields

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon; Night Shields

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon; Night Shields


10 Kabalite Warriors @ 170 Pts
1 Raider @ [80] Pts: Dark Lance (x1); Splinter Racks; Night Shields

10 Kabalite Warriors @ 170 Pts
1 Raider @ [80] Pts: Dark Lance (x1); Splinter Racks; Night Shields

Fast Attack

Beast Pack @ 228 Pts
4 Beastmasters: 10 Khymerae: 4 Razorwing Flocks

Heavy Support
1 Ravager @ 115 Pts: Dark Lance (x3); Night Shields

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts: Dark Lance (x3); Night Shields

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts: Dark Lance (x3); Night Shields

I've gone for the ignoring flyers approach, meaning if I run into scythe or storm raven spam then I'm pretty much done in. However I've played against lists with 3 or 4 flyers and can generally out manouvre them enough to either force them into hover mode or make them irrelevant.

I'll try and get some pics and reports from the weekend, but I usually end up so engrossed in the games that I forget to get many pics.

I thought about attending Rapid Fire (I finished 2nd last with my Salamanders 3 years ago ha!) but couldn't due to the 2 day nature. I feel pretty negatively about the no allies/forts thing as well but thats another discussion.

This is a very solid list. Ticks a lot of boxes, and although I would keep roughly the backbone of your army the same, I would have 2 x 8 man squads of wyches in the raiders with haywires, then kabalites or even troops wracks in the venoms. I have experimented with splinter rack warrior raiders and find them underwhelming for their pts. A 3 man unit of trueborn with 2 SC's in a venom offers the same threat from further. Been to a few tournaments recently and more footsloggers is becoming more common, so perhaps one of your ravagers to disintegrators??

I do like the shootiness of the list though, backed up by one hefty unit of beasts.

Good luck. I suspect you'll do rather well

I agree with the aforementioned tips; Splinter Cannon Trueborn and 1 Dissie Ravager are nice addition in 6th ed, esp as most cover saves are 5+ but apart from that your list is great.

I love Beasts this addition

Thanks for the input, the dissie ravager I've thought about on and off, I've got a final practice game tonight so I'll give it a run out.
The splinter cannon trueborn I've never thought about but I can see the merits of them.,
The only thing I would be concerned about is that if I replace my blasterborn unit and ravager with the dissie ravager and splinter cannon TB it takes away 7 blaster and lance weapons. Could the list cope without them. Also note the Blasterborn have haywire grenades on them for a bit more AT duties. Haywire grenades on them are superb at taking off that last HP on the vehicle they didn't quite manage to destroy with shooting.

I'd like to put some wracks in there as troops but then I'd need to get a heami for them to count as troops, don't know where I'd get the points for that.

Had a couple of practice games last night which both went very well against a Dark Angels list. Not reading too much into it as it was a small elite army, which we should be able to deal with. His list was, Sammy, Libby, 2 bike squads with MM attack bikes, 10 terminators and 2 vindicators.

What it did show however that venoms can quite comfortably deal with T5 bikes and also terminators, so I have decided not to run with the disintegrator ravager and keep the 3 lance ones in. I had a look at the points I was spending on nightshields and splinter racks (120) after a bit of advice from Mike Marlow over at Death or Glory and shuffled a couple of things around to create some wiggle room to come up with the following.

Basically I've stripped all vehicle upgrades apart from the extra splinter cannon on the venoms and dropped 1 blaster born to enable me to get 2 units of 3 blasterborn and give 1 wych unit a shardnet and impaler

This gives me 6 venoms 2 raiders and 3 ravagers, with 11 lances, 6 blasters and 72 splinter cannon shots. Every unit can take down a vehicle and apart from the ravagers each unit can deal with infantry also.

The beast unit provides a must deal with unit and due to the 10 Khymera can absorb a massive amount of firepower. Stealth and move through cover really help this unit get into a position where they must be dealt with. The flocks provide some nice AP 2 rending when they hit as well.


HQ
1 Baron Sathonyx @ 105 Pts

Elite
3 Kabalite Trueborn @ 146 Pts
3 Blasters
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon

3 Kabalite Trueborn @ 146 Pts
3 Blasters
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon

Troops
5 Wyches @ 125 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon

5 Wyches @ 125 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon

5 Wyches @ 125 Pts
Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Haywire Grenades, Shardnet and Impaler
1 Venom @ [75] Pts: 2 Splinter Cannon



10 Kabalite Warriors @ 150 Pts
1 Raider @ [80] Pts: Dark Lance (x1)

10 Kabalite Warriors @ 150 Pts
1 Raider @ [80] Pts: Dark Lance (x1)

Fast Attack

Beast Pack @ 228 Pts
4 Beastmasters: 10 Khymerae: 4 Razorwing Flocks

Heavy Support
1 Ravager @ 115 Pts: Dark Lance (x3)

