How should I play it?

I'm starting up a Dark Eldar army to play, in the Army Lists forum I have my 1750 pts list I'm working on, but I would like to hear your suggestions on how I should play the list in order to get the most out of it.

1750 pts Duke Sliscus and Cult

How would you field a list like that? Starting with deployment and general guidlines for target priority and so forth.

Well, the main question here before we even discuss tactics and strategy is this; what is in the listt? Without the other elements, there is no way we could discuss in detail about deployment, target priority, tricks and purposes of units as Dark Eldar is a riot of tactical and strategic play based upon what wargear and unit that one selects.

Now that is out in the open, the thing about Sliscus is that he is primarily a support hero (do not let his wargear and statline put doubt into that mindset) and if you want the best possible 1750 pts list, you will have to think about making your entire gameplan based upon his rules.

1) Which rule do you want to take advantage of? Is it in the order of drugs, poisoned rifles and Deepstriking Venoms, Raiders, and Ravagers? Or you would love to take advantage of deepstriking vehicles, and take the drugs as a secondary option? The only constant is that one ability will be used to the max, one will be a good bonus to your force, and the last ability will be close to being not utilized in the list.

2) What are you putting into your list to take advantage of #1? Lots of wyches, or are you looking at 2 or so Wych units? Will you be taking Reavers or Beastmasters? Lots of Raiders or webway portal? They all determine the tempo and tactics that you use to win the game.

3) What is your backup/supporting elements? A pure wych army will be having the fight of its life against Mech IG or Razorspam. You would need something to solve those problems to get the best out of your wyches.

These are but a few basic things to think about when it comes to a Wych+ Sliscus army. I could play a webway portal list with sliscus and foot wyches, or I can play a skimmer rush with sliscus in tow in a broodbride unit to the front if there are no Kabalite warriors in my list. I can also throw in some Kabalite warriors to balance out the list with ranged anti-tank, and he will be attached to a kabalite to give 3+ poisoned weapons. You can also ignore the deepstriking rule if you want to and instead play with some other interesting combination.

Too much units, too much points restirction, too much options.

(There's a link to the full army list in the post)


(Admin might want to look at highlighting the links in a different color, they really get swallowed up by the bulk text)?

For me it looks like copy-past net list of the month. Blasterborn/incubi/wyches/ravagers in same old proportion.
Best way to win is to suprise enemy(old chaos school) with that list you rly dont do it.

Look around for Thor665. he has a post that covers DE in general and is very good at helping you get started.

I post the thread if I can find it, but its somewhere in the army list forum

its not a bad idea to go review some of the larger point size lists, 1750 and up in the army list sections. There are some good break downs and comments between thor665 and baron tordeck.

GAR wrote:

Look around for Thor665. he has a post that covers DE in general and is very good at helping you get started.

I post the thread if I can find it, but its somewhere in the army list forum

I did?

I'm not even sure what you're talking about - it can't have been a thread started by me, so I was probably just waxing philosophic at some point and went long. I can't think of any general DE advice post I did that was too impressive though...huh...well, hey, if you find it I'll be excited to see it too

-------------------end off-topic-------------------

Okay, looking over your list I have some disagreements with it, but we'll focus on what your army is, you're clearly still working over the list, and if you're confused about how to play it than this is WAY more important to you than me debating with you about which Wych weapons to take and whether or not a Klaivex is helping you, derpy-herpy, I get long winded.

First - it is not a deepstrike list.
Yeah, you've got the Duke, yadda, yadda, yadda, but the tools you have available are not DS tools, so don't DS unless you're absolutely, positively, 100% certain it's a brilliant tactical decision. And even so I'll probably say you're wrong.

Okay, so in understanding a list all you have to do is look at it briefly and note what each unit wants to do.

Duke and his boys want to shoot infantry.
The multiple big Wych squads want to assault infantry.
The Incubi want to assault infantry (and avoid assaulting into cover)
The Venoms want to shoot infantry.
The Ravagers want to shoot mech.
The Raiders want to shoot mech.


