Dark Eldars in tournaments

tlronin wrote:

It's worth mentioning though we practiced with 1000 pts on a smaller table so we could both get a feeling for the core of our army.

That's your problem even at 1000 points 4x4 board is a nightmare for DE. I would only ever play 500pts on a 4x4 board with DE.

More than any other army we need space to manoeuvre.

Almost all my games with this guy are on a 4x4 board. But I didn't want to whine and wanted to show sportmanship. Plus I have the strong urge to beat him with my DE in the poorest conditions, because I believe it must be possible.

Is this a common notion that 4x4 is not a good thing for the Dark Kin?

In my experience Dark Eldar can get by with no line of sight blocking terrain. But to restrict the board to 2/3rds of it's size is a big ask.

Agreed, on such a small board there's nowhere to hide from the GK medium-range stuff - which you can do far more easily on a proper sized board. The game is heavily slanted in your opponent's favour even before lists are chosen.

I discussed this with him. He's not a jerk, but last evening I liked him a little less (lol). He said that 4x4 for 1000 pts battles is a common tournament rule. So he adviced me to either play another army, or avoid playing 1000 pts tournaments. He apologized for the harshness, but he can't change the tournamentscene. It is the way it is.

We all know I' ll never give up on my DE, so I' ll have to opt for option 2.

tlronin wrote:

Well, I have been trying to make the cheesiest lists to win tournaments. Even proxied Eldar allies. If he gets 1st turn, then I know for sure it's over. He sees everything. Everything is in range. Still get shot off the table. 5+ coversaves (or flicker saves) are not enough against IG or GK.

Hehe, tryed my cheese venomspam list? I do very well with it.

Anyway, was thinking of trying a less cheese list next turnement. As I have won all in 6th ed. Going to one soon, and are thinking about bringing; Incubi, Drazher, Reavers, Talos, Scourges etc. See if I actually can pull off a win with that. Actually did have a few good friendly games with that list...

@Darklight: Sort of. With all due respect, yours is not the only Venom spam list around. I've been experimenting with MSU Dakka style DE list for a long time now (5 Warriors with a blaster in a Venom + extra SC * 3 or 4/triple Ravagers/same old same really). Just not against the top players of the Dutch tournament scene. And in my humble opinion I'm not a terrible 40k player. But this guy just wipes my army in 2 turns. Simply by shooting. It sucks! But maybe the answer is as simple as stop playing 4x4 tables, I dunno... Do you play 4x4 a lot Darklight?

tlronin wrote:

@Darklight: Sort of. With all due respect, yours is not the only Venom spam list around. I've been experimenting with MSU Dakka style DE list for a long time now (5 Warriors with a blaster in a Venom + extra SC * 3 or 4/triple Ravagers/same old same really). Just not against the top players of the Dutch tournament scene. And in my humble opinion I'm not a terrible 40k player. But this guy just wipes my army in 2 turns. Simply by shooting. It sucks! But maybe the answer is as simple as stop playing 4x4 tables, I dunno... Do you play 4x4 a lot Darklight?

Hehe ofc its not

anyway no i dont play 4x4. Always 4x6.
That might be a good solution. I can understand the frustration tho.

What does ofc mean?

ups. ofcourse... anyway I play alot against the same GK list you said there, lucky for me that players is quite new to the game... but if I get to start first I have no problems against him, playing 2. might make some troubles at times.

GK are a hassel for us to play against tho, need that BLOS in the middle of the board imo

4x4 board, 1000pts, screams triple talos to me, they like small boards and are hard to deal with at such a low points level:

3 x Talos, twinlinked liquifier, twinlinked splinter cannons - 315pts

That still leaves you room for other goodies.

No point taking ravagers if their's no cover or space to manoeuvre.

EDIT: Once he looses to that I'm sure the most common Dutch Tournament boards will become 6x4 again.

Interesting topic.

I regulary take my DE to tournaments. And have won some minor events including the one Nomic mentioned afore. I too played the same cronair as he did and shot it of the board even with my two Jets in reserves. short report and my list here: Batrep

DE have some bad match ups for sure. Chaos ain't one of them. Even with Hell turkies. Just shoot everything else off the board and avoid the flyers as best as you can. MSU is the winning consept here. Almost all that DE has is an easy kill for the opponent execpt 20+ target simultaneously.

DE are presumed so bad that nobody is prepared to take on them all though that has changed a bit in my gaming group. And even at tournaments people tend to get their target priorities wrong.

Quote :

EDIT: Once he looses to that I'm sure the most common Dutch Tournament boards will become 6x4 again. Smile

Tlronin, what list is your opponent using that is giving you so much trouble?

