A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Nice report. It seems your opponent really had no answers to your list though. I eagerly await more.

Now ... I played a monster mash list at the beginning of 6ed with WLs and DKs ( there was no new Eldar codex yet). Now with battle focus and the new WKs it is time to revamp that list ... as is my want another out-of-the -box build ... what do you expect from a duckdrake, eh.

- 1850 Monster Mash -

Draigo 275
Laughtarch, Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask, Mantle of the Laughing God 150

5 Striking Scorpians, Exarch, Scorpian's Claw 125

2x 1 Soladin, Daemon Hammer 110
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102

8 Warp Spiders 152
Storm Raven, TL Assault Cannon, TL Heavy Bolters, Psybolt Ammo 225

2x Dreadknight, Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter 470
Wraithknight 240

I consider Draigo a MC as well - even if he isn't . lol. He will make those Dreadknights scoring and let my Soladins and Storm Raven DS when needed. This list is actually a revamp of a previous list I used prior to the new Eldar codex. It had three Wraithlords, and the the single DK. That list was my not so serious tournament list - it had its moments. Now with WKs, battle focus, Laughtarch,  improved Warp Spiders I feel the list has improved a lot. Tau will still be a problem with Riptides and Broadsides ( they can kill DKs and WKs in a turn but meh). The trick is to play a little aggressively and use cover when possible.

First off… Legs… I hate you.

Baron
9 Dogs
4 Birds

3x Splinterborn /w Haywire in Lance Raider with NS
6x blaster warriors in Dizzy Raiders with NS
3x Ravagers with NS.

still hate you Legs.

Dear Cheer;

So I present to you what we discuassed in chat. It is hard to overlook the Nurgle Lord if you decide to play CS. Here is your best allied Crimson Slaughter detachment ...

Chaos Lord, MoN, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Slaughterer’s Horns, Daemonheart, Sigil of Corruption, Blight Grenades, Bike
5 Plague Marines, 2 Plasma Guns, Rhino, Dirge Caster, Havoc Launcher
Heldrake, Hades or Baleflamer
5 Chaos Spawn, MoN
3 Obliterators, MoN

That is one very sick lord. He’s T6 with a 2+/4++ and IWND, plus he has S5 lightning claws on the charge with a bonus attack. And he has a lot of attacks with rage and furious charge. You think there is better lord with Crimson Slaughter? I think not. The nurgle biker lord can tank for a nurgle spawn unit and with Sv 2+, inv 4+, IWND, and T6 he is pretty dang survivable. Just roll the 2+ until he takes a wound and start LOS the rest of the wounds onto his spawn bullet catchers. The possessed artifact is great because the character becomes a daemon. He can get the grimoire put on him (if at one point ypu wish ally with daemons) for a 2+ invulnerable save and he gets an extra rule every turn which may be great (invulnerable save one is great on an IC), may help him deal with terrain (beasts ignore terrain so feel free to move straight through that forest/ruins), or may let him rend. So if you are making that Kharne list with Berserkers in a Land Raider  - here is your detachment. I added the Oblits so that you can get - if you want - four HS slots. Room for Maulerfiends and more Oblits.

Yours Truly
Mr. Duck Drake

Those relics are okay. It is Prophet of the Voices that makes him join possessed. And if you want to run CS as primary add Sorcerer, Balestar of Mannon, ML3, Chaos Bike and 10 cultists.

psycheer wrote:

First off… Legs… I hate you.

Baron
9 Dogs
4 Birds

3x Splinterborn /w Haywire in Lance Raider with NS
6x blaster warriors in Dizzy Raiders with NS
3x Ravagers with NS.

still hate you Legs.  

You are very welcome!!! ;)That is one mean list. The beastpack is definately going to help you distract your opponents away from your boats for a turn or 2 which will be nice.  When you say splinterborn with haywire, im guessing that means HWG so that's a neat set of elite units...though I'm partially confused as to why they have a dual purpose but it is an easy way to have hwg when the going gets tough against some super armor units.  I can see this list doing fairly well!


************************************
A 40k Weekend

This weekend I will be playing against a bunch of friends in a mini tournament of sorts. This what I'm bringing:

Archon (shadowfield, huskblade, venom blade, hwg, drugs)

4 grots (liquifier) in raider

2x 5 warriors (blaster) in venom (dual SC)
2x 5 wyches (hwg) in raider

Beast pack (4 masters, 10 kym, 4 flocks)

2x Talos (SC,liquifier)

Allies:
Farseer (shard of anaris, jetbike, searing spear)

3 jetbikes

6 warp spiders

Wraithknight


So I really like this list, it allows me to use my brand new venoms that I just put together and painted this week along with my new beast pack. I've never used either of these before so it will be  learning experience. The list essentially offers MTOs that are very 'in your face' and will seek to pressure my opponent to make choices and mistakes, where my "lesser" units will then punish those mistakes. I have an obvious glaring issue...this list hates flyers and as you will see below that is going to be an issue most likely!


Since its a friendly weekend of play, we are posting our lists ahead of time. Thus, I can share the lists that have been posted so far and my thoughts on each one. We are playing 1850 pts with a total of 6 players. We will either try the LVO style missions or just do the book missions straight up but that is tbd.