Also, it's important to understand this basic rule of DE - we're a glass hammer. In other words, we inflict a lot of damage...and we're not good at absorbing damage. What does that mean? That means attack, attack, attack, and if in doubt attack some more because it's the only thing you're good at anyway.

So, let's consider what our setup is;

Setting up on the Board

If you win the roll for first turn - Take first turn. Set up your army center deployment zone in a fairly tight blob, and press the deployment line as much as possible. You can start playing with this more as you become a better general, but this is an optimal first turn deploy 9 times out of 10 if you don't know any better.

At least 2 Wych Raiders in front - most of the rest can be played with.

Now, get down on your kness and pray he doesn't sieze initiative...if he does seize initiative hope he's not a good gunline build. Okay, good, that should cover you for that.

Turn 1, target priority, and your plan moving forward

Okay, this can sort of depend on how he deployed - but it's possible your Wyches are already in assault range (24" between armies, 12" move + 2" deploy + 1" base + 6" run + 6" assault = 27" and that's even without the Raider rotate cheat/WAAC move).

Your 2 most forward Wych Raiders will either move flat out straight forward (if there's no way you're getting off an assault because he set up on his back table edge) or will move 12" and drop Wyches.

Now you move everything else up 12" (maybe going flat out with other Wych Raiders if you need to, but you probably don't)

Then you start shooting with lances first. Your target priority is this;

1. Transports that shoot well (things like Landraiders or Razorbacks or Chimera, et al)
2. Things that can shoot up your transports easily (Rifleman Dreads, Hammerheads, Predators, et al).
3. All other vehicles.

Why do we list a few transports early? Well - because part of your goal is to flatten his ability to hurt you, but also, with all that anti-infantry tech you have, part of your goal is to make sure there is infantry out on the board for your Venoms to shoot and your Wyches to assault. You don't have a lot of anti-mech, so if he has everything meched up you'd much rather pop a Chimera than a Leman Russ because then you'll have something for all your Venoms to shoot at.

If he already has infantry out (like say, Long Fangs, or Broadside Suits, et al) then you can focus more shooting at big threat shooters and less at transports, but you want to make sure that pretty much every gun you have can shoot and hurt something this round.

Makes sense? Good.

Your Wyches should assault something if they got out - even if it means not shooting everything in your army. Remember, Wyches can assault infantry (and that's primary goal) but if all you have is some vehicles get in there and slap on some Haywire grenades to jack them up.

At this point hopefully you've put a big enough hole in his force he won't be able to respond with enough firepower to stop you.

Turn 2 is basically a continuation of Turn 1 - except now you should pretty much be able to assault anywhere with your Wyches and Incubi, and also be able to bring all your Blasters to bear in shooting as well. Keep in mind the shooting priority, and remember your lances need to do the work of exposing infantry to your anti-infantry tools.

If you do not win the roll for first turn - Well...if your opponent is dumb enough to say something like "I like to go second in objective games for last minute contesting...you go first...duuuuur ::" Then just sigh, and go "well, if you insist" and then laugh in his face and perform turbo pelvic thrusts for a few minutes so he understands what's about to happen to his army. Then play as above.

If he doesn't do that - your goal is to still try to set up fairly aggressive, but try to use BLOS (blocking line of sight) terrain to your advantage. Hide some things. Also, if he did something silly like spread out his army all along his entire deployment line - then deploy your army on either the extreme right or left - that will make it harder for him to bring his full force to bear against you.

After that it pretty much plays the same as before - it's just your goal is to limit his ability to alpha strie your army to the point it can't hurt him enough to win.

Hope that helps,
Thor.

Thor665 wrote:

GAR wrote:

Look around for Thor665. he has a post that covers DE in general and is very good at helping you get started.

I post the thread if I can find it, but its somewhere in the army list forum

I did?

I'm not even sure what you're talking about - it can't have been a thread started by me, so I was probably just waxing philosophic at some point and went long. I can't think of any general DE advice post I did that was too impressive though...huh...well, hey, if you find it I'll be excited to see it too


Thor.