Out of the top of his head, because he's in Berlin (Germany) right now:

GK
1x Coteaz
1x10 interceptors
4x3 warriors w/ psyback (2x2 flamers)
2x psyfledread

IG
1x CCS w/ 4 plasmaguns in chimera
2x10 veterans w/ 3 flamers in chimera
1x PCS w/ 4 flamers
2x9 Guardsman w/ autocannon
1x vendetta
1x medusa
1x manticore

Edit: I'm missing transports in his GK list? He had these transports which look like Razorbacks I guess and I think Heavy Bolters on 'm.

I'll take a proper look at the list later but it seems over 1000 points at first glance!

EDIT - Never mind, I took it as a single list including IG allies. As 2 separate lists it's probably okay.

tlronin wrote:

GK
1x Coteaz
1x10 interceptors
4x3 warriors w/ psyback (2x2 flamers)
2x psyfledread

IG
1x CCS w/ 4 plasmaguns in chimera
2x10 veterans w/ 3 flamers in chimera
1x PCS w/ 4 flamers
2x9 Guardsman w/ autocannon
1x vendetta
1x medusa
1x manticore

Sounds like a fun challenge. Recently I have been playing a lot of 1000pt games, as a friend is getting back into 40k. Tell you what next week I'll try and get two games in against those lists at my local on a 4x4 board and put up two reports (going second, no night fight on first turn, 5 turn game).

How many pieces of area terrain are there generally? What size are they? What mission rules are used? Warlord traits? Night fight?

Not promising I'll do well, but it will make for an interesting discussion, none the less, and might help point you in the right direction (or not).

tlronin wrote:

Edit: I'm missing transports in his GK list? He had these transports which look like Razorbacks I guess and I think Heavy Bolters on 'm.

That's what the psybacks are.

@Count: He doesn't strike me as a guy who would cheat or doesn't know his points, so I'm blaming it on his memory right now... Maybe I can get more detailed lists when he's back, but just imagine the nastiest cheesiest tournament lists and you won't be far off. Atleast he admits himself he's a tourny cheesemonger lol...

@Mush: That would be great! If you could do that... Sounds awesome.
- Terrain; Basically no LOS blocking terrain. If it blocks LOS (rockformations) it's mostly too low to hide a skimmer behind and if the skimmer can be hidden it's too small to cover all angles. All pieces are area terrain. Some have tiny ruines on them. Think max 6 to 8 pieces of these types of terrain. Some were 6" by 6", some 6" by 4" and some 4" by 2". Think in that order of size.
- We played either Big Guns Never Tire or The Scouring (objective bases missions like that). We avoided The Relic.
- With Warlord Traits
- Usually I was unable to throw Night Fighting, it's a curse (so I suggest to play without)
- Usually I didn't get first turn

As for the psybacks, goes to show how far my knowledge goes about anything non-Xenos (i'm a xenos lover)

tlronin wrote:

That would be great! If you could do that... Sounds awesome.

I'll see what I can do. Should be fun. Will you be able to get his exact lists next week?

The GK list looks a bit short on points but it's possible the Interceptors and Dreads have some upgrades or something.

I can imagine night lights and psybolts on all of the vehicles.

If I recall correctly he indeed had something to negate night fighting like a searchlight and he had psybolts indeed.

I'll ask him for his exact lists, I hope he has them on paper or digital.

tlronin a few more questions. Do you play with a set number of objectives? Are they in set positions? As he tends to go first what deployment does he like to use?

No set objectives. We throw a dice as per the rules of the mission.
No set positions. We throw a D6 to determine who places an objective first as per the rules (oddly I win that roll-off a lot)
He spreads out his force denying me any place to be save from his shooting really. He's a shooty player, almost never assaults. Only saw him do it with his 'shunting' GK unit.

I can't tell from the wording you used, but if he assaulted you directly after shunting he is playing it wrong. You can shoot but never assault after a shunt. And if he did that he's playing it wrong on purpose because IIRC the rules are very clear on that.

Small tables and low amount of terrain generally punish DE. This obviously becomes a bigger issue the more cheese your opponent likes to bring and looking at those lists he likes to bring a lot. Having very limited experience in a tournament setting like that the only thing I can suggest that will definitely benefit you is trying to get a bigger table with more terrain. Look for something like the NOVA style. They use a very symmetric table setup with a healthy amount of terrain that also blocks LOS effectively.

@Dogmar: Oh no, he didn't assault right after the shunt move. He never cheats. He has too much honour for that. But he cheeses though... His mindset is all tournament and nothing else. I Think I'll suggest playing with 1750 pts armies and I'll bring my own terrain which is much nicer than his.