So my first opponent is going to be against Necrons and here is the list:

Quote :

Nemesor Zhandrekh
Cryptek council with 2 of despair and 3 of the storm
2 squads of death marks with night scythes
2 squads of immortals 5 models a piece in night scythes
a 5 man squad of warriors in a ghost ark
6 wraiths 3 with whip coils
2 annihilation barges

This will actually be the first time I play against Necrons 5th edition...the last time I played against crons many years ago was with their last codex. That alone is going to make this game a challenge for me. Looking at the list and after a quick glance at the codex I can tell you the 4 flyers are going to be a huge issue for me. I have what amounts to zero dedicated AA. My only hope is to use the raiders, WK, and warp spiders (probably attach farseer for boost output). However, I will ignore them at first and focus on whats on the ground. Turn 1-2 I'd like to destroy the wraiths and the annihilation barges as I hear they are nasty. The cryptek squad upon a quick glance at the codex looks to be a short ranged monster, so ideally I can use venoms to work those down if they are hoofing it out on foot. Beastpack may try to tie these guys down if I find out they are being a pain. Later turns will see me attempt to kill off the flyers and any troops they leave around. I'd love to hear input on what to expect from this list as I am not well versed in crons.

My next opponent will be space wolves and will be another hard matchup for my list I feel.
Selections:

Quote :

+ HQ + (345pts)

* Rune Priest (100pts)
Biomancy/Divination/Telekinesis, Living Lightning, Rune Staff
* Power Armour
Bolt Pistol, Frag & Krak Grenades, chooser of the Slain

* Wolf Lord (245pts)
2x Fenrisian Wolf, Warlord (*)
* Power Armour
Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Thunderwolf

+ Elites + (264pts)

* Wolf Guard Pack (264pts)
* Arjac Rockfist
* 2x Terminator Armour
2x Combi Plasma, 2x Power Axe

+ Troops + (510pts)

* Grey Hunters Pack (175pts)
*Wolf Standard
* 8x Grey Hunter
* Plasma Gun
* Rhino

* Grey Hunters Pack (165pts)
* 8x Grey Hunter
*Plasma Gun
* Rhino

* Grey Hunters Pack (170pts)
Wolf Standard
* Drop Pod
* 8x Grey Hunter
* Meltagun

+ Fast Attack + (210pts)

* Thunderwolf Cavalry (210pts)
Melta Bombs
* 3x Thunderwolf Cavalry
Power Fist, Storm Shield

+ Heavy Support + (400pts)

* Long Fangs Pack (170pts)
* 2x Long Fang with Lascannon
* 3x Long Fang with Missile Launcher
* Squad Leader

* Long Fangs Pack (115pts)
* 4x Long Fang with Missile Launcher
* Squad Leader

* Long Fangs Pack (115pts)
* 4x Long Fang with Missile Launcher
* Squad Leader

Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun

Wow! That is a lot of long fangs and a lot of missile launchers that are going to be big trouble for my 3 MCs. Wraithknight is going to have to be careful and I expect that the priest will join one of those, probably the lascannon/ML combo squad.  Certain deployments are going to hurt against an army like this.  This is nice list as it has good back field support and a strong swinging front line that includes the thunderwolf Calvary and grey hunters.  The wolf guard will join the three grey hunter squads I bet with arjac probably riding that pod down into battle, but I could be wrong. The key will be to use my beastpack to shield my troops and stick to whatever objectives we are playing for.  Playing against a list like this is going to be tough as threats will be everywhere quickly. My venoms should probably try to dislodge some long fangs as quickly as possible and the my MCs must be careful when trying to control areas of the board. The quad gun doesn't mean that much against me as I'm not running any flyers and I don't care about the aegis either. The thunderwolves will need to die asap as well or get tied down in combat, perhaps by my wyches as they wont do much else here.  My strength is that my army is very mobile and I should be able to play keep away with some of my forces if need be.  Thoughts anyone?



My third opponent will be playing imperial guard with a whole lot of tanks.

Quote :

Company Command Squad (w/ master of ordnance)
2 Platoons (each with a command squad, 2 squads of guard and 1 heavy weapons team - also a commissar in one of the squads)
1 Chimera
2 Leman Russ Tanks (is the plural of Russ Russi????)
1 Demolisher
3 Basilisks
1 Aegis Defense Line (w/ Quad-gun)

I have a really good record against imperial guard. I struggled in my first games ever with DE against them, but since I learned to play DE against them and having faced IG A LOT over my time in 40k (2 friends play them!) I know what can do what very well.

This list has a ton of vehicles and a troublesome amount if I say so. The key will to be rush my friend and get those tanks destroyed and put the hurt on the blobs of infantry that are sure to be hiding. Venoms will focus long range fire at heavy weapon squads asap and then follow onto the infantry if still around. The basilisks need to die asap, but luckily they are in a squad. I'm thinking go for the deep striking spiders and let loose on side/rear armor. My beastpack will have to play all spread out and hope to weather some fire in order to be of any use. Hopefully they will take the attention off my army. WK and wyches will go tank hunting for sure. Even in a objective game, my best bet is going to be to blow up all the tanks and virtually table teh infantry as best I can. I can't afford to just sit around and wait as he has all the range he needs to pulverize me from a distance.