I could have swore on a 1750 list somewhere you posted a good part of the Dakka tactica you wrote. it very well may have been waxing thought, but it had a definite ring of familiarity to me. I was impressed. Still I have not been able to locate it, so maybe I was imagining it. I don't know now...maybe I should stick to painting LOL

I've definitely not direct quoted my tactica/strategica here - though, yeah, I wrote it so probably if I start discussing stuff too much I end up repeating thoughts from it. Was it maybe the explanation of Venom Spam and what it is? I think that's as close as I got to anything looking like a tactica;

https://thedarkcity.forummotion.com/t865-a-1500-pt-new-player-who-needs-advice#8469

The only other serious conversations I got into was some sparring about unit comp of Wyches and RJBs, everything else was a pretty small post in the grand scheme.

In retrospect - I probably should have just quoted my tactica for most of that - derf!

its good stuff and sound advise for getting a lot of fledgling archons going in the right direction.

Sigh... I wish I had read it before I bought 45 and assembled 45 hellions...

Nepenthe wrote:

(There's a link to the full army list in the post)

I didn't see that at all.

As for the list, it reminds me of my own list in a sense, just that I do not have Sliscus and Reavers, and instead I have Trueborns with blasters and Warriors in Venoms.

Quote :

If you win the roll for first turn - Take first turn. Set up your army center deployment zone in a fairly tight blob, and press the deployment line as much as possible. You can start playing with this more as you become a better general, but this is an optimal first turn deploy 9 times out of 10 if you don't know any better.

True to this one, but it depends on the army as well. If the army is a close-ranged shooting army without much long-range heavy weaponry, you can still think of the possibility of going second and going into range would murder you more than anything, then go ahead and be second.

Armies that always prefer to go second such as Null Zone Nids and Drop pod Marines are armies that you would prefer to go second with, as going first is exactly what they want you to do. Do not fall into the trap of the beta strikers.

This will bring us to the other point; If the other army is a shooting-heavy army that can demolish your forces in one turn, it is best that you start thinking about whether you would like to reserve the forces or not. It is a double-edged sword, but one that is preferable to total first turn annihilation. Sometimes just setting up aggressively would just hurt you even more.

Always try to get the first punch in, even if it is a weakened one.

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Then you start shooting with lances first. Your target priority is this;

1. Transports that shoot well (things like Landraiders or Razorbacks or Chimera, et al)
2. Things that can shoot up your transports easily (Rifleman Dreads, Hammerheads, Predators, et al).
3. All other vehicles.

I would agree to a certain extent. But if the firepower of the vehicle is quite small (one lascannon on the razorback) then it is better that you aim for the vehicle that would dish out more shots as the vehicle with the most shots will have a higher chance of destroying your forces. Your opponents will tend to force you to make bad choices, and sometimes both choices are bad. But always try to pick the lesser of the two evils and choose the unit that can shoot more shots.

In addition, always remember; do not attempt to overdo your vehicle shooting. If you can stun or shake it (exception being that GK Dread) you have already prevented one turn of shooting on their side and therefore allowing your vehicles and units to close in for the kill. For the GK dread, the best possible result is usually killing it, or destroying its weapons.

Another noteworthy vtarget are things that can move fast and they hit hard. Land Speeders can play our game to an extent, and they can use their assault cannons or missile launchers to prevent our outflanking tactics. Units that are not vehicles but are able to move fast such as Nob Bikers and Jump Pack Marines should be eliminated as well, as they could catch up to our vehicles and make our day a little darker.

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

True to this one, but it depends on the army as well. If the army is a close-ranged shooting army without much long-range heavy weaponry, you can still think of the possibility of going second and going into range would murder you more than anything, then go ahead and be second.

If the enemy lacks alpha strike range I'm still happy to go first - I can hit him first turn regardless, and I see no reason to give him an extra shot or two with whatever it is he has that can shoot far enough to hit me.

