Hellion Blob vs Beastmaster Pack

For my 1500 point army im not sure wheher to use hellions or beastmasters as a fun assault unit. Anti infantry and armor as well as flyers are covered with the use of venoms, truborn, ravagers an void ravens. Both units will be run with the Baron to give them a 4+ cover save at all times. The choices are:

14 hellions, helliarch with agonizer
Helliarch is there to accept any unwanted challenges for the Baron

5 Beast master
4 razorwing flocks
10 khymera
Clawed fiend

5 Beast master
6 razorwing flocks
10 khymera

5 beastmasters
6 razorwing flocks
5 khymera
Clawed fiend

Which one is best? Why? What is the most competitive in addition to being relatively fun?

Well, that's not... Uhm... nice (such an odd word)? Nobody replied yet.

Why do you think the Baron grants a 4+ coversave at all times?

I don't have the codex on me right now, but do you need 5 beastmasters in all 3 builds to maximize on the beasties? 'Cause if you could drop a beastmaster I would. The less beastmasters you have the more point efficient the unit becomes.

Having said that I think a mix like option 1 and 3 seem best in my humble opinion because can soak up hits with the inv saves of the khymerae's, then soakd up close combat wounds with the razorwings and pack a punch with the fiend. But i don't have that much experience with them to be able to tell which combo would be most efficient.

Personally I think the beast squad is better, they have less shooting but are less reliant on cover saves and are better in combat (with some invul saves and some rending)

I run my Baron with 10 Khymera and 4 Razorwing Flocks and they are one of my favorite units

Beasts are way faster than Hellions. And more durable. I wouldn't bother with clawed fiend. I personally run 4 razorwing flocks and 7 to 10 khymerae depending on the points. Baron is a must for beast pack. Sometimes I take venom blade for one of the BM but thats usually wasted points.

I take them both. The beasts run with the Baron as a forward pressure unit that gets in people face. I run the hellions as troops in groups of six. They hang out in cover in the mid field trying to shoot stuff (12 poison shots isn't bad) and then grab objectives later in the game. Since you should have the Baron with your beasts, and the baron bakes hellions into troops, it makes sense to bring some hellions to grab objectives.

RB

I think if you'll read some threads on two units you'll find that the consensus is that the various beasts combinations pack more cc punch. I'll try to give you some food for thought from a different approach.

The Hellions are more than capable of tackling your average infantry unit by shooting their splinter pods and then following up with a charge. With their strength 4 attacks you can even glance AV 10 vehicles to death. You may even get a decent combat drugs roll giving them a boost to their cc potential.

Here's the gist of what I want to share. At GW pricing in USD three boxes of Hellions will cost you $75.

Just the 5 Beastmasters you are considering will cost you just under $100. The ten Khymerae, four Razorwings, and Clawed Fiend will add another $190 to the price of purchase. Unless you have a large gaming budget or can find suitable alternative models I'd recommend the Hellions.

I've bought two boxes of Hellions and they've done well enough for me and I've been able to use some of their spare bits with the other box sets to add a little variety in those units.

You can also convert beast packs pretty easy. Hellions for the beast masters and khymerae from vampire counts minions of your choice. Razor wings are a bit more tricky but some bitz and green stuff should get the job done.
Id go with beasts personally since we already have enough shooting and lack durable assault units.

On a completely different topic, how would you use this 340 to 370 point unit including an hq as well as a decent assault unit/ fast attack unit? Something maybe on the lines of Reavers or Scourge. The beast masters seem to be a little too much on the wallet for me.

The Khymerae give the unit something sorely lacking in our army, a save. The Clawed Fiend and the Razorwing Flocks have multiple wounds which extends the life of the unit. So taken together the beasts are quite resilient for a Dark Eldar unit. I think most folks would choose a mix of Khymerae and Razorwings to create a utilitarian cc unit. The Khymerae for the save and the Razorwings for the rending rule. You can expect to put a good thumping on anything short of the heaviest of vehicles.

Ya beasts all the way, hellions arent even in the same league.