I play one other game after this against my friend who is playing GK and Eldar in some combination, but I don't know his list yet. The one friend I wont end up playing as part of the tourny (ill try to play him sunday morning!) will be playing IG as well.


What do you guys think?

With IG you want the beastpack in their face as quick as possible. I have found the pack to be MVP in games gainst IG - they take out everything.

Necrons will be headache for you. Zhandrekh has nifty bonuses. I don;t know if he wioll use a veil teq with the deathmarks - seems he will not and that is bonus because the staff can wipe out your pack.

Get rid of the ERP- he will stop your Farseer dead in his tracks. I know -i play dual RPs in my Iron Wolves and run over seer council and screamerstar. Get in his deployment zone with your warp soiders and wipe out those LFs too.

Like your list. All you need is a WK a DK and an SR for it to perfect - oh wait that is my monster mash list. No this is perfect as is. Just one thing though. Drugs are great on huskblade archon and meh on a VB archon ... so if you cannot find the points to upgrade his weapon drop the drugs for a different upgrade.

That's my mistake, he has both a huskblade and a VB.


And the last list that I will face as part of the mini tourny:

Quote :

Grey Knights 5th Edition (Allied Detachment) Selections:
HQ (200pts)
Librarian (200pts)
And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 2), The Aegis
Frag, Krak and Psyk-out Grenades, Hammerhand, Mastery Level 2, Nemesis Warding Stave (35pts), Smite (5pts), Storm Bolter, Vortex of Doom (5pts), Warp Rift (5pts)
Troops (350pts)
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (350pts)
And They Shall Know No Fear, Brotherhood of Psykers, Combat Squads, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), The Aegis
Brotherhood Banner (25pts), Hammerhand, Nemesis Force Daemonhammer, 3x Nemesis Force Halberd, Nemesis Force Sword, Psybolt Ammunition (20pts), Psycannon (25pts), 5x Storm Bolter, 6x Terminators (240pts)
Terminator Justicar (40pts)
Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter
Fast Attack (255pts)
Stormraven Gunship (255pts)
Assault Vehicle, Deep Strike, Power of the Machine Spirit, Psychic Pilot, Shadow Skies, The Aegis
Fortitude, Hurricane Bolters (30pts), Psybolt Ammunition (20pts), Twin Linked Heavy Bolters, Twin Linked Plasma Cannons
Heavy Support (200pts)
Nemesis Dreadknight (200pts)
And They Shall Know No Fear, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Psyker (Mastery Level 1), The Aegis
Dark Excommunication, Hammerhand, Heavy Incinerator (30pts), Heavy Psycannon (40pts), Two Nemesis Doomfists
Codex: Eldar 6th Edition (2013) (Primary Detachment) Selections:
HQ (110pts)
Farseer (110pts)
Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Fleet, Ghosthelm, Independent Character, Psychic Disciplines: Divination, Runes of Fate, Telepathy, Psyker (Mastery Level 3), Rune Armour
Runes of warding (10pts) (*), Witchblade
Troops (260pts)
Guardian Defenders (110pts)
Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Fleet
10x Guardian (90pts)
Heavy Weapons Platform (20pts)
Relentless
Brightlance (20pts)
Guardian Defenders (90pts)
Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Fleet
10x Guardian (90pts)
Rangers (60pts)
Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Stealth
5x Ranger (60pts)
Fast Attack (185pts)
Hemlock Wraithfighter (185pts)
Psychic Pilot, Psychic Power: Terrify, Psyker (Mastery Level 1), Spirit Stones, Vector Dancer
Mindshock Prod (*), Two Heavy D-Scythes
Heavy Support (290pts)
Dark Reapers (140pts) (Codex: Eldar (2013) p36)
Ancient Doom, Slow and Purposeful
3x Dark Reaper (90pts)
3x Reaper launcher
Exarch (50pts)
Fast Shot (10pts) (*), Marksman's Eye (10pts) (*), Tempest launcher (20pts)
Fire Prism (150pts)
Holo-fields (15pts) (*), Prism cannon, Spirit stones (10pts) (*), Twin-linked shuriken catapults

So I had a chay with Jy2 who plays a list similar to mine and ended up making some changes - the Avatar is a beast but he is slow. The autarch can threaten the opponents deployment zone and help with reserves. So I reluctantly made the switch. I played a game with the new list ...

- 1850 Monster Mash -

Draigo 275
Laughtarch, Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask, Mantle of the Laughing God 150

5 Striking Scorpians, Exarch, Scorpian's Claw 125

2x 1 Soladin, Daemon Hammer 110
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102

8 Warp Spiders 152
Storm Raven, TL Assault Cannon, TL Heavy Bolters, Psybolt Ammo 225

2x Dreadknight, Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter 470
Wraithknight 240

I played against a screamerstar. The usual - Fatey, Be'Lakor, DP, 3 Heralds, 2 Horror squads, Screamers, Cultists, I knew my pririties were the heralds and BE'Lakor. I would deal with the two other DPs after taking out the Grimoire and his Telepathy master.