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

Armies that always prefer to go second such as Null Zone Nids and Drop pod Marines are armies that you would prefer to go second with, as going first is exactly what they want you to do. Do not fall into the trap of the beta strikers.

I actually think going first or second vs. Drop Pods is fine - the only time I definitely want to go second vs. them is Dawn of War - the rest of the time I'm probably just as happy going first.

Also, what are Null Zone Nids? I've yet to see a Nid army that even makes me pause since they are a generally weak codex and are *excessively* weak vs. Dark Eldar builds I usually just sort of steamroll them and call it a day.

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

This will bring us to the other point; If the other army is a shooting-heavy army that can demolish your forces in one turn, it is best that you start thinking about whether you would like to reserve the forces or not. It is a double-edged sword, but one that is preferable to total first turn annihilation. Sometimes just setting up aggressively would just hurt you even more.

Eh...
I'm actually strongly against Reserving an army - I think that way lies madness and defeat.
If you have first turn, especially against strong shooting lists (like IG) it's actually really beneficial to set up aggressive. Yeah, he might steal initiative and stomp your teeth in - but he's IG and stands a good chance of stomping your teeth in no matter what, and your only real alternative (especially with OP's list) is to go for the gold with the aggressive setup and get those Wyches in asap.

I agree with a lot of your shooting thoughts, though I think you're starting to debate general DE shooting strategy as opposed to shooting strategy with this particular list. For this list I very much stand by everything I said,, I think it's the smart play.

[quote="Thor665"]

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

True to this one, but it depends on the army as well. If the army is a close-ranged shooting army without much long-range heavy weaponry, you can still think of the possibility of going second and going into range would murder you more than anything, then go ahead and be second.

If the enemy lacks alpha strike range I'm still happy to go first - I can hit him first turn regardless, and I see no reason to give him an extra shot or two with whatever it is he has that can shoot far enough to hit me.

Quote :

Well if you can try to seize or gotten first turn, it would be nice. But sometimes, if his ranged weaponry is not long enough, you can always be happy with the idea of going second. Esnecially if they have a form of beta strike.

There is also always the option of Horde that may force your hand.

Quote :

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

Armies that always prefer to go second such as Null Zone Nids and Drop pod Marines are armies that you would prefer to go second with, as going first is exactly what they want you to do. Do not fall into the trap of the beta strikers.

I actually think going first or second vs. Drop Pods is fine - the only time I definitely want to go second vs. them is Dawn of War - the rest of the time I'm probably just as happy going first.

Also, what are Null Zone Nids? I've yet to see a Nid army that even makes me pause since they are a generally weak codex and are *excessively* weak vs. Dark Eldar builds I usually just sort of steamroll them and call it a day.

Null Deployment. Nothing is on the board, and everything comes in via Mycetic Spores. So you can see 20 Gaunts coming out of nowhere in pods, and could just land in the heart of your armies and just pepper your army with fleshborers, warp lances, and whatever they want to put in those pods. For Pod armies, it is always better to let them land out first so that you get the alpha strike if possible. Take the least amount of casualties while inflicting the most casualties.

And yes, Nids suffer against Dark Eldar. But that saying, I never understood the idea of taking a few big things over many little things. Nothing a Nid player can do if they play the Nidzilla style against us. Would be better for them to play a more insidious list to counter razorspams and lances.

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Crisis_Vyper wrote:

This will bring us to the other point; If the other army is a shooting-heavy army that can demolish your forces in one turn, it is best that you start thinking about whether you would like to reserve the forces or not. It is a double-edged sword, but one that is preferable to total first turn annihilation. Sometimes just setting up aggressively would just hurt you even more.

Eh...
I'm actually strongly against Reserving an army - I think that way lies madness and defeat.
If you have first turn, especially against strong shooting lists (like IG) it's actually really beneficial to set up aggressive. Yeah, he might steal initiative and stomp your teeth in - but he's IG and stands a good chance of stomping your teeth in no matter what, and your only real alternative (especially with OP's list) is to go for the gold with the aggressive setup and get those Wyches in asap.