Ive done quite a bit of theory hammer and less playtesting with various beastpack configurations lately. My opinion is that, if you can count on a healthy amount of terrain, smaller packs are better off with only flocks and in multiples, while larger packs are better mixed and as singles.
Reason is smaller packs can more reliably put all/most of their models in cover, at which point the flocks are better khymera. However with larger unit sizes the chances of granting cover to large numbers of RW is greatly decreased so khymera become much more attractive. Also the baron really likes larger packs, but I dont use him so that doesnt figure into my approach.

At the moment im really only messing with 2 variations that I then adjust slightly depending on available pts:

All flocks pack:
3 bm, 6 flocks- 126 pts. This unit I will take in pairs and so far I feel this is the better build (excluding baron) but im still testing alternatives.

mixed pack:
3-4 bm, 2-4 flocks, 10 khymera- 186-228 pts. This unit I will only take one of.



A big consideration with beastpacks is opposing anti tank. Khymera really discourage anti tank fire on your beast unit, which to me is contra to one of the main reasons to run them in the first place. I WANT high strength firepower directed their way, at which point ill go to ground with disposable sized units.

Facing 10 man units of cron scarabs is what actually got me thinking of running straight flocks. Our unit is all around better but if you've ever had 1 or even 2 x 10 scarabs coming at you its very very annoying and seriously skews your target priorities.

The only time I would ever go to ground is when camping an objective. I mean no offense brom. But I think not only at the points cost, but we need EVERY unit we have to get to their objective as quick as possible. I made the mistake of putting my wracks on the ground once after they had blown up mid field in the raider. Yeah, should have ran and ran. They got picked apart. You go to ground, next turn get up, next turn move. Essentially for saving that unit, you are rendering them useless for 2 turns. I would rather take my chances getting shot at making saves or not, soaking up fire and hopefully tying up a unit in CQC

Thing is with a small beast pack of 4 razorwings and 2 masters going to ground isn't a problem. As you will most likely be in a position to threaten several units in the middle of the board when your unit stops going to ground (12" move, 2d6" fleet charge that ignores terrain). Meaning you opponent has to keep pouring S6-7-8 shots into your beasts in order to keep you suppressed or risk being assaulted next turn, that's shots that are not being directed at your transports. A real bargain for 84pts.

Ya what mush said. Dont get me wrong its not something I use that often but in the right context its insanely frustrating. If my beast unit of 130 or less pts or anything for that matter is faced with annihilation im gonna go to ground. Period. This is also where 45 pt warrior units in the far far backfield are freaking gold. 2-3+ cover saves make them into super cheap terminators. Ive had a single warrior unit survive 2 night scythes firepower and score an objective with 1 model left at games end. Marine players especially arent really savvy on this type of approach.

I haven't had the pleasure of running a beast pack yet. Models too expensive and I don't like proxys. However I was not aware they ignored terrain. Definitely makes more sense there. Never really thought about it like that. I'm planning on getting a decent sized squad for starters real soon, I might try that out. You could really just send those out first as bait I guess with that tactic.

Besides hearing about the beastmasters standing head and shoulder over hellions i have narrowed my options down to three choices.

The hellions with the Baron
6 reavers with 2 heatlances and a haemonculus with some wyches/ wracks 2 liquifiers in a raider
Archon with wyches in a raider and 5 scourge with 2 heatlances

As mentioned before, anti tank and infantry are taken care of. Additionally, you could give more examples of my previous questions which most of you have not seen due to the size of the comment. I do apologize.

What's the most fun? Reaver by far, so much flexibility, they pretty much use every rule in the book. They take a fair bit of getting used to. But it's worth it.

And of course the Baron is Lord Hellion not Lord of the Beasts (isn't that Tarzan?) which may or may not matter to you...

*Personal opinion warning*

...and Hellions look cool and beasts look daft

Khymera are the best cc unit in the codex, they perform better than incubi thanks to the rending frankly and with their invulnerable saves they last longer too.

Taking Razorwings only is dumb, the offensive power is there, but defensive isn't, making this only a half good unit. What's the problem with razorwings? Insta death, plenty of T3 weapons, the unit is small, dangerous and very easy to kill with any big gun.

Razorwings should always come with a good amount of Khymera, 10 is just perfect. 5 and less is not recommended. Why? 2-3 casualties are natural. On 5, that means you almost have no Khymera, on 10 that's no big deal. Same problem as having rozorwings only, you can kill off the flocks with big guns. Taking out 10 khymera is hard and certainly not worth the attempt, you really can't afford to let masses of skimmers armed with anti tanks weapons alive.