I knew he would move aggressively with his DPs and screamerstar turn one. So I played defensively keeping back and hugging any cover. I wanted to eventually control mid table. He had no idea how to actually play against my list as who has seen something like this?

So turn one I had Spiders, a soladin in a raven, a single soladin and some bikes in reserve. I had deployed my Scorpians forward to bait him and then hopefully bring in my Spiders to finish off whatever he used to go after them. He sent the screamerstar in their direction and I failed DtW and took some damage and but I was in area terrain had stealth on scorps, and just went to ground. I lost one Scorp.

Turn two my raven and spiders come on.  I mindstruck his star and took out his grimoire, heralds and a chunk of screamers along with downing Be'LAkor and almost killing him. He recognized that my SR had to go then, lol. So he shot what he had at it ... it was left with one HP.

Turn three was sad for him because he did not kill the SR he then lost Be'Lakor (to warp spiders and his other DP to the SR) Fatey had flown in to reserves. At that point I just had to be cagey to win.

I now controlled the table pretty much.  Raven hovered and picked up Draigo to move him central. My DKs shunted and got position on the cultists and horrors ( very quick ending there). With no troops and Fatey I knew it was my game no matter how much damage he managed. Now I was very lucky rolling. I admit that. My SR should have gone down. But meh, you take what is given, right.

So JY2 has a better list than my original build  - autarch is better than Avatar ( even though he now hs battle focus). All in all pleased with this fun build.  It is not OPand I will lose games with it but I think it will surprise a lot of players too. Scoring DKs are nice and they are priority targets for sure in the list. Tau and DE could take out an laughtarch and DK in one turn if you allow them the shots. FMC list not so good at it. So I need to test it a bit more for laughs and funsies.

Now Jy2 does not use scorps. I like them in the list for a few reasons. I want that AP2 STr6 at I claw. Also i have the option to outflank if I want to which is nice. The list has a few deployment options. You could DS Draigo ( however, psychic communion does not work in reserve), you could start Spiders and Scorps on the board ( both can be far forward turn one easly). The list does need speed though. You have to be able redeploy your units quickly - this is how you win. Now there is only one good way to beat a deatstar ... troll it to where you want it. That is why I like Scorps. They tend to pull that type of unit where you want it to go because no one wants an AP2 claw left lurking about. Between an Autarch and Scorps you can do a lot of trolling.

And just as an aside ... if you roll 3 on a D3 - Draigo can be scoring too - he can grab a relic and g0d help you get it back.

I took my double beast pack list to a little 3 round 24 person tournament run by the Stomping Grounds guys and came out in first. There weren't enough rounds to get a single undefeated winner but I had the biggest wins. My friend Nick was also undefeated and came in second with his FMC Daemons/Chaos. It was an Adepticon primer tournament using last year's missions.

First round was a Vanguard Relic + Objectives primary mission against a battle suit/riptide based Farsight Enclave w/Eldar Allies. I kept the pressure on him by feeding him a scary unit per turn and kept him pinned in his quarter until it was too late and won both primaries.

Second Round was Dawn of War Kill Points + Objectives mission against Far-Sun-Tiggy. He fished for gate and didn't get it. I ignored the Bomb and killed the rest of his army (broadsides, skyrays, riptide), then hit the bomb hard with shooting and focus fired on stuff with only 4+ cover. I killed about half of it (mostly drones) and they failed morale and ran off the table, leaving him with 10 kroot, 1 falling back kroot, and 2 x 5 scout squads against my entire army (both beast packs had taken a beating but neither got wiped). I ended up tabling him and won on both primaries.

Third round was Dawn of War Kill Points + Objectives with Big Guns against a Clan Raukaan/SM list with 3 CMs on bikes with 2+/3++(one had gorgon's chain, one had Shield Eternal, one had a SS) in a Grav bike command squad, with 2 thunderfires, a stormtalon, a Hunter, 2 tac squads in rhinos, and 20 scouts with 2 LS-Storms. I don't think he'd played against beasts before and I think he wasn't really sure how to approach the game. I also rolled awesome powers (fortune, misfortune, scriers), and took bottom. I stayed spread out so the TFCs didn't do much, and got a fresh beast pack stuck in with his bike star and killed it over a couple turns thanks to fortune/misfortune while the rest of my army wore down the rest of his. We ended up calling it at the beginning of my turn 4 (bottom of the turn) since I was up 8-0 on KP and also winning on objectives. This game was actually streamed-live with commentary, I'll put a link up if I can find it.

Also I can do a full turn-by-turn report for either of the first two games if anyone would like.

It is interesting Bugs that the two lists that run my 'monster mash' over is beastpack and FMCdaemons. I can handle seer council often enough and screamerstar though. I'm not at all surprised at the results. Did the FMC list have Be'Lakor? And was yuor list the same as the last one you played?

Yeah my list was pretty much the same as the one posted at the top of page 14 (but only 8 spiders, and a spear + witnessing for the farseer).  The tournament used Adepticon restrictions which means no Dataslates of any kind, so no Belakor.  Nick's list was fatey, LoC, 10 horrors, 10 plagues, 2 T-princes, lvl 1 sorc, 10 cultists, and a heldrake, oh and a Bastion.