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts: Dark Lance (x3)

1 Ravager @ 115 Pts: Dark Lance (x3)

Looking forward to capturing plenty of souls at the weekend

Glancing at the Dissies vs Venom discussion makes me think that the Dissie Ravager isn't that necessary if you already intend on taking a bunch of Venoms, and 72 poisoned shots is definitely a good number to have

I don't know how useful advice is this close to your tournament, but I figure you might be more appreciative of competitive suggestions, so I hope this is of some help:

FYI your points are incorrect. Ravagers are 105, 2-Cannon Venoms are 65. That might just be a typo though, I didn't count.

The ability of all Vehicles to flat-out in 6th is a low blow to fast skimmers. I think one of the few remaining benefits of Dark Eldar vehicles is the ability to move 12" and line up a shot from 30-36" away without granting cover. I think Venoms waste that; Disintegrators end up doing more damage to anything with a 4+ (Necrons, Dire Avengers, Henchmen), a 3+ (ANY Marines, Immortals) or a 2+ save. So everyone but Orks and Tyranids (IG are in Chimeras, who fear Disintegrators at side armor) is hurt more by Raiders with Disintegrators.

Also, while you technically pay for the second cannon, you're forced to take a Flickerfield, which is now good for all of one Turn. Granted, it's the most important one, but you get an extra hull point on the Raider, and they can give each other cover more easily now. Finally, with the changes to shooting out of vehicles, Dark Lances are less crucial, and having every vehicle with 3 BS4 shots is nice. If possible, I'd switch as many Venoms for Disintegrator Raiders as possible. The Ravagers with 3 Dark Lances being better than 3 Disintegrators has nothing to do with Venoms vs Disintegrator Raiders, and everything to do with the fact that it's a more efficient way to get Dark Lances than 3 Raiders, or Trueborn/Scourges.

Also, I think Warriors have a slim advantage over Wyches in that while they both die too easily, Warriors can sit in cover and shoot, whereas Wyches need to be in assault where they'll likely die after losing combat, or blow up some tanks/dreads and then get shot in the open and not claim an objective.

But if you must take them, I think your squad sizes are backward. You have 20 of each, Warriors should be 4x5 because they lose no firepower that way but can be in more places, and at least the Wyches don't die to a pair of Multi-lasers or Heavy Bolters shooting them if there's 10. 10 of them also have a much better chance against 5 Marines than 5 do.

Finally, what is the Shardnet/Impaler doing? I mean, I know its rules. But how does it help? If you're running Wyches, why not take a pair of Grisly Trophies on their Raiders? Without being able to cut WS in half, Wyches struggle to win combat res with their new book, even if you make a lot of 4+ invuln saves. Don't let rolling the wrong Combat Drugs lose the game for you; having the ability to re-roll your Ld test is even better than an unarmed Hekatrix.

If you can switch all your Venoms for Raiders, and are willing? Assuming your points are correct, you save 30 points; that's Torment Launchers for the Wych Raiders, and a Hekatrix with a Power Axe. Yeah, you lose Initiative 6, but you get 4 Strength 4 AP2 attacks on the charge, which is essentially a half-price Agoniser - you have plenty of Initiative 6 attacks anyway.

These are my suggestions. I wish you the best of luck!

Thanks for the thoughts.

Points for ravagers and venoms was a copy/paste editing error. I've checked the list for points and it comes to 1750.

I don't have the disintegrator raiders to do the swap so I'm stuck with the venoms. However I'm not so sure about the damage comparison. say 6 venoms v 6 dissie raiders against T4, 3+ sv models. No cover saves
Venom: 72 shots, 48 hits, 24 wounds, 8 kills
Raiders: 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8 kills

With cover saves the venom becomes even more effective. Granted it can't hurt vehices, but thats why there is an abundance of haywire grenades and dark light in the list.

The rest of your comments are actuallly how I used to run my warriors/wyches when the codex first came out. I unfortunately never found the 5 man warrior squad to my liking, but I think that was because I was using it for AT with the blaster shot.
I run the wych squads as AT now. Zoom up, plant the grenades and watch something pop. I really don't intend them to be in combat, unless they assault something first to draw overwatch, before the beast squad piles in.

It's interesting to see how someone else would run the same models in a different set up, thanks for the ideas.