Khymera alone work, I know a guy who ran 25 Khymera, trust me, this units inflicted so much damage and it was unkillable. Just so many ignore or forget a Kymera have excellent cc stats. No rending, but their basic attacks hurt a lot and their invuln save keeps them alive.

2-6 flocks are the most common ,but even 2 flocks inflict quite a lot of damage, it's all a luck thing, but flocks have plenty of attacks and you usually get some rending attacks.

Clawed fiends are underestimated frankly. Their high S and good number of attacks are quite gpod vs a lot of things, i'll gladly charge most vehicles with a unit containing Khymera and a clawed fiend. A CF with a couple of wounds lost is a very sure tank killer. Most tanks have back armor of 10, with the sheer number of attacks you can destroy it pretty easily.


Helions are ok, I fiend the Beast themselves cooler, the Khymera are just so cool and well made, much cooler than hellions, the CW is also pretty cool, the razorwings are little less detailed, but seeing them in a flock still is pretty cool.


Hellions have an OK firepower, but you need to get pretty close to use it, in cc they're decent, but nothing exagerated. The big weakness of this unit is their save and the fact that they have one wound. Khymera have their invulnerable save, raozrwings and clawed fiends have multiple wounds to survive.
A heliion squad is still very fragile and certainly not partcilarly good cc or shooty unit.
Hellions are something in between warriors and wych, average at both.

A beast squad with Khymera and razorwings is an absolute deathstar unit. A monster cc unit and very hard to kill with any weapon. The worst part on this unit is their speed, they get into cc just so fast without any transport.


BTW on reavers, the sqaud is good, but too fragile to my taste. They are my second favorite Fast attack after beasts, Hellions & scourges are somewhat of a tie on third place.

Khain mor- I agree with some of your points but I take issue with blanket statements like :

Quote :

Taking Razorwings only is dumb, the offensive power is there, but defensive isn't, making this only a half good unit. What's the problem with razorwings? Insta death, plenty of T3 weapons, the unit is small, dangerous and very easy to kill with any big gun.

Razorwings should always come with a good amount of Khymera, 10 is just perfect. 5 and less is not recommended. Why? 2-3 casualties are natural. On 5, that means you almost have no Khymera, on 10 that's no big deal. Same problem as having rozorwings only, you can kill off the flocks with big guns. Taking out 10 khymera is hard and certainly not worth the attempt, you really can't afford to let masses of skimmers armed with anti tanks weapons alive.

Unit size and role, opponent, terrain, army compositions, to baron or not are all things that factor in. Stating there is only one best build is rarely going to be accurate.

If your facing massed anti infantry khymera wont last as long. If your facing massed AT flocks wont. We all know which is more common in any given army.

What is the units purpose and are you running one or multiples? If barons attached I agree a large mixed squad is probably ideal and then your army is largely built to accomodate that but the baron is only one approach.

If going cheap and multiple units packs can be designed to be disposable yet very durable to all but anti tank.. i.e. intended to draw fire. Khymera wont attrack anti tank from any competent player except as a last resort. Flocks draw AT like flies. Devs now have the hard choice of shooting what they were brought to hunt (ravagers/skimmers) or the super fast beasts that are going to kill them. Win/win.

Unit size also plays in. 25 models can never hug cover. 6-9 can.

Now all that aside and at the end of the day there is really one major issue that often gets forgotten.. It boils down to cost. Even considering instant death we are talking a 12 pt wound vs a 15 pt wound.
Thats worse case scenario.
If no instant death then we are talking about one 12 pt wound vs five 3 pt wounds. Heres a blanket statement khymera can never be cheaper than a 12 pt wound. Flocks are OFTEN a 3 pt wound. If you've ever stared down 10-20 scarabs swarms bearing down you know how hard they are to deal with. Same concept simply better unit (rending not swarms more wounds/base).

Meanwhile 12 pt beastmasters eat ID wounds from the front half as good as a khymera in the open and just as good with cover (obviously leaving at least one in the back).

I like khymera. I like mixed packs and I also like homogeneous beast packs. All have their place.