Great job guys! I'm glad you both did so well!

As for my weekend, my games were really fun and crazy. We decided to do some crazy double mission games (roll for 2 primaries) and FB, slay, and linebreaker were worth double points. I ultimately went 2-1, where I lost against Crons and won against Eldar/GK and wolves. We didn't have enough time to play a 4th due to want to eat dinner and party haha.

My game against crons was a double relic game with hammer and anvil and I went first and wittled down most of his wraiths T1, while moving my jetbikes to grab one of the relics. The beastpack swept forward to midfield and on my opponents turn, he assaulted it with his wraiths and attached destroyer lord...I killed the wraiths but the destroyer lord just wouldn't die. Mindshackle scarabs are ridiculous and had no idea of how annoying they could be. This cc went on for most of the game with it ending with my farseer and 2 flocks getting away...only to see the lord resurrect and go do other harm. The flyers were annoying as were the barges...tesla and w/e else it was with all the extra hits and such on 6s and arcing crap just annihilated my army. The flyers dumping squads down midfield T3-T4 didn't help as by then my forces were exhausted trying to push forwards to kill the anni barges and other units that dropped off. I was essentially tabled by the end, but had FB and thus lost 8-2. If I played more conservatively I may have done better, but his flyers and touch armor made life difficult for me...along with my pack getting bogged down and wiped out by the destroyer lord.

My second game went much better and was against Eldar/GK. The mission was awesome: scouring AND big guns never tire...so many objectives and was hammer and anvil. The small amount of units with not much dakka made my life a lot easier. He had horrible reserves rolls though and his termies and stormraver never saw the table until T4. Had they been on T2 things could have changed. My pack went on a rampage though eventually was beaten back and fell into retreat when my farseer died. By this time though I controlled all the nice objectives that were worth good points and managed to hold out with the game ending T6. I won something like 28-4.

My third game was against wolves and this was a kill point and emporers will game played deploying against the long edge (yay for me!). I deployed second and opposite his corner of long fangs, though my pack deployed opposite the castle of doom. This game saw my fortune rolls perils, fail on 11 and get denied by the RP through the 3 turns we played. By T3 my pack had ripped through a grey hunter squad and 2 of his long fangs along with the RP. He podded in T1 in my corner and I spent 2 turns taking that out via CC with archon and WK and company...silly Arjac wouldn't die in challenge with the archon easily. Ultimately I ripped up the battlefield without taking too many losses and he called it T3, though his thunderwolves didn't get to do anything yet because they came in T3 from outflank thanks to a warlord trait he rolled. In the end I had victory.

As I predicted - Necrons would be your toughest match. Not much you can do but hope Necs make mistakes to win it. Otherwise good job.

I cannot even remember the last time I shared lists before a match. We did when i first started playing, though I was the newb and to be honest my opponent was probably taking advantage of it far more than I.

Hey Josef. You should mention that you are in fact Jancoren and your last article is quite good.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.ca/

We were designing a list for our team that had many of the elements in your list but played a bit differently.

BL/C:CSM - 1750

HQ: Daemon Prince (Daemon of Nurgle, Wings, Lvl1, Skull of Ker'ngar, Spineshiver Blade, GoM)
HQ: Chaos Lord (Mark of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption, Juggernaut of Khorne, Axe of Blind Fury, GoM)

Elite:  Mutilator (Mark of Nurgle)
Elite:  Mutilator (Mark of Nurgle)
Elite:  Mutilator (Mark of Nurgle)
Elite:  Mutilator (Mark of Nurgle)

Troop: 3x 10 Cultists
Troop: 5 Khorne Berserkers (1 Plasma Pistol), Rhino (Dirge Caster)

FA: 5 Spawn
FA: Heldrake (Baleflamer)
FA: Heldrake (Hades Aurtocannon)

HQ: Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)
HQ: Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)
HQ: Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)
HQ: Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

No Hand of Darkness or Eye of Night - we found it to hit and miss on the Lord. Mutiltors and Obliterators really are that good yes and using two FoCs allows four FA and four HS. . With the ally chart you van get four HS slots too. We did not use Raptors - we rely instead on that Spawn pack to do a lot of damage.

As an aside - people keep knocking the hades and picking the baleflamer. In today's meta the hades is often the better choice. AI is rarely the problem - we need AT and AA.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

I cannot even remember the last time I shared lists before a match.  We did when i first started playing, though I was the newb and to be honest my opponent was probably taking advantage of it far more than I.

Yea it was interesting to do it that way, but at least everyone knew what was coming and could come up with strategies. Since it was all friendly stuff it really didn't matter

Ah yes, my patented Mutilator and Obliterator spamtacticness.  Very effective.  And I see you made good use of the spineshiver blade (frightening weapon).
 
The spawn are a fine replacement (though as you know I'm playing Night Lords so I needed Raptors), although having only one unit of them seems like missed opportunity.  Are you needing the second Heldrake that much?  It gives you three anti-air attacks per round when needed which is cool and some cool strafing.  
 
I'm a big fan of using the Mutilators now.  I definitely wasn't seeing it on paper, but the more I have played them the more I have come to appreciate them.
 