+1 for mostly what Agahnim said, except for the venom verses dissie raider debate. Against 4+ saves the venom is supperior (2 wounds for both T3 and T4) than a dissie raider (1.666 wounds T3 and 1.334 wounds against T4 without coversaves). And while I will agree going through armor is a huge boon for the dissie (as it takes a factor out of the math equation). Even against T4 3+ they are the same (1.332 wounds for the venom, and 1.334 for the dissie). The only place the dissie is supperior is against anything 2+ save and against T3 3+ save (.664 wounds for the venom against 2+ save, and 1.334 against T4 2+ for the dissie) I believe the damage potential of the venom outway's that factor. The venom can at most kill 12 people, the dissie can only at most kill 3. I will admit though if you are looking for points to drop though, replacing a venom with a dissie raider is an quick way to find those 5 points.

It all comes down to personal preference tbh...

As for the list, what does the 10 man warrior squads bring? you didnt even take splinter racks, which I find is a must if you want to run that many naked warriors (atleast then you get some decent damage output compared to a venom, which is their major AI competitior)

I think the difference is more pronounced here because you can use the points here.

Raiders circumnavigate cover to kill Marines more reliably (it involves Caluclus, and if Shadows prefers I can explain this to him by PM or during some sort of Chaos/Nurgle zombie event). It's not that the average MEQ wounds differ, it's that the odds of hitting that average are different - we're talking 2nd order Mathhammer here, frail hearts need not apply. But this is a negligible difference.

Disintegrators matter vs Terminators who don't have Storm Shields (so only GK assuming we're talking 100% optimized) and sort of matter to Obliterators/Chaos Terminators who don't have Mark of Tzeentch. This is mitigated by never having to move to get a 5+ save.

A smaller profile is worth the extra hull point. They are more or less equal, to the point that if this was a simple case of rushing to prep for a tournament, the extra 5 points each would be mostly irrelevant.

Except it's not that simple. You need those points to make the Wyches decent and overpriced vs downright dysfunctional. Or to take the splinter racks Shadows Revenge suggests, which would be terrific and the better option only if you're willing to replace the Wyches with some Warriors who are better hiding in cover with guns. So where do those 30 points come from? Either you lose Blasters on your 5-man warriors, or you downgrade to Raiders.

Well I'll do a bit of a write up in the raids section later on but overall I was very pleased with how it went.
I ended up 5th out of 32 with 4 wins and 2 losses. I only lost KP games and tabled 3 opponents.

There was some time shenanigans in the last game that cost me the win there against a horde orc player. He didn't want to play T5 despite there being 15 minutes left because the TO had called not to start another game turn about 30 seconds earlier. Several people watching our game gave him a hard time for this as it was obvious I would have been very close to tabling him in another round of shooting. I lost 6-5 on KP's but he had several units with only a few models left so with 5 venoms, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders and 20 warriors all within firing range, I am confident that the result would have been very different. He was honest enough to admit to all around that he was lucky to have won because we ran out of time.

The TO called me over after the awards and said he had been made aware of what happened and confirmed that if the game had been played out and I had won it, I would have finished in 2nd place. I was given a ticket for free entry to next years event which was part o fthe 2nd place prize.

The list worked as I thought it would. Only issue was the lack of vehicles present. I only faced 1 mechanised list, 2 with a couple of flyers (necrons and CSM, helldrakes are insane), all foot GK's, Tzeentch deamons and the horde orcs.

This meant my wyches had very little to do except against the mech list where the wrecked 2 dreads and a pred. The 10 man warriors did what I wanted, sat at the back on objectives and fired off some splinter shots when needed, there was too many other priorities in the list for people to deal with them. I'll be thinking about my troops selections and balance for the next list.

Venoms every time over disintegrator raiders for me, the sheer amount of damage they pump out was a mojor factor all weekend.

That was good of your TO, and very responsible. It's obnoxious seeing people slow play just because there's no chess clock, or seeing TOs who are too inexperienced to do something and then use nepotism or deflection as an excuse. It's always heartening for me to hear about the rare exceptions like him.

Sadly, I got into this game with a Wych cult and... they totally failed that 4++ against the nerf bat. I tried them again now that everyone's bringing big squads of Marines, and mech is for for firepower and utlity at the expense of durability... nope, still nothing. Beasts all the way, it seems - though I've had some (not much) luck cleaning up big marines/terminators with Incubi.

It's a good idea to finish off units though - I've seen so many games lost because someone wasn't thinking clearly and left a crippled unit alive, or ignored an easy kill to get a big psychological threat off their mind. While the extra cost of the Venoms does add up having them in bigger numbers is the secret to the 9 Venom list's success - when you can reliably wipe out an entire infantry squad a turn it's easier not to leave wounded enemies to limp away alive.

Good luck balancing the troops (the big issue of playing DE to win), and hey! A hearty congratulations on your success! (is there an applause smiley?)