If you can get the first turn, then by all means go and deploy everything. IF you are second, then you would think a little. Would you prefer to have a higher chance of winning or do you want to test the fates? Both have their own merits, both have their own demerits. In the end, it all depends on how well-terrained is the table you are playing on and how much firepower they can bring about. Sometimes, it is better to think about some other tactics other than just biting the bullet.

In addition, there is also the fact that some armies would prefer you to come in closer to them. Some IG 'leafblower' (though the idea of a leafblower is nothing short of extinct these days with the death of the Allies rule, but apparently all Mech IG lists are called leafblowers for some reason ) lists are designed to do one thing, punish people that get in close with close range firepower. So this is also another idea to think about before committing in. Assault is decisive, but sometimes it is quite foolish to enter into combat knowing that you would do better with a little long-range shooting.

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I agree with a lot of your shooting thoughts, though I think you're starting to debate general DE shooting strategy as opposed to shooting strategy with this particular list. For this list I very much stand by everything I said,, I think it's the smart play.

It is more or less the right mindset about the list. But I am just saying that thinking of other options other than senselessly exposing oneself to danger would be viable. If you have the options, think of all of them before acting on the best one.

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

Null Deployment. Nothing is on the board, and everything comes in via Mycetic Spores. So you can see 20 Gaunts coming out of nowhere in pods, and could just land in the heart of your armies and just pepper your army with fleshborers, warp lances, and whatever they want to put in those pods. For Pod armies, it is always better to let them land out first so that you get the alpha strike if possible. Take the least amount of casualties while inflicting the most casualties.

Ah, yeah, drop pod Nids, okay. I suspect the usual turbo castle deployment will work as well vs. them as vs. DoA or any other drop list. Also, if you go first vs. a Drop list you get a lot of control in dictating where they get to DS. Also, Mycetic Spores, unlike Sphess Marines, don't get seriously affected by going 1st or 2nd - so you might as well take first in case he stars anything on the table, or to at least have free reign to set up your own positions for when he does come in.

Quote :

In addition, there is also the fact that some armies would prefer you to come in closer to them. Some IG 'leafblower' (though the idea of a leafblower is nothing short of extinct these days with the death of the Allies rule, but apparently all Mech IG lists are called leafblowers for some reason ) lists are designed to do one thing, punish people that get in close with close range firepower. So this is also another idea to think about before committing in. Assault is decisive, but sometimes it is quite foolish to enter into combat knowing that you would do better with a little long-range shooting.

Whether or not you want to get in close to an enemy army is meaningless to taking 1st or 2nd turn. If I want to stay far back and shoot at an enemy army, I still want first turn so I can shoot first. if I want to bum rush him and assault I also want first turn.

I love this forum, it must have the best signal/noise ratio on the whole Internet. Nearly all posts are solid gold, whether you're looking for strategy or painting or whatnot. Luv it!

Thor665 wrote:

Ah, yeah, drop pod Nids, okay. I suspect the usual turbo castle deployment will work as well vs. them as vs. DoA or any other drop list. Also, if you go first vs. a Drop list you get a lot of control in dictating where they get to DS. Also, Mycetic Spores, unlike Sphess Marines, don't get seriously affected by going 1st or 2nd - so you might as well take first in case he stars anything on the table, or to at least have free reign to set up your own positions for when he does come in.

If one takes the first turn against a beta strike it is just playing to that army's strength. The reserve manipulation that the Swarmlord or even the Hive Tyrant throws can in effect run a Dark Eldar army any day. It is quite similar to the Eldar reserve army, that when they do come in, they come in mostly intact, not in waves. With one average shooting round, almost every vehicle in the Dark Eldar army can bite the dust. Space Marines drop pods are easier to deal with as they do not have a reserve manipulator like those of the Guard, Eldar or Nids.

I rather set up for the kill, rather than setting up to be killed.