Oh and the Hand of Darkness with a combat familiar is awesome.  The Night of Eye is First Blood on a stick and can mess with Mechdar really well.

This might actually be my first post on this, but since both of you have opened discussion in regards to the Beaststar, Scorpotesques and Deerstar it has led me to contemplate some things regarding them (if not only the conversion possibilities). As such, I've made what can be considered an especially "weird" list and possibly also a fun one to play due to it's random nature. As with all lists I post, annotations are in the list, further explanation down below.

1750/1750pts

Eldar Primary:
6x Warlocks w/ Jetbike, Singing spear (330pts)
Notes: Acts as deerstar if roll on Fortune succeeds, otherwise joins windrider jetbikes as buff/anti-tank unit.

HQ (385pts)
Farseer w/ Shard of Anaris, Jetbike (155pts)
Notes: If roll on fortune succeeds, join with Warlock council, otherwise join Beaststar.

Karandras (230pts)
Notes: Join with grotesques for sneak synergy.

Troops (244pts)
6x Windrider Jetbike w/ 2x Splinter Cannons (122pts)

6x Windrider Jetbike w/ 2x Splinter Cannons (122pts)
Notes: If roll on Fortune Fails, allocate three warlocks to each Jetbike squad.

Dark Eldar Allies:
HQ (105pts)
Baron Sathonyx (105pts)
Notes: If roll on Fortune succeeds, join deerstar, else join beaststar.

Elites (220pts)
6x Grotesques w/ Liquifier gun (220pts)
Notes: Join with Karandras for infiltration

Troops (250pts)
Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster(125pts)
* Venom w/ Splinter Cannon

Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster(125pts)
* Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
Notes: Bog standard run off the mill Kabalites for anti-tank and infantry.

Fast Attack (216pts)
4x Beastmasters (216pts)
* 9x Khymerae
* 4x Razorwings
Notes: If rolling Fortune fails, beast star comes in effect by attaching Sathonyx and the Farseer. Otherwise a somewhat "weak" standard melee unit compared to the deerstar in effect.


The annotations should give an indication of the role each unit plays. There will, in essence always exist two "deathstar" units in one way or the other. This makes playing the list seem like an interesting prospect since you essentially have two army lists built in one. I do however lack the expertise to give any sort of verdict and as such would like further suggestions and/or critique.

@ jancoren - I do not doubt the Eye of Night can be powerful. It is an expensive though. Unfortunately if you’re playing against Nids, FMC even Tau, you’re going to be very sad about the investment.  If I was up against mostly wave serpents and venoms then sure. I could see this being a great threat but as I said, we found it situational. If it has been working for you though and now with IKs in the meta it might be a consideration - still want the skull though.

@ randozart - buddy. Even if you don not get fortune that squad is tough with the Seer and the Baron. You do not have to split them up. Here is my problem - why beasts and grots and seer council. If you are playing the infiltrating grots you do not need the beastpack.  Drop the bikes to 3x 3 and add a wave serpent with DA.with the points. You will profit. Maybe add one grot or one seer.

The Eye of Night is situational. That is in no way false. I still will take it though, warts and all.

It is still an STR 5 AP 4 large blast ignoring cover on a BS 5 guy. That can be a pretty devastating template against a lot of Xenos; and if Marbo is worth 65 points at 6" against a Xenos threat, the Eye of Night with unlimited range is not so bad. In that light Marbo looks expensive against Xenos compared to the Eye of Night!

In my last game against Tyranids, since it ignores cover, I was able to bombinate a very large chunk of models after a combat ended. Killed 10 models with it, and though that did barely get its points back, it DID get it's points back and it was a scoring unit I killed. It won't always. So it's a risk/reward calculation. Consider that if I only get 50% of its points back in some games and I get 4 x it's points back in others, it's hard to feel cheated over that, in the long run.

Last thought on the Eye of Night: Fortifications. The Fortress of Redemption and things like it are here to stay it seems. A weapon like this can put serious pain on such a fortress and since I play in a meta where fortifications like Bastions and Fortress's see some limited use (we mostly avoid the Stronghold and Escalation), it's a wise idea to have something for that.

The Hand of Darkness is another one that's situational because against "not so awesome" things like Gaunts, it's a disastrously wasteful 50 points because you're either getting just one attack or you're getting 4 mundane ones. If attacking a vehicle, you're getting just one good shot at hitting it, not 4. It's a really awesome shot at it, but still only one. Yet if you fight WraithKnights and Riptides (and I do) there's nothing you'd rather own than the Hand of Darkness honestly. Keeping away from the rabble nd not getting tied up is the main goal when using this bad boy.