Flocks draw AT like flies. Not just big guns, any gun, thye hae T3, save 5. Lots of wounds, but still easy to kill. Pretty much shoot with anything at them and they're vulnerable. In cc the 5+ save also inflicts quite some wounds losses, khymera also protect in cc.

Amss infantry arent' much of a problem vs Khymera, mass infantry also mean several other things: low saves, low I. Kymera pack quite a punch all infantry, especially the weak ones. Wheather it's vs orcs, IG, nids troops, with the sheer number of attacks and their higher Init, they'll kill quite a lot and their invulnerable save will keep them alive a lot better than the usuaully sucky save most big masses of infantry posses. Same against shooting. With decent luck you can still survive pretty well vs masses of fire.

Quote :

Unit size also plays in. 25 models can never hug cover. 6-9 can.

Use common sence, as far as save, Khymera don't need cover, their save is better than a cover save. Blocking LOS is something else, but it still doesn't matter, this unit is very fast and it can ge tinto cc very fast. The only better save they can get is from a good fortification, but those are very rare and you can pretty much ignore those. Killing 25 +4 invuln save models is hard with normal luck, even with masses of guns.

The purpose of beast pack and Razorwing Flocks is to draw AT fire away from Venoms and Ravagers. If you use only Khymerae then all the bigger guns are pointed towards the other parts of your army.

Only secondary is the purpose for the herd to be an assault element that is very mobile and hard to avoid.

Quote :

The purpose of beast pack and Razorwing Flocks is to draw AT fire away from Venoms and Ravagers. If you use only Khymerae then all the bigger guns are pointed towards the other parts of your army.

Only secondary is the purpose for the herd to be an assault element that is very mobile and hard to avoid.

This exactly.

Quote :

Use common sence, as far as save, Khymera don't need cover, their save is better than a cover save. Blocking LOS is something else, but it still doesn't matter, this unit is very fast and it can ge tinto cc very fast. The only better save they can get is from a good fortification, but those are very rare and you can pretty much ignore those. Killing 25 +4 invuln save models is hard with normal luck, even with masses of guns.

Please dont be insulting especially when you didnt even spell 'sense' correctly.
I misread your post when I said that, my mistake, my impression was you were still talking of mixed squads. Thing is 25 khymera (30 models) is a massive footprint. Its also massively expensive for a LD 8 unit that can be spooked off the board 1st turn or tarpitted. IF baron is present its probably worthwhile since he overcomes those downsides. Without him id say not so much.

Now regarding armies without the baron, mine for example, im maxed on HS but I want additional "functional overlap" in that department. Not 18" ranged blasters, so instead I look to increase survivability of my ravagers while taking elements that overlap as (light) AT but more importantly will draw fire from the ravagers by design.
Simple target saturation.
3 ravagers 2 beast packs 4 grots + IC is 3 av11 skimmers + 81 wounds that all require high strength shots to remove efficiently even without saves. In essence 6 ravagers from my opponents PoV.

Conversely khymera dont exist to AT weapons, theyre invisible which is not beneficial here. Khymera would hope someone flubbed their target priority to be effectively absorbing enemy fire. Flocks otoh are most effective when target priority is perfect, and even better when they flub it.

Now factor in cover saves...

Brom so how your beastpacks look in that army list ? Pure flocks to draw AT fire?

BTW Im wondering if anyone has advice, are Clawed Fiends better at small points game than typical khymera/flocks? Not only they should find cover easier, cause its only few models, but I think they also draw AT fire, cause nobody can expect to bring Fiends down with bolets or lasguns without pouring a lot of anti-infantry shots into it. My worst fear of running clawed fiends is losing fight and fall back, rending flocks are far better here because of almost guaranteed wounds.

Yes, basically my two favorite builds are 3-4 bm 6-8 flocks x 2 or else one unit of 4 bm 10 khymera 4 flocks. I'll also be running a maxed beast pack with baron Saturday at 1k (usually play 1.5k).

If I missed it, my bad, but what I didn't see anyone mention is that Beastmasters also use the same skyboard that Hellions use. So, they also have 2 poison shots apiece. So 4 or 5 Beastmasters = 8-10 poison shots prior to charging.

Anyone taking the Baron with beasts, and your khymera can toss a grenade prior to charging as well as the Baron getting 2 poison shots in as well.