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Whether or not you want to get in close to an enemy army is meaningless to taking 1st or 2nd turn. If I want to stay far back and shoot at an enemy army, I still want first turn so I can shoot first. if I want to bum rush him and assault I also want first turn.

I agree that striking first is vital, but just putting everything out to be turkeyshot in a small barrel is not the way to set up for a first turn strike. First turn strikes does not mean that you get them literally in the first turn; it is basically being the first one doing the shots.

The misconception about Dark Eldar is that they must always be the first player. To be honest, it is more like they are the one doing the punches first, and that does not equate to being the one who starts to roll the ball. Barring unusual deployment or beta strike, yes we want to be the first player. But if they have tricks to capitalize on that counterpunch, then deny them that counterpunch.

Not all the time you would get that first turn proper. An average shooting phase from even a Wolf Razorback-Long Fang spam already would cripple the army from the get go in their first shooting phase. The IG version would be much more intimidating, and indeed our worst matchup.The army can and will be torn apart, leaving you with nothing to shoot at the opponent at all for your first turn if you are out in the open as the player in the bottom half of the turn.

The reserve game would give you a reduced first turn strike, a beta strike to be exact. The opponent's first two turns will be for nothing, and despite the fact that rserves is a little fickle but nonetheless you could go about getting the first shots against the opponent once it reaches your turn 2.

Crisis_Vyper wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Ah, yeah, drop pod Nids, okay. I suspect the usual turbo castle deployment will work as well vs. them as vs. DoA or any other drop list. Also, if you go first vs. a Drop list you get a lot of control in dictating where they get to DS. Also, Mycetic Spores, unlike Sphess Marines, don't get seriously affected by going 1st or 2nd - so you might as well take first in case he stars anything on the table, or to at least have free reign to set up your own positions for when he does come in.

If one takes the first turn against a beta strike it is just playing to that army's strength. The reserve manipulation that the Swarmlord or even the Hive Tyrant throws can in effect run a Dark Eldar army any day. It is quite similar to the Eldar reserve army, that when they do come in, they come in mostly intact, not in waves. With one average shooting round, almost every vehicle in the Dark Eldar army can bite the dust. Space Marines drop pods are easier to deal with as they do not have a reserve manipulator like those of the Guard, Eldar or Nids.

I'm not sure whether I'm missing the point or you are, let's consider;

vs. Space Marine Drop Pods

If I take first turn I setup first, then he sets up (possibly nothing depending how drop heavy he is) then I get a turn, and then he gets 50% of his Drop Pods in.

This can by toyed with by going reserve, because you can have nothing in your army on the board when he comes out with half his pods.

This cannot be toyed with by going second, as all going second means is that you can't move your vehicles flat out before he drop pods.


vs. Nid Mycetic Spores w. Tyrant/Swarm Lord

He doesn't show up Turn 1, he shows up Turn 2 - he is different than the Eldar, because the Eldar reserve rule is better - but basically he gets +1 to his reserve rolls and has to use it, so statistically he gets 66% of his reserve army in on Turn 2.

If he sets anything up on the board it's better to go Turn 1 because I can have 2 uninterupted rounds to kill it - which is all DE need.

If he doesn't set anything up on the board, then I can potentially have a better situation by going Turn 2 (again) *if* I go full reserve. Then I can have 50% of my army fight 66% of his (with alpha strike, albeit). Or I can just move flat out and castle and have 100% of my army set up in a way to have strong saves and restrict his drop zones and give him alpha strike (which Nids are too weak to do much of anything with anyway).

So - really, what you're talking about is the viability of going Full Reserve.
Not the viability of going second.
Yes/no?

[quote="Thor665"][quote="Crisis_Vyper"]

Thor665 wrote:

So - really, what you're talking about is the viability of going Full Reserve.
Not the viability of going second.
Yes/no?

Yes, I am talking about the viability of going full reserves when the situation calls for it. I guess I should have worded my first post a little better I guess.

And to clarify my earlier post (since I was reported for it - and will doubtlessly be again for this), it was meant as a thanks for the tactical article (I dare not call it a post) Thor had written.