Here is just some food for thought. Deathstars are the flavour of the day but we as DE/Eldar players seem trapped into known and used configurations. Here is a deathstar rarely seen:

Phoenix Rising

Asurmen; Eldrad; 10 Dire Avengers; Exarch Shimmershield 770
Wave Serpent w/Twin-linked Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Catapult, Holo-fields


2x 5 Dire Avengers; 470
2x Wave Serpent w/Twin-linked Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields

2x 8 Warp Spiders 342
5 Warp Spiders 95

Nightspinner; Shuriken Cannon; Crystal Targeting Matrix; Holo-fields 165

So this list is a lot trickier than first glance. You have plenty of AI. AT and AA but what makes it tick? Eldrad gets to re-deploy D# + 1 units. Let me repeat that. He gets to redeploy those warp spiders ( if they start on the board) and those wave serpents. We also have a lvl 4 psyker here who can really buff the unit up. Yep. Now he cannot be your warlord. Who is then? Asurman is a beast. He gets D3 warlord traits and there are gems to be mined there. This is apart from a great weapon for shooting ( Eldrad is no slouch either) a #+ inv in challenges, EW and the ability to ID with his soulrazor. You don't want to attack the squad (overwatch will kill you if the characters do not) and you cannot let the squad go about wrecking havoc. A dilemma for sure.  

The remainder of the list is pure support. Everything can really move to. Battle Focus is an immense advantage and with redeploy starting the Spiders on the table is very feasible. Now, look at the Nightspinner. It is a suicide machine for first blood. Supported by those fast moving Spiders it is really a giant distraction and threat at the start of the game. It becomes a dangerous game of choices for your opponent and that is what you need in the list. Now the smallest unit of spiders is bait - get something to attack, hit and run and let the spinner do its damage.

One last note - we had a long discussion in chat about this list. The deathstar is not the best cc unit. It is not the most durable deathstar. It is not the most shooty deathstar.  All that said it has nuances to it that make it quite good non-the-less. No, you cannot guarantee fortune or invisibility on it. You could indeed get shafted with your powers. But the odds are pretty good that the unit will get what it needs to do its work and in the end you have 3 serpents and a nightspinner and spider spam to fall back on. Dire Avengers with an Eldrad buff are killing maybe 5 Meqs with shooting if they are lucky. That is not impressive but they can stay out of charge range and are durable enough to survive the counter fire. On the charge or being charged they have Asurmen (also have a power weapon and counter-charge but meh). They will also kill 2 Meqs when charged (overwatch) so they are good against the average unit. But really you take them for Eldrad amd Asurmen and the Wave Sepent.

Enjoy.

Okey, im reading this topic for a long time and i think now is the time to write some crap here, so if u doesn't matter my warhammer teories, i will write for a time here. I hope you enjoy .

First of all, i must apology for my bad grammar. I'm still learning english, and i need some practice for writting and speaking in this languaje. So, sorry if i dont write correctly!

Now, Going to the topic, i want write and speak about Double beast star.

It is useful use more than one unit of beast? What character we should include for them?

It can be responded by one unique word: depends. Why? Let me explain.

It depends if you want to get Dark Eldar or Eldar in primary detachment. If you want Eldar is no choice, you must use only one unit of beast. But if you use Dark Eldar you can choose more than one unit.
Eldar character give to beast (and probably to the army) more support than Dark Eldar character. Doble Farseer, Eldrad, Karandras are simple choices than buff your army considerably.
But if you want get Dark Eldar for primary Detachment, you only can get one choice. It is one of the motives than people get Eldar for primary detachment. Well, characters and the rest of the army, Eldar do all the Dark Eldar work better than Dark Eldar. Except kill R6+ monstruose creatures probably.

For me, the real reason to use double beast pack, is the confusion and the decision making. Two big units of beast is a real pain. You know in the turn 2 probably you will be assaulted for a lot of things. Lot of attacks, and lot of rending attacks. Its nice, for us at least.
Surely, our opponent cant kill two full beast pack in a sample turn. This is the key. Survive for eat them in our second turn.

Monstrous creatures dont scare us, infantery dont scare us, vehicules dont scare us, except posterior blindaje 12 or land raiders. The only things can scare us is the flyers, especially dragons.

So with that in mind, we can kill everything in the table except flyers. They really frak us a lot.
Two double beast need lot of support, but our points is out with two big units (around 600 points expend). And if you count all of the character you need, you probably expend around 1000 points in the two units. Lot of points.

In my last game i was playing two units of beast, like this:

- Vect
- Eldrad
- 5 Beast, 20 Khymeras, 2 Razorwing

- Baron
- 5 Beast, 15 Khymeras, 4 Razorwing.

I played against Dark Angels Ravenwing full bikes. I win in the turn 4 because i destroy all of my oponent units. They dont have enought fire power to kill both of beastpacks.

My problem is probably the vehicles and flyers as i said.
To support my beast, i choice a unit of dark reapers with exarch (AA missile launcher), Bastion with Icarus and swooping hawks. Why? Because with dark reapers i can kill all the bikes easily, AP3 and ignore jink cover. And exarch can control icarus cannon to do a simple big shot.
Swooping hawks is for vehicules. Haywire granades are great for destroy land raiders and some other stuff. The big grenade is very good to kill light infantery in cover.

So, after all the text, i want to ask you the next: Are the double beast pack useful?
If they are, what units we should get to support them?
And the last, what characters you will include in your beast?

Sorry if the post is too long. If you like post like that, i will translate some post about Dark Eldar of my own blog (in spanish, of course xD).

See you guys!

Baron Pompadur wrote:

Okey, im reading this topic for a long time and i think now is the time to write some crap here, so if u doesn't matter my warhammer teories, i will write for a time here. I hope you enjoy .

First of all, i must apology for my bad grammar. I'm still learning english, and i need some practice for writting and speaking in this languaje. So, sorry if i dont write correctly!

Now, Going to the topic, i want write and speak about Double beast star.

It is useful use more than one unit of beast? What character we should include for them?

It can be responded by one unique word: depends. Why? Let me explain.

It depends if you want to get Dark Eldar or Eldar in primary detachment. If you want Eldar is no choice, you must use only one unit of beast. But if you use Dark Eldar you can choose more than one unit.
Eldar character give to beast (and probably to the army) more support than Dark Eldar character. Doble Farseer, Eldrad, Karandras are simple choices than buff your army considerably.
But if you want get Dark Eldar for primary Detachment, you only can get one choice. It is one of the motives than people get Eldar for primary detachment. Well, characters and the rest of the army, Eldar do all the Dark Eldar work better than Dark Eldar. Except kill R6+ monstruose creatures probably.

For me, the real reason to use double beast pack, is the confusion and the decision making. Two big units of beast is a real pain. You know in the turn 2 probably you will be assaulted for a lot of things. Lot of attacks, and lot of rending attacks. Its nice, for us at least.
Surely, our opponent cant kill two full beast pack in a sample turn. This is the key. Survive for eat them in our second turn.

Monstrous creatures dont scare us, infantery dont scare us, vehicules dont scare us, except posterior blindaje 12 or land raiders. The only things can scare us is the flyers, especially dragons.

So with that in mind, we can kill everything in the table except flyers. They really frak us a lot.
Two double beast need lot of support, but our points is out with two big units (around 600 points expend). And if you count all of the character you need, you probably expend around 1000 points in the two units. Lot of points.

In my last game i was playing two units of beast, like this:

- Vect
- Eldrad
- 5 Beast, 20 Khymeras, 2 Razorwing

- Baron
- 5 Beast, 15 Khymeras, 4 Razorwing.

I played against Dark Angels Ravenwing full bikes. I win in the turn 4 because i destroy all of my oponent units. They dont have enought fire power to kill both of beastpacks.

My problem is probably the vehicles and flyers as i said.
To support my beast, i choice a unit of dark reapers with exarch (AA missile launcher), Bastion with Icarus and swooping hawks. Why? Because with dark reapers i can kill all the bikes easily, AP3 and ignore jink cover. And exarch can control icarus cannon to do a simple big shot.
Swooping hawks is for vehicules. Haywire granades are great for destroy land raiders and some other stuff. The big grenade is very good to kill light infantery in cover.

So, after all the text, i want to ask you the next: Are the double beast pack useful?
If they are, what units we should get to support them?
And the last, what characters you will include in your beast?

Sorry if the post is too long. If you like post like that, i will translate some post about Dark Eldar of my own blog (in spanish, of course xD).

See you guys!

If I may voice my opinion on the matter, it's an interesting approach you took with the beast pack there and you seem to support your pick quite well. However, I would hardly respond if I didn't have some points of notice about them.

First off, taking Eldrad and Vect with beast packs. The current "efficient" way to run a pack is to support it with Baron and a Farseer on a jetbike with the Shard of Anaris. Why? Because of the buffs and speed they supply. Eldrad and Vect are admirable characters, but bound to footslog if they don't join a unit with a dedicated transport (unless you have Vect bring his own). Beasts excel at speed and limiting them to the speed of their slowest character would be silly. Aside from that, Baron and Farseer make the unit fearless, add some buffs, give them grenades, can keep up with them and an assortment of nice things like that.

Secondly, a second beast pack would require you to do roughly the same to make them more viable. As mentioned previously, if this is what works for you, great! But this causes some issues: 1. They're far from as powerful as the other beastpack which is kitted out with it's two most fitting HQ characters. 2. They aren't making their points back as effectively due to the lack of buffs, which means they are more "expensive" in a calculated points sense. 3. To copy a Baron/Farseer pack, you'd need an Autarch Sathonyx copycat. Which means taking a second Eldar HQ which you can't if you're running two Dark Eldar Fast Attack units. Of course taking dual Beastpack means the opponent will have a much harder time gunning them down and you could even use them to shield each other. But do take in mind this also means that one pack will be reliant on the other.

Thirdly, I love your pick of Dark Reapers. They're a sexy unit. And unless the opponent is boasting some nasty template firepower will surely make their points back. But might I recommend taking some other versatile units instead of the second beastpack? Or, as I mentioned in my Triple Tango Dual Deathstar list, take Karandras with Grotesques. They're just about as tough as a beastpack, albeit not as fast, but they can infiltrate which makes them a valuable asset for sure. Plus, judging by your choice of Eldrad and Vect, I'm sure you're used to the 6" walking distance the grotesques will have.

Anyway, I hope to see your continued presence on the forums, I'd love to see you better develop your English since you do seem to have ideas worth discussing by all of us equally and it'd be lovely to have you do so clearly and concisely. Keep it up and I hope I have been of any use in regards to your concept. (Hint: Use TDC chat, talking it alot might help grasping a better understanding... Plus, it's just fun to use the frontpage's chatbox)